1G Alright trans experts, how screwed am I?

[ThunderChild]

So been putting miles on the car since I got it back together (and not updating my build thread...). About 300 miles ago i took the driveshaft out to rebuild/upgrade, and tossed in my VCE, thinking i might dyno it just to see where the power is. Never got to do that, and decided to take it to a small car meet the other day with my buddy since he was taking his 2g.

Things were mellow, and it ended early, so my freind and I got ready to leave the lot, and he asked if I'd race him essentially. Well, sure why not?!? Keep in mind I've never launched this car yet, awd or fwd-mode, and really only get on the power after its rolling. Its droven fine, save the 1st/2nd grind when cold. Held revs to 4500, buddy honked 3 times, I slip the clutch in till it started to grab, dumped it and hit the throttle. Gripped great (for fwd) and lurched forward about 25 ft, then as I rolled the throttle on..."thunk" and free revving. Buddy blows by me and I coast to a stop, checking gauges and just making sure I didn't do motor damage. Car still goes into all gears and can hear the mechanicals working, just no drive. Shut off, check for leaks, nada. Thought "blew the VCE! no big, easy fix", as it had a questionable weld job.
Got a tow home (love AAA) and tore into it today. Popped the cover off the trans and...VCE is fine. Crap. After faring around trying to externally diagnose things, I decide to yank the trans out, and after taking the end cap and mid plate off, I find this...

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And this...

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So the center diff is toast, and whatever sleeve that the t-case output shaft goes through, is toast, spiral fractured down through the trans.

Since this is the first dsm trans I've had apart in a long time, I'm lookin for insight as to how much I'll have to replace?
I know the CD and sleeve will need replaced, the gears look fine and there is very little shavings and debris. What I don't know is, what's that sleeve attached to, and can I press it out?
I think the diff may have been damaged before, and I can tell the sleeve was cracked previously. Would also explain why it was hard to turn at times.

Plan at this point is to finish disassembly and inspection, weld the diff, possibly do a rebuild (synchros and bearings) myself, and that's it. I want to do a built trans, but I'd rather do that with the spare one I have and dump the major money on that along with the next motor and turbo setup.

 

[keltalon]

Take a look at your gears very closely and have them checked for cracks. You will be suprised how much damage debris floating around trans could cause. Other than that I think you are on the right track by building the spare trans the right way.

 

[pauleyman]

Ok so you broke the front diff drive. Pull it all apart, access damage, replace the center diff and that front drive.

 

[ThunderChild]

Thanks, the diff I'm not too worried about getting fixed. The front drive, as you call it, I have no idea where to source unless it's from another trans. I'll look around when I get some free time, but is that just a sleeve or is it a larger piece altogether? I'll see what I can find

I plan on going over the gear set very carefully once I get it apart, I don't necessarily mind having to pull the trans, just not every other day, haha.

Thanks for the replies and insight

Edit: so looking through the manual for the transmissions, looks like twicks is referring to the front output?

Either #56 from this pic:

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Or #49 from this pic:

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Best I can tell, it'll be #49, but I can check once I get the rest of the case apart. I'm also assuming I'll have to press the old pieces out if the diff and front bearings, as they're siezed in there.

 

[ThunderChild]

Took the trans apart the rest of the way, this thing had a jerk for an owner before I got it..

Front drive output snapped

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Reverse gear and synchros are all hammered to shyte..

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But overall the gears are decent, I don't see any crack or chips, but I'll be sending them out to be checked out sometime.

Hopefully my spare trans is usable, if so I'll be cleaning it up in and out, and putting it in with a welded diff for the time being. If costs aren't too high, I may shot-peen some of the parts to help them live slightly longer. Probably move the rest of my updates back to my build thread at a future date.

 

[pauleyman]

The first pic is a fwd trans. 2nd pic is awd part 49. The reverse gears almost always look like that If you rebuild this one get all of the excess rtv out of there. You will find some inside the trans shafts. Somebody didnt know what they were doing to use that much.

 

[ThunderChild]

The first pic is a fwd trans. 2nd pic is awd part 49. The reverse gears almost always look like that If you rebuild this one get all of the excess rtv out of there. You will find some inside the trans shafts. Somebody didnt know what they were doing to use that much.

That was mostly my thought, I was brainstorming if they could be re-faced, but they'd prolly need nitrided or something I guess?

