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Billet compressor wheels

Posted by asrdave, Jan 27, 2012

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  1. JusMX141

    JusMX141 Moderator

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    Proof otherwise of how adding a second larger hole to a thrust plate would keep the pressure within the cartridge the same....especially when you're talking about feeding from the head, which has variables which can limit oil quantity such as whether the deck surface has been machined or not.
     

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  2. 94awdcoupe

    94awdcoupe Proven Member

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    first this turbo clearly failed with zero contact damage. so without even checking the bearings we can tell oiling was not the problem. second I have run every turbo under the sun on the 4g63 and I always use the original factory oil feed. I have yet to have anything but perfect long lasting results on all my builds. third there are about 300 places oil pressure is lost in the cylinder head without any effect on oil pressure to turbo. you think by adding a tiny .030 extra hole on thrust is gonna have a significant difference on oil to the bearings. I really dont know how to answer that. its complete rubbish. 100% not true.
     

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  3. JusMX141

    JusMX141 Moderator

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    :confused:

    Much like an engine, a well-oiled turbo doesn't seize.

    The factory head feed line has a .070" restrictor in the banjo end at the turbo...so another .030" hole to the thrust plate would definitely change the oiling structure if you're already reducing it to .070" at the turbo.

    Believe what you want- I've definitely had customers use the factory feed on MHI turbos with upgraded thrust hardware and had them fail, then moved the feed to the filter housing after the turbo is repaired and never had another oil-related failure. Just posting my experience, not looking for a pointless debate by calling what you're posting "rubbish".
     

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  4. Justin_l_

    Justin_l_ Proven Member

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    The compressor wheel was slightly seized on the shaft, and clearly spun. It was TQ properly with a calibrated snap on TQ wrench. The back of the wheel had marring from spinning, but there is also marking on the turbo behind the wheel where it was rubbing. Assuming from where the thrust plate had worn and allowed play.

    Facts as I know them
    Oil run VR-1 20/50 non synthetic
    Oil pressure at idle around 10psi at the head
    Oil pressure at 5000 rpm around 45psi at the head
    Factory OEM internals
    Fed from the head with a -4 an line with inline filter, filter was clean.
    Pics of thrust plate and turbine shaft

    B6D6A59F-0E5A-44E9-8CCC-314F1A490D9B-9416-000006A96102F2DF_zps22020e5b.jpg

    E341D924-1EE7-418C-B0C2-91D76C5DB080-9416-000006A96C338ADA_zpsff7a2383.jpg

    89E7EB3D-2FC7-479A-9D68-FB8B30F6D8D0-9416-000006A9ED9F79D5_zpsa1155f70.jpg

    4F6EFF4F-9047-412D-AADC-096FD49AE66B-9416-000006AA1FC97EEB_zps40f91670.jpg
     

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  5. JusMX141

    JusMX141 Moderator

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    Thrust wear allowed the wheel to hit the cover; the force of the wheel hitting the cover made the turbine shaft spin inside the wheel. When this happens the shaft almost ALWAYS bends.
     

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  6. Justin_l_

    Justin_l_ Proven Member

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    This is the best I can do with my phone but their are no marks from it rubbing, also you can see the turning machine marks on the edges of the blades, another indicator that the wheel wasn't in contact with the cover.

    7467CF97-810D-4B23-934D-83BBAFACFFC0-9416-000006B09F007748_zps468a4aae.jpg

    If I had access to a v block and indicator I would check the shaft for roundness.
     

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  7. JusMX141

    JusMX141 Moderator

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    Well damn....now I'm baffled. Why would the wheel spin on the shaft if it didn't make contact with the cover?

    Any chance you tweaked the shaft a little when installing the new wheel (tightening the locknut) and it progressively got worse until the backside of the wheel contacted the center housing?
     

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  8. Justin_l_

    Justin_l_ Proven Member

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    Anything is possible, but like I said I don't have the tools available to check. I don't think I did but I can't say no for sure.
     

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  9. 94awdcoupe

    94awdcoupe Proven Member

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    the wheel clearly shows no contact. that tells me the wheel flew apart fiirst. which then took thrust out from extreme imbalance at high turbo speed.

    the .070 restrictor is before the turbo. so adding an additional .030 hole on thrust does absolutely nothing to change how much flows through that .070 hole. just basic science.
     

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  10. LandSpeed-DSM

    LandSpeed-DSM Proven Member

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    Just "basic science" is actually a function of fluid flow and how oil actually travels inside a turbo CHRA.. not basic in the least.

    What appears to have escaped you is that because of the upstream volume flow restriction you have only X amount intended to feed the original cartridge's oiling system design - with one orifice.

    You have now got two orifices and more cross section for the same volume to travel through. Dropping the volume through the original hole as well as the pressure it would have been under in the original design.

    There is a reason the stock 2G feed line is off the OFH. Because you disagree with something, does not make your anecdotes the same as facts or data.
     

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  11. JusMX141

    JusMX141 Moderator

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    I've seen plenty of turbos with entire compressor blades missing which still made boost despite being noisy, and never locked up, seized, or suffered a thrust failure. A tiny piece missing from an exducer tip isn't going to cause a catastrophic failure.

