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8/5/06 - Hpde 1 @ Tws

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asian312

20+ Year Contributor
678
4
Sep 23, 2002
Houston, Texas
In a blink of an eye it was over. I had just completed my first HPDE at Texas World Speedway. My story begins at 4:00am as I spring out of bed ready to participate in what has been the better part of two weeks in the making. The car has completed its maintenance and is packed from the night before. I meet my brother in his Miata and the two of us are off on our 70 mile trek to TWS. At 6:20 we find ourselves in unfamiliar territory. Surrounded by trailered race cars and semis that you would expect to see at an F1 venue, we fumble our way through registration and head to the infield. As we pass through the tunnel under the main straight, it becomes very apparent just how big TWS really is. From the road it looks like a mere hill, but from within the track, it stretches as far as the eye can see. With all the choice spots taken by those that arrived on Fri. we located ourselves along the backside of the oval and pitch up camp. At this point things begin to click as I take in the sights and sounds. V8s begin to fire up the background, Spec Miatas, Porsches, Pro stock cars, and Mini NASCARs (Baby Grande) all begin to buzz with life. We continue with our task at hand as we unpack our vehicles, remove spare tires, and get numbers on our cars.

7:00 – Mandatory walk around for HPDE. A 2.9 mile walk…talk about a way to start the morning. We show up at the pit entrance and spot a familiar face we met at registration. Upon inquiring about our group, we were notified things had fallen behind schedule a bit. Chuck did point over to a line of cars and hinted that maybe we should grab one of our cars and follow them. And as every motor sports enthusiast would do, we climbed in the Eclipse and followed suit. Soon I found myself circling the track taking a lap to familiarize ourselves. The track was wide with very few obstacles to collide with incase you found yourself with all fours off road. The front straight was a banked piece from the 2 mile oval. It was my first time to set foot on a track much less a bank and found myself holding the steering wheel roughly 30 degrees towards the outside to hold myself on the bank at low speeds as we trained along. We met up just after turn 1 to begin the walk around.

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Turn 1 comes off of the main straight. This is the highest speed corner and if done correctly can be combined with turn 2 to make one seamless corner. The trick is however that there is a small transition from the bank to the level ground of the road course. The racing line requires the cars to come off the bank roughly mid or higher up to line up turn 1. This section also contains the entrance from the pits and the merging line which I used to guide myself. Turn in off the bank, wait for the transition, pick your straight line, tap the breaks, and watch for the marker. The marker for the turn into turn 2 is a visible 4’ x 4’ box on the outer edge of the track. Since turn two is a decreasing radius turn, the racing line is to wait slightly after the marker to begin turning in and then carry the momentum through. Turn 3’s approach is simple in theory, fast approach, wait…wait…wait…brakes, late apex. Turn 4 is your ‘classic’ apex. On turn 5 we sacrifice this corner to line up for 6 properly. Ride close to the middle of the track and follow the corner around. There’s a dirt road that I used as a marker to aim for. Turn 6 and 7 have slight banks to them and progressively get more banked towards the inside. For me it was all out, let off to 1/2 throttle for a second, dive the nose into the corner and power all the way through. With the bank compressing the front inside suspension and the AWD grip it was like a roller coaster. Turn 7 requires even more courage as it finishes up hill to turn 8 which is a blind corner. Turn 8 and 9 form the first ‘S’ on the track. Once again we sacrifice 8, late apex and line up for a straight shot through 9. Good to mention here this was the scariest part of the track for me. The straight between 9 and 10 is the transition back to the infield which has tire walls on either side. Come in too hot off of 9 or to wide and into the wall (and it doesn’t look pillow soft). Turn 10 and 11 is a ‘button hook’ named the ‘carousal’. In this corner we were explained that there is no ground to gain, only to loose. As we come across I position myself against the left side of the track and wait for the small bump. Then hard on the brakes and progressively turn into the corner. The idea is to meet the inside of the track just at the point of exit. Done correctly and your lined up for a straight blast to 12. Other wise you push wide if you try and carry to much speed and find yourself scrubbing excess speed to negotiate turn 11. Finally the last section of the track, the ‘make or break’ section. Ride the track wide and brake deep into 12. Sacrifice 12 to line up the apexes of 13 and 14. Then all out and back onto the front straight.

