advantages vs. disadvantages

[DSMNightmare]

You are forgetting one major thing Kirby. Labor cost a lot of money. In some cases it can actually cost you more than the part. Most estimates on a 4g63 turbo install were between 6-8 hours. Figure that in at 70 bucks an hour and thats over 500 bucks for my install. The 420a turbo install is a little more entailed than the 4G install so I'm not sure how much that would be. I dont know if your kit comes with the FMIC but you would have to add labor to that as well.

While I did not give this much effort and I could not find exactly what your criteria was. I was able to find the following.

http://www.autotrader.com/findacar/...&advcd_on=y&doors=&fuel=&color=&car_year=1995

http://www.autotrader.com/findacar/...&advcd_on=y&doors=&fuel=&color=&car_year=1995

This was with 5min of looking. Honestly I think that is its pointless to try and figure out which motor is better than which. I have my own opinion as do you. Fact is Bill Hahn has gotten the 420 to go very fast and very quick so it can be a good motor. The fact is if you are going to go the 420a route it is going to cost you a lot of money.

I will say one thing that is an advantage over a stock Tsi. We have a guy over here that was able to pull 140mph on a dyno with his turboed GS. A stock Tsi/GST will not do this because of the speed limiter somewhere in the 135ish range(give or take). I don't know if the GS has a speed limiter but if so he has yet to see it. As far as which car will get there faster....well thats a whole other debate.

Another thing I like is the physical location of the turbo on the 420 vs the 4G. Its right up in your face. I dont know if this helps or hurts but it looks good.

 

[Kirby]

Well yes that is now, I am speaking of 3 years ago. Look I'm not trying to bash the 4g63, it is a good motor. I just get tired of some of the owners saying "if you go with the 420a it'll cost you a lot of money" "why don't you sell it and buy a turbo", "the 4g63 is proven to take a turbo...blah blah blah" I'm not saying my motor is better than yours, they both deserve their due credit, but I'm sick of turbo owners who think that motor walks on water. Point being, don't spread bull$hit about this motor (420a). It can be just as powerful as the 4g63 for around the same money, and I'm sick of people disrespecting it.
And I'm sorry to say it but if people keep attacking my motor I will keep defending it as you have seen, your motor is not better than mine. Nothing personal to anyone...

 

[LifeRollsOn]

Originally posted by DSMNightmare
You are forgetting one major thing Kirby. Labor cost a lot of money. In some cases it can actually cost you more than the part. Most estimates on a 4g63 turbo install were between 6-8 hours. Figure that in at 70 bucks an hour and thats over 500 bucks for my install. The 420a turbo install is a little more entailed than the 4G install so I'm not sure how much that would be. I dont know if your kit comes with the FMIC but you would have to add labor to that as well.

While I did not give this much effort and I could not find exactly what your criteria was. I was able to find the following.

http://www.autotrader.com/findacar/...&advcd_on=y&doors=&fuel=&color=&car_year=1995

http://www.autotrader.com/findacar/...&advcd_on=y&doors=&fuel=&color=&car_year=1995

This was with 5min of looking. Honestly I think that is its pointless to try and figure out which motor is better than which. I have my own opinion as do you. Fact is Bill Hahn has gotten the 420 to go very fast and very quick so it can be a good motor. The fact is if you are going to go the 420a route it is going to cost you a lot of money.

I will say one thing that is an advantage over a stock Tsi. We have a guy over here that was able to pull 140mph on a dyno with his turboed GS. A stock Tsi/GST will not do this because of the speed limiter somewhere in the 135ish range(give or take). I don't know if the GS has a speed limiter but if so he has yet to see it. As far as which car will get there faster....well thats a whole other debate.

Another thing I like is the physical location of the turbo on the 420 vs the 4G. Its right up in your face. I dont know if this helps or hurts but it looks good.

70 an hour!!!!!!????? Sheesh All I had to do was put a sticker on my winshield and I pay 10 an hour for all labor. Oh and no our GS's do not have a speed limiter... a good thing IMO cuz I like to show everyone that my car can go faster than their civics.... with a turbo kit a GS would Kill any 2G turbo car with the limiter in tops speedwhich I hear is impossible to remove.

