aftermarket intake manifolds?

[BatmanGSX]

Originally posted by GSTBoostin
Look on turbo magazine's new issue with the galant 4g63 dyno testing, venom manifold gave 19.2 more if i recall right...not sure where in the band that is but hell if it still pulls down low its damn with the 5-600 bucks

Don't believe a fu@king word of that article. I don't know what Turbo Magazine's problem is, maybe their dyno is broken, but the whole series has been full of wacky hp increases on mods that just can't do that.

 

[Polk]

I talked to Turbo about that project. I tried to offer up not ony a couple of different intakes, but a built head as well. They acted like they had already made their minds up on what they were going to install on the car.

Makes me wonder.


Polk

 

[BatmanGSX]

Originally posted by NosLaser
The Magnus intake manifolds suck in my opinion. Ever notice their cars make no torque? This comes from two things. They run the cars too damn lean, and the intake manifolds kill low end power. Those cars have to rev out to like 9500rpm to make any horespower. Not very feasible in a street car. I'm not God's gift to cars, but I guarentee you give me a Magnus built car, and I will make more horsepwer, and much more torque with it.

This is really stupid. Marco ran a 10.06@142 w/o nitrous. Um, I'm sure that required some torque.

You can do better? How can you say something like that when you have never had any car that was that fast? How do you know you could do better? I mean 10.06@142... very few DSMers have gone that fast. What makes you think you could do better if you never have? That was such benchracer-ish statement and really irratating, even for you. What other DSM racers could you do better than? Dave Bushcur? Sean Glazer? John Shepard? Can you do better than them too?

 

[Quacylla]

Don't talk out of your ass Noslaser. When you have a car running faster then Marco's 10.06 then you can't put down some of his design theories. I know another home made Talon with that manifold that has torque in spades (should be a 10 second car... we'll see).

[edit]okay he threw out some base theories[edit]

Oh and saying that you can take a 10.0 sec car that is constantly being worked on for power and easily giving both more horsepower and torque is idiotic. Man I bet Burshur and Rau are calling you everyday for advice.

[edit] the edits above where done because I really had only read the quoted section in the post above and not the whole thread. These are the only words that drew my reaction. There is some good info in his original post but why he threw in this is beyond me.

 

[NosLaser]

...Mind showing me a few FAST cars running the venom inatkes? I know of a few people that had them & said they actually hurt their performance.. and actually gained HP by going back to the stocker. Marco has ran 10.0s w/o nitrous... so that tells me that he know's what he's doing....

Well, for one, Sean Glazer and Brent Rau both ran Venom Intake manifolds. Are they fast? I'm not sure if Glazer still runs one, but I know Brent Rau does.

...Until you come close to what some of these guys are doing why don’t you back off with the comments that you can do better. Ok?...

No, until I have enough money to put into a car to make it that fast. It has nothing to do with my knowledge about making a car go fast. I have no problems in that category.

To all the rest of you who made the same comment as rdrkt, it all boils down to money. You know it, and I know it. If I recall correctly, a lot of the Magnus built cars that I have seen make a TON less torque than horsepower. There is a tuning issue there, and the intake manifold is partially to blame as well. I'm not gonna argue with you guys because you are simply going to respond with "Marco is God." I don't need to jump on that bandwagon. And Quadcylla, 'why don't you put fluid information..' DID you NOT read my post????? There is PLENTY of information about how an intake manifold works. Let me ask you a stupid question. Of all the people in the world who have tested intake manifolds, and who race cars, and who design for major race teams, you pick one person, Marco at Magnus to try and prove a point???? How much Horsepower does an Indy car make? Look at their intake manifold design. DO SOME RESEARCH of your own on how Intake manifold design works. LOOK PAST your God at Magnus Motorsports. In the grand scheme of things, he's really not that well known. How many books are written about Marco? How many cars that he has built or tuned are referenced in books? Do yourself a favor. Go get a book on intake manifold design, on flow dynamics, on engine efficiency, on reversion, regarding the 3rd harmonic effect. BEFORE YOU come back on here and flame me, do that. Educate yourself. I'm not bashing Marco, I don't even know the guy. But, I do know that the intake manifolds they use are not ideal. Period. Bash me if you'd like, but I'm standing a firm position on this one.