Pretty simple, I can do the Nurberg Ring in GT4…WRONG! In the following 10 hours I would learn a lot about driving, especially from the ‘momentum cars’ (more on those later) than I ever could from the 7 years of driving I’ve done thus far. So a few key hints to take from the morning walk:

- Maintain a comfortable, but controllable speed.
- Look at the corner ahead, not the one you’re at.
- It takes at least 2 corners to correct yourself and get back on the line
- Sacrificing a corner to line up one that exits on the straight means that your exit speed is ‘multiplied’ as you carry it down the straights.

Off to the class room for our first meeting. I look around at the other participants and feel a little more relaxed as only a handful of them are wearing racing suits. We cover flags, track etiquette, pass- bys, corner stations, and then the Q&A begins. Remember that relaxed feeling? I start hearing things like ‘My viper…” and “I don’t know what class I’m in, but I have a fully race prepped…” I settle down and listen intently to what is being exchanged; then head off to tech. We grab the cars and mossy on up. In line with me are a father son group of RX7s. The son is just starting out in Dad’s old racer 1st gen 7, while pops is in a beautiful red FD. They’re in our group and excited to see how they would perform (secret closet 7 fanboy). In front is a kitted 350Z with massive dual N1s and a Cobra in front of it. Both are also running in my group. With all the morning festivities complete we head back to the camp to wait for our session.

It’s the moment I’ve been waiting for, time to go out and play! I look down from my vantage point before getting my car and what do I see first…3 Z06s roll in. You got to be kidding me. Well I slide in to the eclipse and grid up about middle of the pack. I’d estimate roughly 15-20 cars in our group ranging from Porsches to Hondas, and even a Viper and a Saturn. As we ready to go onto the track I find my passenger seat empty. There were not enough instructors for every car, but then a head stuck in my window and asked if I’d like a ride along. I happily agreed. My tutor for the morning goes by the name of Shawn and normally races Cobras. We strike up a conversation as he tries to measure the vehicle he just climbed aboard. “Front wheel drive with a turbo? Should be nice and quick on the straights, we need to…” About that point I butted in and mentioned AWD. He looks at me, pauses, “I’m not familiar with these, but should be pretty much the same as a RWD.” And with that we are off.

First lap was under double yellows, and I took this time to make out all the markers and follow the line. At this speed it was relaxing, but then the front straight appeared and the green flag was waving. I floored it in 3rd and blasted down the straight. Turn 1 came up so fast and then immediately it was sensory overload. Everything that I had been told and taught was out the window. As Shawn tried to line me up for the next corner, neither he nor I knew my car at these limits. My blessing came in the form of AWD as no matter how bad I botched a corner, it held me on the track. I was going too fast and steering too aggressively. Despite the RM sway bars, my poor eclipse was wallowing about at entry and exit as my stock suspension couldn’t handle the mix-mash of steering inputs I was feeding it. Slowly though we reeled her in as we both adjusted and made it through two laps. Lap three, disaster struck as I found myself braking in turn 8 after carrying all that speed from 7. Very slowly my rear began to slide out and I attempted to counter, but Shawn foresaw this and said just to let it go. I did just that, but right at that moment I remembered something, “Both Feet In”, Rich’s post. I hit the clutch and brake and threw it into neutral as I watched 1 or 2 cars pass by on the outside. My car was thrown off the track and once all the dust settled I brought her back to the pits for inspection. With my head shaken and my pride hurt a bit I limped onto pit lane remembering not to drag all the debris across the racing line. My head instructor Ali was waiting for us and I expected the worst. Instead I got, “You ok?” I shook my head yes and his response was, “Lets check it out quick, you got half a session to go.” I was renewed, new approach and more determination than ever to make my baby perform. We spent the second half of the session mastering the corners and the line and slowly began taking her up to speed. I got a lot of practice doing point-bys, but was more receptive to things at this speed. One thing I did notice during all the chaos was that none of the Z06s lapped me. However, the red civic hatch and that Saturn managed to blast past me twice. All too soon the session ended and into the pits we went. I met up with Shawn for a debriefing and he had nothing but words of encouragement and a few pointers for my next session.