And yes I plan on going through the parts thoroughly, I'll save this set for a built trans, and pull apart my spare to see if I can run it. I thought there was an excess of rtv in there as well.

 

[ThunderChild]

@twicks69 @pauleyman

Tore the spare trans apart tonight, has aluminum 5th gear shift fork and 2 lines in 5th gears, 5th is also larger secondary gear. Trans I pulled out if the car has std 3 lines in 5th gears and steel shift fork (busted front drive gear and CD).

Spare trans has good looking synchros and gears, good CD and front drive, would I be best off just using spare trans as a whole or mixing/matching parts from the two to get me by for now? Don't have the cash for a built trans atm. If so, what's better?

Will clean all the spare trans pieces, weld a diff, assemble and preload in best case as of now. Any guidance appreciated!

 

[pauleyman]

Why would you bother mixing and matching if spare trans is complete and in good shape?

 

[ThunderChild]

Mostly I was curious about the ratio differences, probably won't be a huge deal. 5th gear is lightly chipped on a couple teeth on the spare.

edit: the spare also has the old style organic material on the synchros, not wild about throwing it back in the car with them. going to get ahold of the shops and see if anyone has a reasonable cluster rebuild to get me by till i can afford a built trans.

 

[twicks69]

The 5th gears are not interchangeable.

You have a 1990 5th gearset (2 notches with aluminum shift fork) -- all those components would need to be used as a group with the matching 5th gear cover and case oil guide. If you use the 3 notch 5th gearset, same thing; matching components and matching 5th gear cover and case oil guide.

 

[ThunderChild]

The 5th gears are not interchangeable.

You have a 1990 5th gearset (2 notches with aluminum shift fork) -- all those components would need to be used as a group with the matching 5th gear cover and case oil guide. If you use the 3 notch 5th gearset, same thing; matching components and matching 5th gear cover and case oil guide.

Gotcha, that's what I was wondering. I've swapped 5th gears in other vehicles but wasn't sure if it was possible with these two units.

All 3 center diffs I have are shot, and combined with the other issues, I'm just going to save for a built setup. It is damn near impossible to get ahold of all the trans shops. So far I've only been able to speak with one, and as nice as the guy was, I wasn't left confident in choosing them.

What I'd like to do, is get a jacks ultimate ratio set, have the gears/shafts/bearings WPC treated, get a 4 spider and do the same thing (tre seems to have a good 4 spider).

Idk if it'd be even possible to get this done, as first I've got to make contact with the shops. Anyone have any recommendations?

I don't just wanna buy a "stage" tranny necessarily, and the wpc treatment is definitely something I want done to the internals, since I'm having to go the spendy route way ahead of schedule.

 

[twicks69]

Sorry if you tried calling me, I'm not taking any transmissions in currently with my back log.

What kind of power levels / goals are you going for? application of usage? rpm range / power band?

Regarding ratios, the Evo 3 input shaft is gone, the 1st gear is still available but you need the matching input shaft to work. the 91-92 style DSM and Evo 3 3/4 gearsets are still available, and the Evo 3 5th gearset is gone. the Evo 3 3/4 hub and slider is discontinued, I have like 2 left of them and then they are gone.

As for surface treatments, shot peening is the best bang for your buck as it's the only one that will increase the surface density of the gear without deformation. WPC is a micropeening process and has shown very limited durability increases in gears. cryotreatment has worked well for extending heat cycles of the gearset. REM has shown better temperatures from lower friction and works well for road racing or extended usage applications.

 

[ThunderChild]

Sorry if you tried calling me, I'm not taking any transmissions in currently with my back log.

What kind of power levels / goals are you going for? application of usage? rpm range / power band?

Regarding ratios, the Evo 3 input shaft is gone, the 1st gear is still available but you need the matching input shaft to work. the 91-92 style DSM and Evo 3 3/4 gearsets are still available, and the Evo 3 5th gearset is gone. the Evo 3 3/4 hub and slider is discontinued, I have like 2 left of them and then they are gone.

As for surface treatments, shot peening is the best bang for your buck as it's the only one that will increase the surface density of the gear without deformation. WPC is a micropeening process and has shown very limited durability increases in gears. cryotreatment has worked well for extending heat cycles of the gearset. REM has shown better temperatures from lower friction and works well for road racing or extended usage applications.

I believe I did try calling you, but believe me, I realize how busy everyone can get so no worries Actually jacks wrote me an email back today as well, so that's 3 replies so far. Any idea when you might be accepting new orders?