Regards,

 

[NosLaser]

Notice one more thing. Notice that Polk, the only one in this thread that I can call a professional engine builder (simple because he owns a shop and does this for a living) does not contradict anything about my post that has to do with how an intake manifold works. Notice his only comment was about the turbo magazine article. Notice the ONLY ones flaming me are you 'Marco Groupies.' You got all offended because I made a statement about your vainglorious God's intake manifolds. I don't even think the rest of you even read my post. You saw Magnus and immediately started foaming at the mouth, and used a FREAKING 1/4 MILE ET to answer to a technical discussion about intake manifolds!!! How f*cking lame is that????? And I'M the one talking out of my ass???? Get a clue!

Regards,

 

[Quacylla]

First of all you are right... I did fly off the handle. But not because I saw someone dissing Marco but because I saw someone thinking he could take a 10.06 second car and give it more torque and hp with ease. The name Marco has nothing to do with this! Insert the name Burshur or Rau or Shepard into your statement and my reaction would have been the same.

I'm not saying Marco is gold... where did I say that? Where did I say his manifold is the best you twirp? I'm saying you made some stupid ass claims and you did! Stop bench racing! Don't say you can tweak a 10.06 sec car faster unless you've been there! Marco just happens to be one of the few that have pushed a DSM that fast... you aren't.

If you want to raise a point about torque do it, but holy #@%#@%#@%#@% man don't come in saying some of that #@%#@%#@%#@% you did from the bench and not expect to be put in your place. Theory is a wonderful place my freind... everything works there. Feel free to post theories and how you think a manifold may work better a certain way. But make sure you leave it as theory until you've applied it... no garuntees about this and that.

p.s. If you aren't happy with using the E/T to show the cars power please note the trap speed... it's the better of the 2.

 

[Tevenor]

Originally posted by NosLaser
Notice one more thing. Notice that Polk, the only one in this thread that I can call a professional engine builder (simple because he owns a shop and does this for a living) does not contradict anything about my post that has to do with how an intake manifold works. Notice his only comment was about the turbo magazine article. Notice the ONLY ones flaming me are you 'Marco Groupies.' You got all offended because I made a statement about your vainglorious God's intake manifolds. I don't even think the rest of you even read my post. You saw Magnus and immediately started foaming at the mouth, and used a FREAKING 1/4 MILE ET to answer to a technical discussion about intake manifolds!!! How f*cking lame is that????? And I'M the one talking out of my ass???? Get a clue!

Regards,

Settle down Beavis. You off your meds again?

1) No-one disputes that in your 'tech' post that there isn't a lot of good information. The problem is that you wrap all of your useful posts with this self-absorbed self-prosecution kick you get on.

2) Marco's manifolds do the job. Do other's do them better? Maybe. Are other's designed worse? Maybe. Does any intake manifold, including one that you could design, instantly change a 12 second car into a 10 second beast? Not on your focking life.

If you think you can tune Marco's cars better than he, than I say that's between you and him. Whatever our comments are really shouldn't matter so why are you fishing for them?

3) What are your engines used for? Oh I am sorry. You aren't a "Professional" engine builder like Polk (and Marco I might add). Neither am I. Neither is Josh.

The engines are used for drag cars (well except mine). The best way to measure the effectiveness of the engine in a drag situation is to run the damn thing down the 1/4 mile. Unless you plan on making engine dyno only engines, the 1/4 mile is going to be your standard. Yes you can dyno the car, but nobody respects a dyno queen and its not what Rau or Glazer (which seem to be your two fall back guys) or Marco or Polk or Buschur builds. They build drag cars. The effectiveness of the parts they build/design and the quality of their tuning/driving comes out on the track. Everything else, including your nonsense and the 'Marco Groupies' as you put it, is benchracing. So stop playing the focking messiah and being shocked that Josh gave you a 1/4 mile time w/ mph.

