big 16g or small 16g

[Vegas Smith]

so a good upgrade for a Big16G would be to purchase a td06 comp housing? and if so, where would you find one? maybe an old 20g housing? would they just bolt up?

 

[JayHass]

Originally posted by DCJ98GST
Jay

So you are saying that the big 16G wheel is efficient but it is matched with the wrong housing. Therefore all these compressor maps for all these various compressor wheels only are right if you use the same housing.

EXACTLY! Nevermind when you start playing with the turbine side. From what I understand *real* engineers take all the maps and calculate how they will enteract with one another and with which housing to calculate an end result and then test it on the bench.

We all like to think we have an understanding of turbo engineering, but believe me, when my friend who is a lead Garrett Engineer gets into the nitty gritty it's friggin rediculous. I know I don't know everything, but learning from him is a real eye opener. He calls Corkey Bell's book "cute" and a good "primer" for "beginners" and absolutely hates most turboshop counter monkeys.

I always wondered why the big16G wheel was so inefficient. I mean damn 71% max is pretty bad.

Yea it is. BUT I'd like to see that bad boy in a housing that is designed for it. If I'm not mistaken the 18G is up around 76%. I know the 20G is 77% and the small 16G is 76% so it would make sense to guestimate the wheel very similar to the 18G in a proper housing would be closer to the 76% range.

When we are comparing compressor housing what is significant? The three aspects that I can think of are: the A/R of the housing, the size of the inlet and discharge, and the flow area in the scroll ("A" part of A/R).

I'm going to be flat out honest with you and say that it goes WAY beyond 99.9% of all of our heads. You are talking hard core fluid dynamics and engineering.

I asked Rob about that and the most basic way he could explain it to me was they need to be aerodynamically compatible. He goes on to talk about F-Max and airspeeds, and tip speeds and blah blah blah blah...

 

[JayHass]

Originally posted by Vegas smith
so a good upgrade for a Big16G would be to purchase a td06 comp housing? and if so, where would you find one? maybe an old 20g housing? would they just bolt up?

Whoa man, slow down. No one has done any calculations on this, it was pure speculation.

 

[Vegas Smith]

haha....alright, all of the sudden speculation was turning into fact...ect. ok, back to earth.

 

[Vegas Smith]

but that is a really good idea. i always hear that the comp housing is too small for the wheel. so why dont they start putting bigger housings on? seems like if your hungry....you eat more food.

 

[JayHass]

Originally posted by Vegas smith
but that is a really good idea. i always hear that the comp housing is too small for the wheel. so why dont they start putting bigger housings on? seems like if your hungry....you eat more food.

Yep.

The only thing I can think is someone was trying to get more flow out of the 16G due to the fact it's a direct swap. I mean if you're going to go with a TD06 compressor housing...just go 20G. BUT for all the existing big 16G owners, this MIGHT be a way to get more power out of it.

 

[BaggedGalant]

Originally posted by BoostedTalonTS
Heavy Mitsubishi Industries's Big16G Turbo also comes with a 70mm Dia Hot side, the Small 16G has only a 60mm hot side... Some of the other differences might include a "twin-scroll" intake turbine design on the Big 16, vs the Small 16g, that has the same type of turbine design as your OE 14B, with only a single scroll impeller, not to mention, the same sized Cold side housing as your 14B...

-Happy with my BIG 16G (Porting, NO clip)

i believe you are using the word twin scroll incorrectly, twin scroll isnt referring to the dual fins of the compressor wheel...if you look at the exhuast housing where it meets the exhaust manifold, and you also look at the exhaust manifold in that spot, there are two holes instead of 1

the number 1 and 4 runners meet into 1 hole and the 2 and 3 runners into another hole...keeping a cleaner pattern of air pulses coming into the turbo to generate a smoother, more even spool

Originally posted by ChicagoGSX


Wow most of that post is wrong.
-Twin-scroll exhaust housing is only on the Big 16gs that come from the EVO I-III. The Big 16gs you buy for DSMs have the SAME 7cm^2 exhaust housing, unless you are one of the few with a 6cm^2.
-Both 16gs and all 14bs have the same TD05H Compressor housing. They are just slightly larger to fit the larger wheels of each. The Big 16g wheel is considered by some to be less efficient than the Small 16g.

before you go calling people wrong, the twin scroll exhaust housings and exhaust manifolds came on evo4-8's not 1-3's

 

[pianoman]

my cousin has a 90 tsi and i have a 90 gs-t we bought them at abou the same time and do the same mods at the same time, we thought it'd be cool just to see the diffrences between the fwd's and awd's. he has a small 16g clipped with 7cm and i have a big 16g clipped with a 7cm. we both have hacked air cans with k&n filters and are running 16psi. my big 16g pulls moderatly harder then his does, but his spools faster.......... now if only i could get 2 turbos one for low end and one for mid to high end.... still workin on that one.