Back at camp we pop the hoods, place down the wheel blocks, and check the car’s fluids. I also check my tires, wheels, and retorque the lug nuts after they cooled. I made it out of the spin with only a little scaring on the bottom side of the front bumper cover and on the passenger rocker panel. With lots of water in hand we head off to the driver’s lounge for class. As with the late start of the day, we once again are pitched into what looked like HPDE 3 & 4 class. None the less I take a seat on the nice cold floor and listen in. Our group’s class should have been right after, but it did not seem that way as everyone began to disperse. At that point we met up with Veejay and Ryan, the drivers of the 350Z and Cobra. We trade story and experiences and are soon joined by instructor Pete. Pete is an older gentleman but a very well spoken and easy to approach fellow. He gives us a few pointers on the corners and answers all the uncertainties we felt on our first session. Here’s where I also get the down low on the ‘momentum cars’. By these he’s referring to the underpowered 4cyl such as Miatas and that Saturn running amok. He shows us the value of carrying that momentum and how to maintain it with out exceeding the limits of our cars. He also advises us to choose corners to find those limits in safely. Surprisingly it seemed that everyone was having a rough start, including the drivers of the high HP cars. He said with HP comes a whole new set of problems and things to compensate for. This really got me thinking about what I had in store for me car and how my wish list would change. He asked us, “If we could work on one area of the car, what would it be?” Some said suspension, others blurted out brakes and tires, but we were all wrong. He said, “What good is all that grip if you can’t stay in your seat?” Wow I never thought of it like that. Our little circle winds down and we head back to the camp to wait for our next go.

Session 2. This time around I would be riding solo and my brother receiving a passenger. I had certain goals in mind and lined up accordingly in the grid. Sure enough as we set out under the double yellows, the pack began to split. I slowed my pace down considerably in approaching the corners, but that tradeoff allowed me to carry more speed out of the corner with less input from me. As I slowly refined one corner I began working on the next and the next. I forced myself to focus on the next apex and let the car naturally drift and trusting it. In the carousal I set break points and measured the limits of my brakes and tires on the approach. Soon it seemed I was beginning to connect the dots. Not as harsh straight lines, but as semi-smooth curves. I noticed that taking the track in this manner was less strenuous, on my body and on my car. By the end of the session I had learned to progressively use less braking and more precise taps to control my speed and pinpointed which were my trouble corners. I was also able to setup better, find the straight line to brake on and which gear to enter in. It was a strange sensation that although I wasn’t fast, it all made sense. That session I only pointed by 5 cars, a Porsche, a supercharged C5, the FD, the red hatch and that Saturn.

Session 3 would be short as we were loosing sunlight and were 2 hours behind. With only 10 min of track time, I had to make every corner count. I was positioned right behind Veejay in the 350z with my brother and the Saturn behind. We got the ok and onto the track we set. As I hit the front straight under green conditions I engage in a friendly drag race with the 350. I carried a bit more speed off turn 14, but he managed to keep me at bay. As we made the transition down to turn one I found my line and braked early giving me the position I needed for the marker and turn 2. The 350 was a gaining space, but it looked like he pinched the apex too early. On the exit I was full out on the throttle and closed the gap to about 1.5 car lengths. Turn 3 and it’s hard on the breaks. Once again the 350 turns into soon and is scubbing off speed to keep it on the track. There’s no room to pass until the stretch after turn 6, so all I can do is keep on his tail. Despite my efforts in the corner the 350 had blistering acceleration and would pull slowly away on the straights. As turn 5 approached I remember to look back and check my rear. Sure enough the Saturn was hot on my tail. I wanted to continue the cat and mouse game with the 350, but coming out of turn 6, I let off the throttle to let the Saturn pass. I followed and watched as he faded farther away. He was smooth and knew what line kept him fast. From that point my goal now was to gather up all that I had learned in an attempt to catch the 350. I line up the last ‘S’ before the front straight and just nail it. I came out at the top of 3rd and was well into forth before I backed off the throttle and turned into 1. I found my line quickly and got me down to speed for turn 2. As I hold it together drifting to the outer berm between 2 and 3, I see the 350. In my excitement I pinch 3 and really feel the tires taxing to maintain grip and keep me on track. I finally make my line on turn 4 and use 5 to launch out of 6. By this time the 350 is mid into 7. With the pedal down I decide to go all in and throw it into 7. I feel the driver front dampener compress and stick as I rotate out towards 8. Find my bush and its hard brake and through 9. The 350 is in the carousal and with any luck he’s gone in too hot. I feel the bump and brake hard, downshift to 2nd, and turn in. I ride the corner and rocket out on the exit. I find my line and brake hard for…..oops wrong corner. What I thought was 12 was actually 11. I complete the last series of turn and emerge onto the straight with the checker waving. I give a thumb’s up for good measure.

