Big T28 Turbo

[herostar]

Manual boost controller, Fuel pump upgrade, 2.5" or 3" downpipe, 2.5" or 3" testpipe or highflow cat, 2.5" or 3" catback exhaust. Port your own or purchase a ported 02 housing for sure, ported Exhaust manifold and ported turbine housing optional. Thats it for 15 psi. And of course the EVOIII 16g turbo. This gives you a lot of room to grow powerwise later, with no penalty in lag or cost. Fuel injectors, Fuel computer, FMIC, etc can come later when you plan on upping the boost.

You'll also want an aftermarket BOV, so you can hold your 15psi... you can get a dave brode UIP and a 1g bov for under a hundred bucks... I did, best purchase I've made. Still use it today actually.

 

[Generation X]

The original T28 from Forced Performance flows alot more than a 14b, flows about the same as a small 16G, maybe a touch more. The FPBig28 has a revised turbine wheel that flows more than the original FPt28/28. People claim another 20-30 h.p. going from a FPt28/28 to a FPbig28 but I don't believe it myself.
Compressor and Turbine housings have always been the original T25 for all of the DSM T28s, just machined for the larger compressor and turbine wheels.

I'm looking at my datalog (FPt28/28) and I get 15 psi in 3rd gear by 2950 rpm. Looking at a well tuned EVOIII 16g datalog I'm seeing 15 psi in 3rd gear by 3050 rpm. EVOIII 16g spools as fast as any T28. Aside from an easy install, the EVOIII 16g has made all the T28 turbos obsolete in terms of performance, IMHO.

Until I see more 2g's that are running the evo 16g with faster times over at dsmtimes.org I will believe that statement. They have all been 1g's except for a couple of 2g's that are running 6 bolts with the 1g tb, intake manifold and 1g higher flowing head. The FP Big28 is a whole different animal with a set of cams. Also... I would tend to think that if the evo 16g was that awesome of a turbo it would cost more than it does brand new.

 

[DSMeclipse4G63]

How can the killer be a killer if the Big 16g compressor doesn't flow more than the T28? The Big t28 or whatever everbody calls them already has a compressor wheel that flows 550 cfm. The Big 16g wheel is no upgrade for it..

wrong the b16g flows 550cfms same as a killer...

Maybe a bigger TD05 compressor housing, td05 turbine housing, and td05 turbine wheel are better but not the compressor wheel. At this point why not have them drop in a 20g compressor wheel while your at it?.

ok the tdo5 compressor housing is smaller then the garret, so Im guessing youve never seen them side by side in person. Oh an they both have 7cm turbine housings, and the killer is basically b16g guts in a garret housing.

To the original poster, any T28 is a great upgrade, with the 360* thrust bearing it's extremely durable, flows enough for 375-400 crank h.p. tuned out, quick spool up, easy to install, and now is relatively inexpensive ($719 new, $599 using your t25). I've owned both a 16g or t28, buy the one that fits easier and is cheaper, they are that close in performance and durability.

this I will agree with you...the hp numbers are a little off but that the point of a t28, to give 16g power at lower spools...while still holding boost to redline. I dont understand the confusion on the flow rates of these turbos, its really simple:
14b 400cfm?
small16g 505cfm
t28 505cfm
t28 killer 550cfm
bigt28 550cfm
big16g 550cfm
evo3 550cfm

They all flow the same basic flow rates in their catagories(t28/s16g, big28/big16g) but the internals are waht change the characteristics. a t28 killer is to a big t28 as a evo3 is to a big16g, same flow chart but better internals for better top end/ spool and slightly better operation. The evo and killer are reworked to gain a little more hp then the older versions, but still remain somewhat similar. All these turbos minus the 14b were made for direct bolt on for 1g's and 2gs to make the same basic impact on performance, while making ease of install, comparing these turbos is only made by hair splitting weenies...thats how close they are in performance.
ANdrew

 

[toojung2die]

I upgraded my T25 to a FP Big28 in August '04. I have minimal mods (see profile). I like the Big28. The lag is only slightly longer than the stock T25 (3K rpm vs 2.5K rpm), it hits much harder and holds the boost to redline. This turbo along with a 1g bov have made the biggest difference I've seen so far. Plus, installation only took a couple of hours. I'm happy with my decision.