 

[mdre21]

$70 is a pretty good estimate for most shops some mechanics will be even more like 80-100. The rev. limiter on the gst isn't impossible to remove it just takes some soldering and modifying the ecu, it's not just like a spring, screw or piece of metal than can be hit with a hammer like some parts. It takes some knowledge of computers and electronics so it is difficult but not impossible.

 

[DSMNightmare]

Well said Kirby, and like mdre21 said it is not impossible. In fact there are two ways to do it.

1. go here and follow the steps. http://www.dsm.org/how-tos/speedlimiter.htm

2. Buy an AWD ECU and swap them out. I got mine for 40 bucks and its going in this spring. I'll have to test it out on a dyno because going that fast is illegal .

Honestly having it is not that big of a deal. Honestly finding guys who have the grapes to go over 130 (especially if the road has turns) is not as easy as you would think. Sure they might get there for a second or two but usually they will back off before then, especially if they have not caught you by then.

BTW that speed limiter is an ~130. I have heard of guys hitting upper 130s. I guess it is a car specific thing. All I know is when I hit limiter it almost puts me in the dash because I'm still pullin hard at 135.

 

[99 gst 420a dsm]

im all for thea turbo, i have so little money into my kit, it makes me laugh to hear about these 2500-3500 dollar turbo kits, i mean i have been lucky, i got a garrett t3/t4 hybrid turbo for helping my neighbor work on his mustang, and he build my turbo header for free, gave me an innercooler, set me up with a friend where he used to work(monro muffler) all i have to buy is the missing link, whats that $55? im not foinf for 400 horse power either, i just have more respect for someone who can turbocharge there n/a car (if dont right) anyone can slap a 500 dollar ebay turbo on their civic, i am looking at a modified starion innercooler right now, but thats 300 shipped and i am willing to bet ima be able to burn a 97 gst, and my engine should last alot longer too, but im only looking for 220+ hp @6-8 psi of boost, this car is my everyday driver(in the summer) so if you want to turbocharge your 420a, more power to ya, im not shitting on the 4g63, they arent many 420as out there running a 10 sec 1/4 mile, but not everyone wants to dump $30k under there hood either

 

[DSMNightmare]

i just have more respect for someone who can turbocharge there n/a car

I have more respect for somone who can tune thier car weather it be N/A or 4G63. I know plenty of 20Gs out there running high 14s even worse I know 16Gs running 15s.

 

[Kirby]

One more thing about the labor also. If you don't install the kit yourself then you are just stupid IMO. If your going to drive a turbo charged car you need to learn how the parts work together and where they are so in the future if u have problems you can fix it yourself. I have installed every part on my car...

 

[99 gst 420a dsm]

yea, everything i do to my car is done by me!! mostly because i dont trust most peoples custom work, the parts i have that i didnt build were made by a very close friend

 

[fast1.8sohcDSM]

The advantages over turbocharging your car compared to a swap is a lot better, then the disadvantages. The problem is, if you don't to internal work, you have chances of blowing ring landings, and detonation. So my advice you you all is get JE/Ross racing pistons, and maybe some rods, and get your moneys worth out of the turbo kit you shoved so much money out for.

 

[User Name]

Originally posted by fast1.8sohcDSM
The advantages over turbocharging your car compared to a swap is a lot better, then the disadvantages.

Put on your thinking cap. You can come up with more advantages than... um... that...?

 

[Turbonium]

Dont forget that the 420A as an engine is designed better, I mean come on the 4g63 is 10 older than the 420A. and a bedplate lower case design (no main caps, the entire engine splits in two along the crankshaft centerline), simplification of design (about 20% less parts count than the 4G6), all O-ring and rubber gasket sealing construction, knife-edge crank counterweights and an oil / water-cooled cylinder head.

i don't think the 420A is 10 years newer than the 4g63..... they used them in cars 10 years later but the motor appeared first in 95 i think and the 4g63 appeared in 1990 so thats more like 5 years....... so what is making the 420A a better designed motor exactly?? i'm not sayin either one is better but the seem about the same to me except the only motor you can get with AWD is the 4g63 so....thats my choice.