So what happened with session 4? Well the event was running short on time so they decided to combine both HPDE groups. With the heat already claiming 6 cars from previous races, I felt uncomfortable running with the faster cars from HPDE 3 & 4. My first track event had come to and end.

There are so many wonderful things to continue on about, but at this point it’s all a blur. I would definitely recommend everyone give it a go if you have the chance. One thing that did pay off was all the maintenance work. The first session I was concerned about my car and if it would hold up to the rigors of racing. By the last sessions I was steadily in 3rd and 4th powering through corners keeping the RPMs at 4K+ the entire run. It is nerve racking when the car is your daily driver, but in the end I know it’s just that much tougher. The other piece I will walk away from this is the knowledge of my car’s limitations. Braking hard under street conditions is vastly different to the amount of speed and the frequency I was doing it at the track. Thank you Tuners, I’m a trading in the go fast bits for another day at the track!
 
Nice post....I agree with instructor "Pete", The first upgrade for any real performance driving should be a good seat, 4+ point harness and a roll bar. You can't control sh!t from the passenger side or jammed up against the door.
 
Wow, that was an exciting read! :rocks:

+1 for the seat and harness, then it's time for some coilovers! ;)
 
FORMONTOYA said:
Nice post....I agree with instructor "Pete", The first upgrade for any real performance driving should be a good seat, 4+ point harness and a roll bar. You can't control sh!t from the passenger side or jammed up against the door.
Been on my wish list since the beginning.
 
Great write-up... very insightfully written. Your awareness of what you were doing on the track shows that you'll be a good driver (racer), probably sooner then you think!

I'm impressed :thumb:
 
Wow! What a place for your first HPDE! Nice report. It's good to see we have a writer here.

Pretty scary, though.

I can't believe that they were going to let you solo on your first session, which you almost did until an instructor finally stepped in. And then they let you out solo on your second session. Some driving school. Who were those guys? The Mickey Mouse Club? And your instructor...he let you drive like that on your first HPDE session? At TWS? Crikies!

This is the sentence that scared me the most: "As Shawn tried to line me up for the next corner, neither he nor I knew my car at these limits." So this was inevitable: "Lap three, disaster struck as I found myself braking in turn 8 after carrying all that speed from 7"

Excuse me, but Shawn should hang up his instructor credentials. Letting you go balls out on your third lap? At a track like TWS? That borders on incompetence, if not criminal negligence. He might be some great race driver, but he's no instructor. Geez, hie thyself to a GOOD driver school, such as NASA or the Porsche or BMW clubs, before you kill yourself out there.

When we run hot laps at MidAmerica Motorplex (see related post), we let novices go out by themselves, too. But MAM is no high bank, high speed TWS, and there is nothing to hit. Besides, we don't bill ourselves as a driving school. We don't have chalkboard sessions and lectures. We just run hot laps and help anybody who asks. This Texas Mickey Mouse HPDE organization needs to get its head straight before they kill somebody. Letting a student solo on his first ever HPDE session at a high-banked course is insane.