 

[JayHass]

Originally posted by pianoman
my cousin has a 90 tsi and i have a 90 gs-t we bought them at abou the same time and do the same mods at the same time, we thought it'd be cool just to see the diffrences between the fwd's and awd's. he has a small 16g clipped with 7cm and i have a big 16g clipped with a 7cm. we both have hacked air cans with k&n filters and are running 16psi. my big 16g pulls moderatly harder then his does, but his spools faster.......... now if only i could get 2 turbos one for low end and one for mid to high end.... still workin on that one.

There are a lot of factors here that are not being taken into account.

What is the weight of the two cars? "pulling harder" can just mean "my car is lighter".

Also what degree clip? Who did it?

Clipping is not a precise science, it can vary which will affect spool and power output as well.

So can tune. Perhaps one car is pulling more timing than the other. This in a very mild form can be 10-15hp easily.

The only real way to do a comparison is to put the SAME car on the dyno back to back.

 

[Slowboy]

Small 16G:
7cm2 turbine housing
1.93"/49mm ExducerDiameter (in.)
2.20"/56mmInducer Diameter (in.)

Same compressor housing as 14B with a larger 16G compressor wheel that flows 512cfm about 77% efficient.

Big 16G:
7cm2 turbine housing
1.93"/49mm ExducerDiameter (in.)
2.20"/56mmInducer Diameter (in.) ------- posted by J hass

I think you may want to check your measurements.

Regards

Mike Huml

 

[JayHass]

Originally posted by Slowboy

I think you may want to check your measurements.

Why what did you get?

 

[Slowboy]

Jhass,

I need to read closer........ My bad. I thought you were giving out compressor wheels at first glance... Tell me to get bent next time and read a little closer.

Small 1.830/ 2.365 1.930/ 2.200
Big 16 G 1.892/ 2.680 1.930/ 2.200
EVO 1.9005/ 2.680 1.9325/ 2.2140

Regards

Mike Huml

 

[Vegas Smith]

geez slowboy, you probably hurt his feelings now....get bent man.

 

[Slowboy]

His feelings are incabable of being hurt

Mike Huml

 

[pneumo]

Thanks for the info, JayHass. I've been sitting here reading DSMTuners while sanding the scroll area inside my Big 16G compressor housing over the past few days. I wasn't entirely sure it would help until I read this post. Now I can't wait to put the turbo on the car and see what it'll do. But first I ought to put the 14b into the 12's.

 

[pianoman]

MY BAD HES GOT THE 6CM HOUSING ON HIS 16G, NICE SAAB QUOTE, I LAUGHED MY A$$ OFF WHEN I READ IT..............

 

[JayHass]

Originally posted by Slowboy
His feelings are incabable of being hurt

Mike Huml

WHAT BEEOOTCH!!! DON'T DISRESPECT ME G!.
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J/K

Thanks for clearing that up I was a big worried for a minute.

 

[dcskater82]

Originally posted by RamenPride


So you're saying both cars were setup EXACTLY the same??

Anyway, I went with the small 16G.

no not exactly the same, both pretty much stock, except for built motors, 3" exhaust on both, stock fuel shit on both, stock downpipes, no stock side mounts on both...very similar cars, but the big 16 pulls way harder then the small 16....unless the guy with the small 16 messed with someone and ####ed his tuning up? i dont know, but from my experience the big16 pulls harder, thats all im sayin...

 

[90AWDTalon]

Originally posted by dcskater82


no not exactly the same, both pretty much stock, except for built motors, 3" exhaust on both, stock fuel shit on both, stock downpipes, no stock side mounts on both...very similar cars, but the big 16 pulls way harder then the small 16....unless the guy with the small 16 messed with someone and ####ed his tuning up? i dont know, but from my experience the big16 pulls harder, thats all im sayin...

Two cars with the exact same setup can still differ, no cars all exactly the same, even from the factory.

 

[dcskater82]

ok well my bad blah blah whatever, all i know is that from WHAT IVE SEEN, the big 16g outperformed the small 16g, as far as whos quicker. maybe your damned flow charts and what not say differently, but oh well, thats what influenced me to get a big 16, anyways, i saw the difference in the two, and got what i wanted...either way, ill still be shitting on all these god forsaken hondas

 

[pianoman]

screw it just get a t3/t4 and forget about the 16g altogether.