 

[Boosted420a]

Let me just sit here and think for one moment about whether i would like to have a 4g63 or a 420a turbo. Yes i agree there is more parts available for the 4g, but the 420a with atleast the bottom built is a stong strong motor.. If you dont have a 420a you might suprise yourself with the response of one. My 99 has the hrc stage II with the motor out right now getting JE and eagle rods. Boosting at 15-18 psi in that motor is equivalent to a 4g running at about 25 with a 16g. Do tha math to that!! When i was running only 10 psi in stock everything but 2.5" exhaust and only a 2.25" downpipe i was running 14.26 1/4 mile. 10 psi!!! STOCK!! can u get that out of a 4g63 with 10 psi? DONT THINK SO FOLKS!! So i say spend the money on getting a 420a be different have a stronger motor and still run faster than a 4g with a good bottom end build. We will see how mine runs. Hahn quotes to me up and down low 13's for sure on street tires with 15 psi with my bottom being built.. We will see once she is back for the shop....

 

[siueclipse]

Originally posted by DSMNightmare

I will say one thing that is an advantage over a stock Tsi. We have a guy over here that was able to pull 140mph on a dyno with his turboed GS. A stock Tsi/GST will not do this because of the speed limiter somewhere in the 135ish range(give or take). I don't know if the GS has a speed limiter but if so he has yet to see it. As far as which car will get there faster....well thats a whole other debate.

yeah that was a slightly freaky time. i thought my car was going to fly off the dyno


hey boosted 420a, glad to see you are building the bottom end. im in the process as well and plan on running about 18lbsd of boost.

i really think the 420a has more potential. granted you have to spend money on it to get it there, but damn, the end result is going to scream.

 

[Boosted420a]

so suie, did you stay with the 2.25" downpipe? so far i have but now that i am having the bottom built i no longer think i can stand havin that one anymore.. only prob is the location is to damn small to put any larger without moving the a/c lines.. who needs that anyways right? haha!! i do man!! my motor let go on easter and now i am struggling to survive the cost to build the bottom the way i want.. i got a steal on the parts though so i had to go ahead now and do it. I got the pistons and rods for 704 bucks.. that was a deal and a half man. then the rings cost 65 bucks so i had to go ahead with my plans. still need the clutch and injectors though. GULP!!!!

 

[siueclipse]

you also need the bearings man. i haven't upgraded my exhaust yet. i was running stock exhaust with my stage 2 turbo kit. im going to go with 3" turbo back now.

 

[Boosted420a]

oh i know that i need the bearings.. that is just part of the process my man.. thanks for the concern though.

 

[siueclipse]

no worries

 

[Havok05]

Originally posted by CleanGS97


That may not be true.. if you modify your car in that fashon and wreck it the insurance can choose not to honor your contract because your car is not what you are paying them to insure.... Just a thought.

Sorry but I just have to correct this. The insurance company will honor the contract. They just won't pay for anything you didn't tell them about. So if you have a turbo, and you wreck the car, the insurance company will pay for everything except for the turbo and any parts associated with the turbo that you had put in. This is of course if you don't tell them. If you tell them, then your insurance goes up. So it's a hard decision to make.

 

[XIII]

reading these posts its clear tehre are many opinions and some run very deep so i will simply state mine the 4g63 is by far and away a better motor than the 420 adnthose who say that adinga turbo is costly and timeconsuming obviously dont love there dsm as much as i. My bebe is wirth every penny. I got a really good deeal cuz i have tins of friends who are into the import scene as well and we all love our vehicles stronglyand we even fight over whats better sometimes but the 4g has so few differences betwenn teh turbo model and non turbo and just so you know i have seen with my own two eyes a converted nonturbo run up to 18 lbs of boost for a full 1/4 mile made 4 runs that night and took every thing he came up against if thats not enough boost for you i suggest getting a supra or skyline cua those are the only motors taht can handle more than our beloved dsm

 

[herostar]

Originally posted by jimmy169
the huge advantage is no CRANKWALK. It's not 10%, it's more like past 60%!!! Seriously, search around the internate, ask around, crank walk is almost common aspecially now that the cars are hitting past 70k. Some get it early, some get it late, but it's a HUGE problem and people have changed their engines and gotten it again.

are you ####ing serious? I've never heard a more misinformed person in my life. I always hate flaming and disagreeing with someone but you are straight up wrong. Only about 10% of 2g crankwalk, if even that. If you take the 10% that did crankwalk, about 90% of those it happened because the people either drove their cars like maniacs, didn't properly break in their car, or modded their cars alot. Please inform yourself correctly before you post.