 

[pboglio]

A new turbo comes out that has OEM reliability, been improved upon over some 15 years in previous design iterations, was purpose designed for WRC rally competition, costs $150 less than the T28, has higher efficiency islands, has 65 cfm more choke flow, has almost identical spool to a T28. And you want to stick with the other turbo? I like the T28, I own one on a well supported setup, but come on already. I don't need a bunch of DSMers to post time slips. Fricken Mitsubishi decided AGES ago that the small 16g wheel (similar to a T28 wheel) was limiting the power output and designed the EVOIII 16g to give it the competitive edge it needed in WRC, and they have an absolutely ENORMOUS R&D budget for their racing program.

The T28, FPt28/28, and FPBig28 are all great turbos with OEM like durability under severe operating conditions. I personally like the Forced Performance T28 version alot because of their upgraded 360* thrust bearing. I think to get the most out of one you need to throw all of the supporting mods at it (i.e. Cams, remove MAF, full 3" exhaust, FMIC, racing fuel, etc.). I run 20 psi daily on pump and 24 psi and 100 octane and over the course of 5 years and 60,000 miles NEVER have had any reliability problem whatsoever with the turbo. Forced Performance builds turbos to last, but so does Mitsubishi. I don't like the boost drop off at high rpm even with the high spring rated wastegate upgrade, something that NEVER happened on my clipped 16g, but thats something that won't hurt the turbo, quite the contrary. They look stock, sound stock, install like stock. But they were never an inexpensive turbo, for reasons I can understand. The T28s are now outperformed and outpriced by the EVOIII 16g, I call that being outclassed. People see the writing on the wall, maybe thats the reason why Forced Performance has dropped their FPbig28 to $719. If FP could get their hands on a Garrett compressor that could match the EVO III 16g then it would be a different story. But they haven't as of yet.

 

[DSMeclipse4G63]

yes a evo3 will slightly out perform a bigt28, but not by much. a t28killer is the garret equivilant of the evo3 in some sorts(same flow as a bigt28 but better top end and nore efficient). the evo 3 will have slightly better top end and will make a bit more hp then a killer but the killer will make more torque, and respond a little better. All in all like I said the difference will be minimal. Ive owned a ported and cliped b16g car and driven in a t28 killer car and only felt a slight difference on the top end and spool...if any at all.

 

[Black95TSIawd]

yes a evo3 will slightly out perform a bigt28, but not by much. a t28killer is the garret equivilant of the evo3 in some sorts(same flow as a bigt28 but better top end and nore efficient). the evo 3 will have slightly better top end and will make a bit more hp then a killer but the killer will make more torque, and respond a little better. All in all like I said the difference will be minimal. Ive owned a ported and cliped b16g car and driven in a t28 killer car and only felt a slight difference on the top end and spool...if any at all.

a big16g wheel is not all too efficient. A small 16g would be a better choice. I hope a BigT28 is more efficient then a big16g.

 

[DSMeclipse4G63]

a big16g wheel is not all too efficient. A small 16g would be a better choice. I hope a BigT28 is more efficient then a big16g.

yeah the b16g wheels are around low 70 percentile efficency range...

 

[pboglio]

I remember a guy on DSMtalk who slapped on the EVOIII 16g and picked up 3 lb/min (~30 h.p.) over a Big16g (flow identical to a Big28) with NO boost increase or any other change. But the biggest advantage of an EVOIII 16g is that it will run boost pressures that the Big16g simply cannot attain. This is the biggest problem on small turbos, keeping the boost up at higher rpms. Physically they can't do it, compressor maps and real life prove it out. Guys are running EVO's at 25-26 psi up to redline with little difficulty, something a small 16g or T28 would physically be near impossible to do. This is why the EVO is miles ahead of all the other smaller turbos. I really wouldn't be surprised to see a DSM knock out 500 crank h.p. out of one, its only 4.5 lb/min (~45 h.p.) behind a 20g.

 

[Generation X]

A new turbo comes out that has OEM reliability, been improved upon over some 15 years in previous design iterations, was purpose designed for WRC rally competition, costs $150 less than the T28, has higher efficiency islands, has 65 cfm more choke flow, has almost identical spool to a T28. And you want to stick with the other turbo? I like the T28, I own one on a well supported setup, but come on already. I don't need a bunch of DSMers to post time slips. Fricken Mitsubishi decided AGES ago that the small 16g wheel (similar to a T28 wheel) was limiting the power output and designed the EVOIII 16g to give it the competitive edge it needed in WRC, and they have an absolutely ENORMOUS R&D budget for their racing program.