Enough castigating. Happy you survived it. Some more comments:

It looks like the track has mostly left turns. Be sure to check your right front tire for signs of cording. You may want to swap that tire to the rear before you go out again.

Who was Chuck? Was that Chuck Willis? Naw, couldn't be. Chuck would never affiliate himself with a group like that. If he did, I will have something smart to say to him.

Both feet in--I am glad to see that actually works. Always wondered about that...(just kidding).

Watch that "torquing the studs" business. Sooner or later, you are going to twist off a wheel stud. It's OK to put a socket on to check to see if they loosened up, but you don't have to torque them each time. Torque them first thing in the morning, when you swap wheels, and maybe once during the day when they have cooled off thoroughly.

As for the race seat...Don't mount it on a slider. Bolt it to the floor. Sliders break. Once you put in a good race seat, like a Kirkey, daily driving becomes a literal PITA. Also, your stock belts won't work any more, so you'll have to have a 4- or 5-pt harness. And that requires a roll bar with a harness mount, because there's no way you can mount a harness in a DSM without it. If you bolt the harness to the floor in the back, you'll have a 45-deg down angle, and the tech inspectors will have something smart to say about that (Like, that angle can break your back). So, putting in a good race seat REQUIRES a harness and a bar, and removing the back seats. Are you ready to make your beast a dedicated track car?

Hmmm...if you are going back to TWS with that group, you may need to.

While a seat, harness and bar are very nice, I maintain that you should spend that money on race pads, wheels and tires, and seat time. Just brace yourself with your left knee for a while. A good racer's tip is to move the seat back beyond your normal driving position, belt up, and then move the seat forward. It will tighten the belts even more.

Rich
 
Believe it or not Rich that was a NASA event. In Shawn's defense, he wasn't an instructor. He was a local racer that stepped up to give what ever pointers he could, and for that I was grateful. I was shocked that some were allowed out on their first runs solo and later learned that my brother spun his Miata in the carousal shortly after I spun. I can say at no point did I feel really threatened, but I was a little nerve racking crawling out on the track alone. On the second session though I was able to take things more at my pace and I think all the cars quieted up a bit after that first go. This 2.9 is TWS most popular track and I'm happy to have survived. You are correct though, I am looking into a few other venues, Driver's Edge, Porsche Club, and I believe TWS has it's own DE program. Any suggestions on the above? And nope, not Chuck Willis.

As for the seat, it is an worth while, but expensive purchase. I've actually got a good line on a Cobra Monaco seat and have a spec Miata cam lock harness with sub belt from my previous project. The harness bar/rollcage is the big question. They cost the same so I would probably swing for the rollcage, but at the same token this is a daily and hate the idea of a the cops catching glimpse of it. Not that it's illegal, just draws attention. One thing I did learn is that power is not something I need. At these close to stock levels (16G @ 10psi) I was already able to gain enough momentum on the straights to overcome my brakes, tires, and driving ability =)


And more pics on the way....must find cable to digi cam /grrr
 
asian312 said:
Believe it or not Rich that was a NASA event. In Shawn's defense, he wasn't an instructor. He was a local racer that stepped up to give what ever pointers he could, and for that I was grateful. I was shocked that some were allowed out on their first runs solo and later learned that my brother spun his Miata in the carousal shortly after I spun. I can say at no point did I feel really threatened, but I was a little nerve racking crawling out on the track alone. On the second session though I was able to take things more at my pace and I think all the cars quieted up a bit after that first go. This 2.9 is TWS most popular track and I'm happy to have survived. You are correct though, I am looking into a few other venues, Driver's Edge, Porsche Club, and I believe TWS has it's own DE program. Any suggestions on the above? And nope, not Chuck Willis.

Omigawd! A NASA event? I am truly shocked and surprised. I'll PM you with Chuck Willis' email and phone number there in Houston. He can give you good advice about the local scene. You sound as if you have the makings of a hot driver, so we don't want you learning any bad habits.

asian312 said:
As for the seat, it is an worth while, but expensive purchase. I've actually got a good line on a Cobra Monaco seat and have a spec Miata cam lock harness with sub belt from my previous project. The harness bar/rollcage is the big question. They cost the same so I would probably swing for the rollcage, but at the same token this is a daily and hate the idea of a the cops catching glimpse of it.