Intended use: weekend warrior/street car. Maybe 10-20 track passes/launches per year, the rest would be street duty.

Power level: currently "mostly" stock, but alot of supporting mods for more once I have link. I have a holset setup I'd like to put on once I'm more familiar with ecmlink, and would be shooting for 550-600whp, maybe 450-475wtq? That most likely won't be achieved till the new motor is in.

Rpm range: I'd like the ability to shift 9-10k if desired (I'm doing a 2.1 destroker later on), most would be 7500-8500, especially with current engine.

Gear ratios: I'm not too worried about changing them, I was only intending to go with the different ratios for strength reasons. If a std dsm gearset with some treatments would do fine, I don't mind keeping those ratios. I'd also like a strong 4 spider vs a welded center, and I'm most drawn to tre's and yours (tim).

Treatments: I've done little reading on REM finishing, but have done some research on wpc, and it seemed promising, tho expensive. If you'd recommend regular shot peeing over it, I'd be ok with that recommendation.

As for what I'd like from the trans as a whole: reliable, good shifting and hopefully not have to replace it for 3-5 years. I consider myself a competent driver and have driven manuals all my life, so I like to think I know how not to abuse a trans into an early grave.

In the end, doing a cheap rehash and a built trans later isn't practical, id rather just put the money in now and break the trans in on a mostly stock setup, then only have to worry about the motor/other parts after the fact.

If u want to or can give me a call, pm me for my #. Setting aside money for now, hoping to get something ordered in a month or two.

 

[twicks69]

I'll probably start taking transmissions in back around october realistically, I want to be fully caught up for once and not feel like I always have an insane backlog; it has been stressing me out pretty heavily.

Pretty much a stage 3 with 4-spider and shot peening would fit your application; you won't have any powerband at 9.5k-10k rpm anyways on that turbo; if you were running like a 74mm and larger turbo maybe then, but you aren't shooting for 1000+ horsepower. The DSM ratio gearset will handle it fine and will do the job for track time as well. Ideally, an Evo 3 1st gear and input shaft would be the best thing, but you would need to find a good used evo 3 input shaft to work with for the job.

Do you already have a clutch assembly for it, or are you looking for a recommendation for that as well?

 

[ThunderChild]

I'll probably start taking transmissions in back around october realistically, I want to be fully caught up for once and not feel like I always have an insane backlog; it has been stressing me out pretty heavily.

Pretty much a stage 3 with 4-spider and shot peening would fit your application; you won't have any powerband at 9.5k-10k rpm anyways on that turbo; if you were running like a 74mm and larger turbo maybe then, but you aren't shooting for 1000+ horsepower. The DSM ratio gearset will handle it fine and will do the job for track time as well. Ideally, an Evo 3 1st gear and input shaft would be the best thing, but you would need to find a good used evo 3 input shaft to work with for the job.

Do you already have a clutch assembly for it, or are you looking for a recommendation for that as well?

thats totally understandable. my workload just gets heavy that time of year, so im trying to enjoy the lack of ppl knocking down my door, very familiar with that feeling.

exactly what you said i was looking at on your website earlier today. id prolly toss in your $525 option for treatments etc. thats good to know on the turbo too, the engine im more just building to reduce some load on the parts for longevity-sake. it will rarely see those rpms if at all, but i may upgrade turbos in the future as well, so id like to have the headroom. i can always see if i can find an evo3 set, but i doubt i will.

clutch i was planning on going with a southbend setup, either ss-tz or ss-dxd (believe youre a dealer, correct?), but if you have a better or more recommended setup im all ears. currently i have an ebay clutch in there, ive used this same clutch several times, and it has actually worked well in a few other vehicles for me. this ones been fine so far but i wasnt planning on keeping it in there once i started making more power.

 

[twicks69]

I offer different clutch options than the SBC website or others. I would recommend my SSX pressure plate along with the B series full face sprung hub ceramic disk. it would work well with a competition clutch street chromoly steel flywheel or ACT Streetlite chromoly steel flywheel.

 

[ThunderChild]

It's like youre reading my mind, I was planning on a chromoly FW as well.

I may have found an evo3 trans for sale, if I can pick it up for a good price and look it over, I may just send that off to you for reworking.

I'll save some money and message u when I'm ready, thanks a bunch!

 

[twicks69]

No problem, just PM me or email me down the road here and I can help you with this stuff.