The T28, FPt28/28, and FPBig28 are all great turbos with OEM like durability under severe operating conditions. I personally like the Forced Performance T28 version alot because of their upgraded 360* thrust bearing. I think to get the most out of one you need to throw all of the supporting mods at it (i.e. Cams, remove MAF, full 3" exhaust, FMIC, racing fuel, etc.). I run 20 psi daily on pump and 24 psi and 100 octane and over the course of 5 years and 60,000 miles NEVER have had any reliability problem whatsoever with the turbo. Forced Performance builds turbos to last, but so does Mitsubishi. I don't like the boost drop off at high rpm even with the high spring rated wastegate upgrade, something that NEVER happened on my clipped 16g, but thats something that won't hurt the turbo, quite the contrary. They look stock, sound stock, install like stock. But they were never an inexpensive turbo, for reasons I can understand. The T28s are now outperformed and outpriced by the EVOIII 16g, I call that being outclassed. People see the writing on the wall, maybe thats the reason why Forced Performance has dropped their FPbig28 to $719. If FP could get their hands on a Garrett compressor that could match the EVO III 16g then it would be a different story. But they haven't as of yet.

As I said earlier do the comparing from over at the times list at dsmtimes.org and you will see in comparison, and I also hope your referring to the older version FP T28/28 and not the latest FP Big28, because it's only been out now for about 3 years compared to over a decade for the 16g series of turbos.

 

[pboglio]

As I said earlier do the comparing from over at the times list at dsmtimes.org and you will see in comparison, and I also hope your referring to the older version FP T28/28 and not the latest FP Big28, because it's only been out now for about 3 years compared to over a decade for the 16g series of turbos.

I looked. I noticed small 16g's are laying down some nice trap speeds, 115 mph average among the top ones. The Big 16gs are around 117 mph, the EVOIII's are also in the mid 117mph and they just came out within the last 1-2 years. I expect full weight EVOIII 16g's to break 120 mph, the Big16g's look like they are stuck around 117mph. I noticed a couple T28's and their trap speeds weren't higher than 112mph, which I know is under represented.

I also noticed DSMer's like to strip weight, makes it real hard to compare one turbo to another. My viewpoint is simple engineering, give me a compressor map of two turbos. A compressor map is a controlled "quarter mile" run of an ACTUAL turbo running on a test rig. If one shows 38 lb/min choke flow and another 42.5 lb/min with similar surge lines, I know which one I'm going to buy. The surge lines give me an idea of maximum spool up capability, the efficiency lines tell me how much exhaust backpressure my turbo will make at such and such airflow ratings, the airflow give me an idea of the top end power output. Very much like an engine dyno graph and very informative.

I'm also right now looking at the datalog of a very fast EVOIII 16g. How a DSM running a 16g sized turbo can accelerate from 0-123 mph in 11.8 seconds is beyond me, maybe he had a speedometer error. Thats the turbo for me

 

[Generation X]

I looked. I noticed small 16g's are laying down some nice trap speeds, 115 mph average among the top ones. The Big 16gs are around 117 mph, the EVOIII's are also in the mid 117mph and they just came out within the last 1-2 years. I expect full weight EVOIII 16g's to break 120 mph, the Big16g's look like they are stuck around 117mph. I noticed a couple T28's and their trap speeds weren't higher than 112mph, which I know is under represented.

I also noticed DSMer's like to strip weight, makes it real hard to compare one turbo to another. My viewpoint is simple engineering, give me a compressor map of two turbos. A compressor map is a controlled "quarter mile" run of an ACTUAL turbo running on a test rig. If one shows 38 lb/min choke flow and another 42.5 lb/min with similar surge lines, I know which one I'm going to buy. The surge lines give me an idea of maximum spool up capability, the efficiency lines tell me how much exhaust backpressure my turbo will make at such and such airflow ratings, the airflow give me an idea of the top end power output. Very much like an engine dyno graph and very informative.

I'm also right now looking at the datalog of a very fast EVOIII 16g. How a DSM running a 16g sized turbo can accelerate from 0-123 mph in 11.8 seconds is beyond me, maybe he had a speedometer error. Thats the turbo for me

Hmmm...I don't know about 120 traps, maybe. Hell that would be 50 trim territory, for a hellava lot cheaper. But for each his own I guess. I respect your choice, but I think I'll stick with my FP Big28 for now. If I decided to swap out turbos again, which is what's so killer about our cars, it will more than likely be an FP Green or some type of 50 trim variant.