A true race seat like a Kirkey is actually pretty cheap. It's the pretend-racer seats that are ultra expensive.

I saw a Corvette with a harness bar. It is virtually invisible from the outside, but it provides a strong mount for a harness. Might be a good compromise. If you do go for a cage, have one built. I have a Kirk SCCA cage, and it is a genuine PITA for passengers.

asian312 said:
One thing I did learn is that power is not something I need. At these close to stock levels (16G @ 10psi) I was already able to gain enough momentum on the straights to overcome my brakes, tires, and driving ability =)

Geee...where have we heard that before? I'm glad you realize that NOW, while you still have some money left to spend on getting seat time. Too bad you are so far from MidAmerica Motorplex (Council Bluffs, Iowa). We have an event coming up on the 26th that would be perfect for you.

Rich
 
Lol dont think I havn't thought about it. I'll actually be in AZ playing in a paintball tourny that weekend..and we're driving =p

Right now driving on the streets just isn't the same. I learned a long time ago (the hard way) about playing on the streets, but even more so now, I just want to get back on the track and relive those corners....alas I must wait till Sept. and Oct.

The only harness bar that I have been able to locate is http://www.machv.com/dgharnessbar.html
I would like to take a shot at fabricating something, but I know how to wrench, not weld =(
 
The only point I would like to bring up is about safety....

If you go with a "real" racing seat and 4+ point harness you should stay away from just a harness bar by itself and use at least a 4 point (6 point is better) cage with a harness bar.

Without the cage during a rollover you stand a greater chance of breaking your neck or worse. With the inability of being able to move around in the seat combined with a 4+ point harness that "pins" your shoulders in place you will not be able to "lay down" as you would with the OEM seat and 3 point belt. The roll cage is required to keep the roof from crushing down on your head and neck.

We always think that "this will never happen to me", but you'll be surprised what can happen while "driving in anger". Also a lot safer if the car is NOT a dedicated racer as some of the worst accidents I've seen are on the streets, you just never know what some "yahoo" will do.

Definitely your call, but I wouldn't take the chance myself.
 
You're actually recommending a kirkey seat for a guy who still drives his car on the street? Those have to be the most balls out uncomfortable and cheaply made seats next to those chinese junker "Ralliart" seats you see on Ebay. My old man has a Kirkey in his spitfire, and he loathes it in comparison to my Bride. How is a padded full fiberglass/cf bucket any less of a "race seat" than a Kirkey other than the fact that SCCA club racing guys are cheap? ;)

A decently made set of sliders won't break unless you're talking about those "UNIVERSAL BRACKETS" or regularly go over 3 foot high jumps that make you bang the undercarridge on pavement really hard, otherwise i think a lot of time trials cars with stock seats would be banned.

Also, you do not lie down when you flip over, even in stock seats/any sort of reclineable. You'd have to break the welds on the seat back before that would ever happen! And you're going to break bones before that happens.

The roofs of modern cars do not easily crush in as much as everyone says. I'm not saying that a cage is a bad idea, I think it's honestly just overkill for someone who's doing time trials. If I was to flip over, I'll take fixed backs and 5/6 points versus the factory three and the crappy DSM seats. If you flip over in a DSM and have stock belts, you're going to be laying on the ceiling.

If you wish to honestly continue with this, I'd also more than consider either dropping a lot of weight on the car (hard, expensive, time consuming, and you need to drop down to about 2600 lbs before making the DSM brakes be anywhere near a set of stock EVO brembos), or investing in a good set of brakes (easy but big chunk expensive, and will require decent wheels). You'll learn this quickly on high speed courses when you're replacing a set of 150 dollar pads every day. A Brembo Gran Turismo brake setup or similar setup from Stoptech/AP/Wilwood will make your brakes lasting 1 day total to about 4 track days before the brake system feels like it's going to give out. It'll take a while for the payout to be even, but by the time you factor in the rotor exchanges, the pad burn through, the caliper rebuilds, etc etc etc... It's just a better idea.