 

[mclaren55]

Well, I am not going to bash anyone one here. But SINCE I run the intake manifold Marco builds, I think I have a right to state an opinion. Firstly, I have 400ft lbs at the wheels. I think that is enough for any car, much less a 2.0l 4cyl. I also put down roughly 500whp. My car was built for the 1/4, I have enough torque to spin all four through first and second. Now, believe it or not, there is such a thing as to much torque. I don't want anymore torque then I already have, I have good 60's, and I don't break anything. As for them being a poor design, I don't know. It gives me great top end, which is what I WANTED. If I wanted low end torque I would slap a T25 and 2g intake manifold on my car and be happier then a pig in #@%#@%#@%#@%. I don't really know what your definition of "low torque" is, but pretty much anything over 400ft lbs is good enough for me.

As for saying the cars run to lean, etc. Marco could squeeze a lot more power out of my car if he leaned it out, but it runs extremely rich right now. Why you ask? He likes to run his motors safe.

Aslan, I don't really know you at all, but if you can put your theories to work and build a better intake mani, I will test it. Until then, please stop making claims that you can do this and that better then someone who does this sort of thing for a living. You may have good idea's, and state "good" theories, but everything works in theory land. It is the people who go out on a limb, make something, and prove it that get my respect. Not the people whom sit on the sidelines and say they could do things better. Its kinda like hockey fans, they always insult the players, when they would have no chance in hell of getting into the NHL.

 

[NosLaser]

...Where did I say his manifold is the best you twirp?...

Now that's mature. And it's TWERP, you tool.

...Settle down Beavis. You off your meds again?...

Yes.

Alright. I stated my opinion on the Magnus Intake manifolds, and clearly stated it as my opinion. If I had the money, I would design an intake manifold personally, and I'd be more than happy to pit it against the other designs out there. Anybody remember the Intake Manifold on Garry Marsh's car? (Wrighttouch) You know, WAY back when he was running 9's in a FWD when most other DSM'ers were struggling to get 9's in an AWD? You know, way back when he was #2 on the all time list right behind Sean Glazer?? Ever seen the intake manifold on his car? It uses the exact same design I am describing; large plenum, longer runners. It ran faster than Marco, and did it WAY before he did. Can I use that as my example? Would that be a fair comparison since we are quoting 1/4 mile ET's and mph's here? Ever seen the intake manifold? It looks like the head of the Alien in the Sygorni (sp) Weaver movie. It's huge, and so totally would not sell if they decided to market it because it ain't purty enough. But hot damn did it work! And that's exactly what I'm talking about. I'm sorry that the majority of you don't grasp theory well enough to see the shortcomming of a product. I will be sure to quote 1/4 mile times and ET's of fellow DSM'ers from now on instead of putting logical thought process into my posts.

Regards,

 

[GoFastTSI]

If I recall correctly, a lot of the Magnus built cars that I have seen make a TON less torque than horsepower. There is a tuning issue there, and the intake manifold is partially to blame as well.

You know, I thought for a while there that your ass-holish, holier than though attitude was gone. This certainly shows that it is still alive and kicking. So tell me, oh fellow wiseman, with CONCRETE proof that the intake manifold is to blame. I'd like to see personally procured dyno times on your car, flow charts, etc of comparisons with other intake manifolds. In short, as everyone has already assessed, you are talking out your ass in leaps and bounds. I'm not on the Marco bandwagon, nor do I beat off to loving thoughts of him as my god. You, however, must get a chub thinking that slinging crap at a shop that has not only done wonders for crankwalk victims, but also has incredible customer service. Plus, he loves porn. Until I see concrete, unadulterated proof of your incessant ramblings, zip it!