    The fact that the compressor spun on the shaft tells me it had to contact something as this is not a product of normal operation if the nut is properly-torqued and the shaft isn't bent during assembly.

    Since the cover isn't showing contact, the only other possibility is the wheel backed itself into the center housing from thrust wear on the face of the thrust plate...opposite of what we normally see with wear on the inside of the plate where the oiling hole is. It likely contacted the center housing which stalled the wheel, caused the shaft to spin inside the wheel's bore, and likely bent the turbine shaft in the process. It's the only theory which would explain the odd wear to the extended-tip portion of the wheel where it backed into the 68mm groove in the center housing.
     

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  12. sqr

    sqr Proven Member

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    I can see the manufactures markings right be low where the nut goes. My 6 blade kts is marked there. I have about 5k miles on mine. It defiantly woke my car up a little. If does have the kts markings, make a warranty claim on it and see what happens.
     
  13. Justin_l_

    Justin_l_ Proven Member

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    It is marked there. Hard to read but I believe it is KTS MFS D655C M

    529362F0-DAC5-46ED-A8EE-F78302F350BF-9647-000006CA67C748F8_zpsaeaa6f47.jpg
     

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  14. blackrosenova40

    blackrosenova40 Proven Member

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    I actually drilled a third hole in my thrust plate. I switched my oiling feed to my oil filter housing which has upwards of 90psi. Works rock solid with an extended tip 20g wheel and a td06sl2 turbine wheel (9blade) at 37 psi.


     

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  15. 94awdcoupe

    94awdcoupe Proven Member

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    there is not enough evidence yet to determine exactly what happen . but it looks like same result as post 297. the extended tip 20g it too big to use with stanadard thrust. the thrust wore out. but not so much that either wheel made conntact with housings. so its a mystery why the compressor has chips in it. it clearly spun on turbine shaft. maybe nut wasnt torqued enough? the cjips cannot be foriegn object damage. it would damage on way in not on way out.
     

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  16. RWD4G63

    RWD4G63 Proven Member

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    This makes complete sense to me.

    I always tell my customers to feed their turbos from the OFH, and if they already know their pressures are really high, to use a -3 feed line instead of a -4. Most people don't have an issue just running a straight -4 though with moderate oil pressure.

    These KTS wheels are plenty strong, and have seen extended 40psi usage and 50psi a couple times on Tyler's 3076 extended tip wheel in the J-pipe cover, where it sees surge. There is no reason for them to break besides contact with something. Tyler's turbo also has the upgraded thrust hardware. Now if we were talking about a Batmowheel... Hahahha.
     
  17. 94awdcoupe

    94awdcoupe Proven Member

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    compressor wheel cant back itself into the center housing. a standard 20g run on 5h wheel will have 80psi back pressure at 29psi boost. the turbine wheel is always pushing in the direction of compressor cover. and even if this turbo defied physics and had no back pressure, it wouldnt explan the chip on wheel. backing the wheel into the housing is not gonna magically make chip fly off the tip of wheel were there is no contact. my guess is he didnt picture back of compressor wheel because there is not damage to it.

    studying pics closer the thrust damage is key here. the heat is centered around the inner thrust . and the thrust is broken open. it seems the the smallest thrust washer over heated and shattered. the pieces heated the center of thrust, broke the thrust and gouged the shaft on way out. applying enough brakes to shaft to spin comressor wheel on shaft.
     

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  18. RWD4G63

    RWD4G63 Proven Member

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    Justin, was this a TD05 20G?

    Anyone think that the turbine/compressor match could have anything to do with this? If Justin's turbo was indeed a TD05 turbine, it seems that they are the only ones having issues, I haven't seen anyone running a TD06SL2 or TD06H have issues.
     
  19. Justin_l_

    Justin_l_ Proven Member

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    It started life as a TD05, changed to TD06 with the billet wheel and a new cover.
     

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  20. RWD4G63

    RWD4G63 Proven Member

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    Oh well never mind then haha.
     
  21. JusMX141

    JusMX141 Moderator

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    The wear to the face of the thrust plate would beg to differ. ;)

    I have a couple T25 cores at the shop with thrust plates that have defied the laws of physics as well.
     

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  22. LandSpeed-DSM

    LandSpeed-DSM Proven Member

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    Someone who has illustrated barely a layman's understanding of "basic science" should probably not try and discuss the laws of physics as they imagine them to be..

    Also: Good to know that every setup in existence that features an MHI TD05H-20G will have a 2.75:1 Drive-Boost Ratio, without exception.

    I dun got learned today, ayup.

    *spits*

    *adjusts crotch*
     

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  23. Justin_l_

    Justin_l_ Proven Member

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    Not trying to hide anything, as stated there was damage to the back of the wheel.
    E129E4BB-9249-4358-A73F-5D81B6B506DE-10102-0000072B8DF94B9F_zps45e6df66.jpg
     

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  24. JusMX141

    JusMX141 Moderator

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    ^ Never rubbed the center housing, but it definitely rubbed the seal plate....so there was definitely thrust wear on the face of the thrust plate, and the wheel definitely was loaded inward at some point.

    Was your BOV working properly? Ever notice any full-throttle surge?
     

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  25. Justin_l_

    Justin_l_ Proven Member

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    Tial 50mm BOV working properly, no surge.
     

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