On the day, I can comment that I really kinda don't like the boy racer mentality of playing "cat and mouse" with other cars on the track, especially for a first day. That's what ITE/SCCA/NASA is for, not lapping days, and not time trials. When you've gotten to a point where you know your car enough, it's more than likely that you're going to pull in and let them putter around and then go out with more free space to play with. I saw this kind of crap going on at the Redline Time Attack this weekend, and it pissed me off to no end. But that's a whole 'nother can of worms with their organization.

I also think the soloing idea on your first day is an absolutely awful idea. Who ever came up with that on that kind of course is... Urgh...

Anyways good luck. We always need more people willing to drop stupid amounts of cash on these cars.
 
A 6pt bar with race seats is a bit more of a pain on a D.D. ingress/egress level. Not totally unlivable for a youngster though. The non-folding nature of race seats combined with the cross bar does render the rear seat even more useless ROFL . O well, take the seat out & the weight of the bar becomes a push.
 
cait sith said:
You're actually recommending a kirkey seat for a guy who still drives his car on the street? Those have to be the most balls out uncomfortable and cheaply made seats next to those chinese junker "Ralliart" seats you see on Ebay. My old man has a Kirkey in his spitfire, and he loathes it in comparison to my Bride. How is a padded full fiberglass/cf bucket any less of a "race seat" than a Kirkey other than the fact that SCCA club racing guys are cheap? ;).

I think I said something like, a race seat is a genuine PITA. I have a Kirkey, and it is just fine for racing, but I don't drive it on the street.

cait sith said:
A decently made set of sliders won't break unless you're talking about those "UNIVERSAL BRACKETS" or regularly go over 3 foot high jumps that make you bang the undercarridge on pavement really hard,

Yes, they do. I know a guy who mounted a race seat on a slider, thumped a guardrail very hard, and wound up under the steering wheel because the slider broke.

cait sith said:
The roofs of modern cars do not easily crush in as much as everyone says. I'm not saying that a cage is a bad idea, I think it's honestly just overkill for someone who's doing time trials. .

I agree. Except for HPDE4 and TT. I think those classes should require a bar, belts and seats. Up to that point, stock is OK

cait sith said:
If you wish to honestly continue with this, I'd also more than consider either dropping a lot of weight on the car (hard, expensive, time consuming, and you need to drop down to about 2600 lbs before making the DSM brakes be anywhere near a set of stock EVO brembos), or investing in a good set of brakes (easy but big chunk expensive, and will require decent wheels). You'll learn this quickly on high speed courses when you're replacing a set of 150 dollar pads every day. A Brembo Gran Turismo brake setup or similar setup from Stoptech/AP/Wilwood will make your brakes lasting 1 day total to about 4 track days before the brake system feels like it's going to give out. It'll take a while for the payout to be even, but by the time you factor in the rotor exchanges, the pad burn through, the caliper rebuilds, etc etc etc... It's just a better idea.

I think my recommendation was to upgrade the brakes, wheels and tires first, so I think we agree.

cait sith said:
On the day, I can comment that I really kinda don't like the boy racer mentality of playing "cat and mouse" with other cars on the track, especially for a first day. That's what ITE/SCCA/NASA is for, not lapping days, and not time trials. When you've gotten to a point where you know your car enough, it's more than likely that you're going to pull in and let them putter around and then go out with more free space to play with. I saw this kind of crap going on at the Redline Time Attack this weekend, and it pissed me off to no end. But that's a whole 'nother can of worms with their organization.
I also think the soloing idea on your first day is an absolutely awful idea. Who ever came up with that on that kind of course is... Urgh....

We definitely agree on this. Somebody ought to say something smart to NASA SW about the TMS organizers.

Rich
 
OMG Hope I didn't stir up the hornet's nest?