Joe

 

[NosLaser]

...So tell me, oh fellow wiseman, with CONCRETE proof that the intake manifold is to blame...

I didn't say that. I said the intake manifold is a big part of the equation, and it was an educated guess of mine that the cars are set too lean, which WILL result in a loss of torque. In every Magnus car I have seen, they all seem to have a LOT less torque than horsepower, respectively. I was simply theorizing that the intake manifold, and a not fat enough condition were contributing causes. I still don't like the manifold design, nor do I think it's ideal. The idea is good, don't get me wrong, but the execution is lacking in my opinion. Don't put words in my mouth as they are not neccessary.

...I'd like to see personally procured dyno times on your car, flow charts, etc of comparisons with other intake manifolds....

I'd love to! I just don't have the money nor the resources.

I don't have anything against any shop. I don't know these people personally, I am simply making a subjective criticism of a product I don't feel to be as well engineered as everyone is making it out to be. Remember, I DON'T have a shop to support. I DON'T lost any money if someone buys a Magnus intake manifold. I am simply providing information, and it sure as sh!t isn't for my own personal gain. Get off my back with this shop bullcrap; as you can tell by my post I am providing information on how an intake manifold works. If you disagree, provide INFORMATION contesting what I talked about. By all means lets have a technical discussion on intake manifold design! But don't come back on here just to tell me I'm an #@%#@%#@%#@%#@%#@%#@% because I don't like a product made by a cool guy who likes porn. Come on!

Regards,

 

[Quacylla]

Oh boy... he still doesn't get it. No one is saying your thoery is flawed we are all just saying you can't make 'garuntees' about an actual outcome when all you have is thoery. You made a 'garuntee' from 'theory land' about a car in 'the real world' that you are unable to test out. At that point you crossed the line of opinion to testimonial. That's called bench racing and no one likes it. If you had left that stupid line out it would have made a world of difference.

"
If you disagree, provide INFORMATION contesting what I talked about"

Mclaren55 did and you ignored him for some reason. We'd all benefit from a discussion on the topic but just remember it's theory.

p.s. Ya you're right 10.06 @142 doesn't mean didly . I'll try to refrain from posting such nonesense numbers in the future to reference a cars ability. Oh and the spelling mistake... ouch that hurt . I must be an idiot.

 

[Nitrox]

Originally posted by NosLaser
Anybody remember the Intake Manifold on Garry Marsh's car? (Wrighttouch) It ran faster than Marco, and did it WAY before he did. Can I use that as my example? Would that be a fair comparison since we are quoting 1/4 mile ET's and mph's here

Mr. Apple meet Mr. Orange

 

[NosLaser]

...Mr. Apple meet Mr. Orange...

Whoa!!! How do you figure? Is it apples to oranges just because I dug up a refernce to substantiate my claim? Is that ANY different than the rest of these guys using Marco as their reference? That statement RIGHT THERE at least proves one thing...this discusion is skewed from the word go.

And Quacylla, I did read his post. And his car too makes 100 less lb/ft of torque than HP. Remember, HP is merely a function of torque. The reason a stock Prelude is a little slower than a stock DSM is because the DSM motor makes more torque. For a small 4 cylinder, they can be pretty torquey little cars. Maybe I'm old fashioned. I like when a car makes more torque than HP. Look, this discussion is going nowhere. Nobody is discussing anything to do with theory, I'm simply listening to a bunch of people chime in calling me a dick because I made a statement about Magnus's intake manifold that ruffled some feathers. Could I possibly extract more power from one of their cars? Maybe. Maybe not. Who am I to say that I can? Well, maybe I should take that statement back. By that same token, who are any of you to say that I can't? Bottom line, I'll never have the opportunity to prove it so it's a moot point. I shouldn't have said that (about making more power), so I retract that statement.

Regards,

 

[Polk]

double post

 

[Polk]

Boy I had no idea this would turn into this.