Back on topic: If you already have a gs you might as well turbo it rather than get a gst just to save the hastle of buying and selling a car.

 

[herostar]

Originally posted by Kirby

Yeah spin a rod bearing and then have your crank walk and tell me wich one is worse.... Plus there is usually one thing that causes spun bearings in the 420a...oil strvation, very easy to avoid.

"so Kirby, if he slaps a factory turbo on a non turbo car then he'll be faster than a gsx right?.......also considering the cost of a n/t and parts and labor to make it a turbo and comparing it to a factory turbocharged car you can't tell me that it comes out cheaper to buy a n/t and turbo it..........as far as insurance goes , both my dsm and my vette are insured in my brother's name so turbo or no turbo doesn't really make any difference to me in terms of money "
I'll put it this way.... My car, $6,000 my turbo kit, $1,800= $7,800 and faster than a stock gst. Show me a GST in good condition and only 47,000 miles for $7,800. Now consider also that when I add the 2.2L stroker, Clutch masters stage 4 clutch, an MSD DIS-2, and my 8 injector fuel system for an extra $4,000 (over estimating here on the 4 grand) that gives you $11,500. And a car that will beat the S#IT out of a gst or gsx, stock form or pretty moded. Then add in stage 4 axles and a qualife LSD for $2,500, and you have $14,000, (price of most used GST/GSX's) for a full bred drag car ready to take all the boost you can throw at it and run better than 12's. Any other questions??????

$8,000 and your car only runs 12's? I bought my car last august for $6000. It has 138,000 miles on the original 4g63 engine and it runs fine with no signs of crankwalk. I've put about 2000 into my car and once I get an afc and 550's I'll be in the 12's with some driving practice and a little weight reduction. Too bad you had to spend 8,000 to get where I'll be after well under $3000. Not to start a flame war (even though it's been started...), but everyone, EVERYONE, knows that the 4g63 is a way better engine to mod. And about it being an old engine. I know tons of people who are putting small block 350's into many different cars... those are hella old designs.

 

[herostar]

By the way... I was talking to a mitsubishi mechanic tonight and he said that the 4g63 is a way better engine than the 420a, even counting crankwalk. He told me that they get tons more 420a's in that have spun a rod and need a short block than crankwalked 4g63's. He said in the 4 years he's worked for the dealership he's only seen 2 CW's, but countless spun bearings on 420a's. Even HE says that they named it 420 for a reason.... if you know what I mean.

 

[Defiant]

O, will this dog ever catch its tail?

There are a lot of blown turbo motors out there. Just as there are a lot of healthy, powerful, hard-driven turbo motors. Engine guts can only do so much. Pressurizing the combustion chambers puts that much more load on the engine. Drivers who understand what's going on have a grasp of how much is more than good, and regardless of how fast that ten-year-newer car next to them is, keep a head and back out when it's time. And keeps the head gasket. Or, piston. Or, thrust bearing. Or timing belt or oil pump or turbine bearing or any of the dozens of other crucial failures that'll take the whole engine with it.

It's dicey to further-stress an engine not meant for turbocharging with any sort of forced induction. I'd guess piston failure is the most usual, but it's all so variable that trying to pin down one weakest point is just about impossible. I was in on turbocharging a Datsun L-20B back in '78. We were wringing our hands and standing back in fear when running 5PSI. Highest it was ever taken to was 10PSI, but only very briefly and very seldom. At Sears Point we took it to 8PSI, road racing. It'd accumulated about 5,000 miles when it was sold, and wrapped around a tree very shortly after that, so its true lifetime will never be known.

My opinion is only that when a factory turbo job, with a good history of reliability is easily and cheaply available, it isn't worth the work to blow an N/T engine. Put only some of that work into a factory-built turbo, and drive it with the consideration you'd give a conversion job, and it'd easily outlive its chassis.

 

[BlueMoonEclipse]

*raises hand..

I spun a bearing on my 420a...then again i had bad bad engine ovestress when it hapened....i got good mechancs who do the job for beans...and do a hell of a job.....so im geting it fixed while i develop my 2.4 alongside....need to keep using car..will sell the rebuilt block once my 2.4 is ready for operation...

Cause 2.4 420a turbo>4g63 turbo