 

[pboglio]

No doubt, the FPbig28 is a great turbo. My problem is I'm fast running out of compressor flow, I've got no choice but to upgrade. I've yet to install my full 3" exhaust system and swapping my HKS 264 exhaust cam for the 272 cam and then I'm out of mods. My goal is 420 crank h.p. on the FPt28/28 and then I need to make the switch to the EVO. I like fast spool up, so no 50 trims for me

 

[herostar]

Swapping from a fully supported BIG28 to an EVOIII 16g, will not be your dream upgrade. It will be a little better, but considering the work/parts/money that go into switching, it's just not worth it. If you're looking for an upgrade from the BIG28 go for the L1R or a 50-trim variant with a smaller exhaust housing. Big28's belong on 2g's, 16g's belong on 1g's.

 

[98eclipseRS]

No doubt, the FPbig28 is a great turbo. My problem is I'm fast running out of compressor flow, I've got no choice but to upgrade. I've yet to install my full 3" exhaust system and swapping my HKS 264 exhaust cam for the 272 cam and then I'm out of mods. My goal is 420 crank h.p. on the FPt28/28 and then I need to make the switch to the EVO. I like fast spool up, so no 50 trims for me

fast spool so you don't like 50 trims??? Uh, our basic 50 trim in our turbo kit spools full boost at 3400 rpm, Port the shit of of all your exhaust parts or get a ball bearing 50 trim and I don't see why it couldn't be knocked down to close to 3150 or so whereabouts. If you ahve cams and the works you should be able to take your car to 8.5k when that is your power band I don't really see how low of spools you expect to see out of a large turbo, that will hands down outflow any 16g without question.

 

[herostar]

Not to make anyone jelous, but my 60-1 spooled 22 psi by 3500 rpm with a stock 2g head, unported ex. mani, and unported o2 housing. That was w/ my 2.3L, but still.... Big turbos can spool fast if you have the right supporting mods.

 

[ShapeGSX]

Until I see more 2g's that are running the evo 16g with faster times over at dsmtimes.org I will believe that statement. They have all been 1g's except for a couple of 2g's that are running 6 bolts with the 1g tb, intake manifold and 1g higher flowing head. The FP Big28 is a whole different animal with a set of cams. Also... I would tend to think that if the evo 16g was that awesome of a turbo it would cost more than it does brand new.

So how many Big28s have run 11s? I know of one, and that was an FP shop car.

I know my car has run several 11 second passes. Probably about 10 passes in the 11s. [email protected] is the best one. And my car isn't lightened at all.

The Evo 16G is such an awesome turbo because it is so cheap.

 

[ShapeGSX]

this I will agree with you...the hp numbers are a little off but that the point of a t28, to give 16g power at lower spools...while still holding boost to redline. I dont understand the confusion on the flow rates of these turbos, its really simple:
14b 400cfm?
small16g 505cfm
t28 505cfm
t28 killer 550cfm
bigt28 550cfm
big16g 550cfm
evo3 550cfm

CFM flow rates are a load of crap. Use lb/min flow for a MASS flow rate.

 

[pboglio]

A 50trim is a nice turbo I'm sure, but it has some drawbacks. You can only spool a compressor so fast, the surge line dictates the maximum rate of spool. The 2.0L DSM motor can only knock out so much mass air flow BEFORE spool up. This means you could slap a tiny ass turbine housing on it and it would just surge that compressor all the way. I know, my T28 surges from 2000-2500 rpm, thats why I stay away from that rpm band like the plague. I sure as hell don't want to bring that surge zone into the 3000 rpm band, no way in hell. The EVOIII 16g actually has a BETTER surge line than even my T28. The "Disco Potato" name is given to that T28 because its got a wavy potato like surge line right around 15psi, right when you want to hit some major boost, the sucker delays a bit before it can get out of its surge zone. My old 16g would just shoot from 10psi to 21 psi like nothing, my T28 shoots up to 15psi fast, then delays as it works past its surge zone. The EVOIII 16g surge line is an almost vertical line.

When my car gets retired, its going into road course duty. By that time they'll have turbos that can knock out 500 h.p. and spool like the EVOIII 16g. I don't see why I should make life miserable by driving a laggy car, uh uh. I can barely stand the lag of my T28, and I'm hitting 15psi by 2950 rpm. When my car is ready to step beyond 470 crank h.p., then I'll consider a bigger turbo, but I'm not there yet.