As far as big plenum's go, I have one that is huge. It is tunable and does resemble that of an indy car. The plenum has a total CID of 796 and can be changed to 576 CID by removing the end plate. That will be important when it comes time to tune it.

I have no dyno time on this intake as of right now, but is does have a lot of time on the flow-bench. This is more for an all out drag engine.

We are going to use this intake on the BIG inch motor going in the green FWD car for next year.

I have not let anyone see this intake until now. I don't think it will make a 1,000 hp over anyone else’s, but it will be perfect for the new setup that we are working on.

Polk

 

[Polk]

another

 

[mike9146]

"And Quacylla, I did read his post. And his car too makes 100 less lb/ft of torque than HP."

I think there's some confusion as to how Horsepower and Torque are related. By definition, if an engine makes it's peak power at an RPM greater than 5252, HP will *always* be greater than torque, whether it's a 1.5L NT Honda, or a turbo DSM. The higher the RPM at which the motor makes it's peak HP, the greater the discrepancy between HP and Torque. If HP= Torque/5252(RPM), Horsepower and Torque *must* be equal at 5252 RPM, Period. Torque is simply a measure of Force, while Horsepower expresses Work. This is not to say that the car in question is simply not making it's peak HP at as low of an RPM as another, but as far as HP vs. Torque is concerned, the higher the RPM of the peak HP, the greater the gap will be between the two.

Mike C.

 

[Polk]

To put it plain and simple.....Torque makes for nice 60' while horsepower is what wins races.

Polk

 

[Black95GSX]

Originally posted by NosLaser
Selecting an intake manifold ....

This scares the #@%#@%#@%#@% out of me... that your giving advice like this, without all the background information.


Btw, which "fast" cars have you seen run the venom manifold? There is a reason people don't use it, it flows for ****. I know someone who had one, and he "upgraded" to a 1g manifold later on, and gained power. Not exactly good IMO.


By the way, when was the last time your car ran as fast as marco's?

I'm not trying to say my car is fast even, but before you go and start talking about someone's products (which are proven), make sure you have enough background (ie: wrenching time) prior to your trash talk.


Magnus manifolds are one of the best out there....

 

[Quacylla]

"To put it plain and simple.....Torque makes for nice 60' while horsepower is what wins races.
"

Exactly... which brings up the point Mclaren55 was making...

"I also put down roughly 500whp. My car was built for the 1/4, I have enough torque to spin all four through first and second. Now, believe it or not, there is such a thing as to much torque. I don't want anymore torque then I already have, I have good 60's, and I don't break anything. "


So once you reach the limit of what torque you can put down at the line then you don't have to worry about it as much when trying to bump the horses more.

 

[Blitz]

Originally posted by Polk
To put it plain and simple.....Torque makes for nice 60' while horsepower is what wins races.

Polk

So how much torque and horsepower are you making? How many races did you win last year and how many races have you won this year?

 

[kilurv8]

I have been working with a shop to create a cast aftermarket intake manifolds for the 1Gs and 2Gs. There is full coverage at this thread
http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=55969&referrerid=555

I know it is on that other site but it covers anything that you might want to know about it. So far the piece has made some good power gains on middle range powered cars with little loss in the low and mid range rpms. Take a look at the dyno plots near the end. Also the price will be hopefully under 500 bucks retail.

 

[Polk]

So how much torque and horsepower are you making? How many races did you win last year and how many races have you won this year?

I'm not on here to argue with anybody.....I am here to try and help people out with their questions. I'm not saying that I know everything there is to know either.

I have not raced at any big events this year (doing a total rebuild on the FWD car). I have run my AWD streetcar at the local track a couple of times this year (7.55@102mph 1/8 mile), but that is about it.

I raced the FWD car only 5 times last year. Won the Forced Performance Shoot-out, and came in 2nd at Drag Wars in Houston.

I hope to make the DSM community proud next year in a FWD against a sea of Hondas. But then again only time will tell.

Polk