 

[ShapeGSX]

The T28 that we use on DSMs is not called the Disco Potato. The Disco Potato is the GT28RS Garrett turbo.

 

[DSMeclipse4G63]

CFM flow rates are a load of crap. Use lb/min flow for a MASS flow rate.

most people dont understand lbs/min...but in that case my b16g was hitting 32.04lbs/min right before fuel cut, and although thats not alot, when it was at 25-32lbs/min my intestine left a mark on my spine. Im sure a better turbo would do more but damn for all the crap people here give small turbos like t28s and 16gs it pulled like a virgin raped ape

 

[ShapeGSX]

most people dont understand lbs/min...but in that case my b16g was hitting 32.04lbs/min right before fuel cut, and although thats not alot, when it was at 25-32lbs/min my intestine left a mark on my spine. Im sure a better turbo would do more but damn for all the crap people here give small turbos like t28s and 16gs it pulled like a virgin raped ape

My Evo III 16G hits 43 to 44lb/min when I am at the track. So add another 100hp to your car.

Were you using any airflow mangling devices like an AFC or a hacked MAF at all? That can lower airflow readings.

 

[Lord Khan]

Well, the FP BigT28 is the only turbo upgrade I've ever had, and I've only had it since early July, ran it lean on the highway (cause I don't have supporting fuel mods), killed it by the end of July, had FP rebuild it for $300 more dollars, and ever since then, have still been more than pleased with it http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131509. I run it from 15-17lbs street driveable (but I take it easy when holding redline at 17lbs now as not to lean out my engine again, and cook the turbo), and I absolutely love it. Say all you want about the Big T28 not being all this or that, but when you have a turbo like this in a second gen, especially on open road driving, it is just balls to walls fun as hell. My only problem is that I have NO suspension work done, so all I do is spin wheels when I try to drag on the street or at the track. The turbo is POW-ER-FUL. End of discussion. Does it have as much overall power as the EVO III, I seriously doubt it, but at the same time, it is a known fact that the EVO III 16G is SUPPOSED to be powerful. It is definately worth getting if your serious about holding higher boost, and getting even better track numbers, but its not the end all be all turbo either. The Big T28 is no joke either. Their both kick ass for our cars. I have yet to even unlock the potential of the turbo yet, as I have to rewire my fuel pump (I know, should have been done a long time ago), get an upgraded fuel pump, injectors, and SAFC.

Until then, I'm just enjoying touring with it, and picking with people on the streets. Its funny going up against rival cars on the street, and having a good run.

 

[pboglio]

The T28 that we use on DSMs is not called the Disco Potato. The Disco Potato is the GT28RS Garrett turbo.

Yes, I know that the FPBig28 is not the GT28RS ball bearing CHRA (i.e. Disco Potato). It does use the "Potato's" compressor wheel and turbine wheel (62trim 60mm). Its the compressor wheel that prompted the nickname. My turbo also uses the same compressor wheel, hence I use the term loosely although technically incorrect.

Why is CFM a load of crap? From an engineering point of view, he's correct in every way to use it. All turbo's are rated and tested at a standard atmospheric condition, which is usually given on the map. With this known, cfm or lb/min can be corrected when you run in NON standard atmospheric conditions for comparison sake. Our MAS sensor uses a form of velocity measurement heavily dependant on a known cross sectional area (i.e. VOLUMETRIC FLOW) and in conjuction with the temp sensor and barometer CALCULATES the massflow rate. No different from taking a cfm rating and multiplying by your standard atmospheric density to get massflow. Your precious massflowrate is actually a calculation of a MEASURED volumetric flowrate. Think about that before you start to chastise somebody for using the "wrong" system of units.

 

[ShapeGSX]

Then I should have stated that those CFM flow rates are a load of crap. How can two turbos with vastly different real world mass-flow rates have identical CFM flow rates?

t28 killer 550cfm
bigt28 550cfm
big16g 550cfm
evo3 550cfm

So every last one of those turbos flow the same amount of air through the compressor? No way. And how were these flow rates normalized? What temperature and inlet air pressure were used when it was "measured"? I put measured in quotes because personally I believe that the CFM rates listed in this post were probably just guesses. Perhaps one turbo actually got a rating (at who knows what temp and inlet or boost pressure), and someone at a vendor just said "eh, close enough" and published the same number on their web site.

The max lb/min of a compressor actually tells me something about how the turbo will perform.