The boy racer “cat and mouse” was not racing or trying to push the car in front of me. It was my way to see how well I had improved through the sessions. I apologize if I portrayed that poorly. I understood the rules for passing and at no point did I feel Veejay would block me intentionally or do any harm to either of our cars. It’s all about getting better, but even that requires some kind of benchmark. I just made mine a moving one with lots of space in between.

I’d like to think I would be able to participate in these events without having to fully dedicate my car to the track. At this stage I know there’s a lot for me to still absorb before relying on performance parts to increase my speed/time. Getting my car to 2600lbs requires getting rid of amenities that I use every day, such as A/C. I live in Texas….you need A/C. If I were to get a seat it would spend most of its life in the garage until track day. At which point it would go in and then come out again =)

I’m curious on your last comment though?
Ciat said:
We always need more people willing to drop stupid amounts of cash on these cars.”
Are DSMs bad platforms for this venture?
 
This thread is now in the hands of the National Director of NASA. Be assured that future SW HPDE events will be held in accordance with NASA policy :thumb:


asian312 Are DSMs bad platforms for this venture?

Any stock vehicle will take a certain amount of cash to prepare it for the grueling effects of road racing. I personally have had great success with my Laser...
 
asian312 said:
OMG Hope I didn't stir up the hornet's nest? The boy racer “cat and mouse” was not racing or trying to push the car in front of me. It was my way to see how well I had improved through the sessions. I apologize if I portrayed that poorly. I understood the rules for passing and at no point did I feel Veejay would block me intentionally or do any harm to either of our cars. It’s all about getting better, but even that requires some kind of benchmark. I just made mine a moving one with lots of space in between.

Nah, not to worry. We've been around enough to know what goes on. You get the red film, and it's up to the instructor to slow you down and make you drive safely and sanely. You just did what every red-blooded young man wants to do. We've also seen events like Redline Time Attack and Speedseekers, where you take your life in your hands with idiots racing with no experience, so we know what's a good event and a bad one. You attended a badly run event, in our collective opinion. It's our job, as people who almost know what we are doing, to correct such a situation before the Mickey Mouse driving school kills somebody, drives up the cost of insurance, and puts and end to our sport. I see from the post above that GC has taken care of that little matter.

asian312 said:
I’d like to think I would be able to participate in these events without having to fully dedicate my car to the track. At this stage I know there’s a lot for me to still absorb before relying on performance parts to increase my speed/time. Getting my car to 2600lbs requires getting rid of amenities that I use every day, such as A/C. I live in Texas….you need A/C. If I were to get a seat it would spend most of its life in the garage until track day. At which point it would go in and then come out again =)

Yes you can drive a basically stock car. Go back to my advice: Don't mod the car. Improve the brakes, wheels and tires for safety, but don't mod the motor. Your car is just fine the way it is, unless it is tired iron and prone to break.

asian312 said:
I’m curious on your last comment though? Are DSMs bad platforms for this venture?

That is a very good question. There are not enough of us out there running DSMs to judge. Greg Collier is certainly the most successful, and has proven that the potential is there at the top end for fully-modded DSMs.

Mine is modded somewhat, but nowhere near Gregg's class. He runs TTU and I run TTB, so we are a billion mod points apart.

I like running DSMs because I am usually the only one on the track, and I can run with Z06es, M3s, 5.0s, and 911s in my class.

I think an almost-stock AWD DSM is a great track car, especially when learning.

If one of us DSMers wins the NASA TTB national championship next year, that will prove that a modded DSM is competitive, and is a car that most of us can afford; i.e., a $3,000 car with $10,000 in mods can run with $100,000 Z06es, M3s, etc. I am waiting for that day as fast as I can.

Rich
 
asian312 said:
Is that even far to call it a Laser still :thumb:

You've done wonders with that car and I love reading about your races. Speaking of which...


Push push... push push... hey, I've got to make a living to support all the juice that goes in to the banana :beatentodeath:

Then what the hell am I doing on here right now :shhh:







;)
 
cait sith said:
Also, you do not lie down when you flip over, even in stock seats/any sort of reclineable. You'd have to break the welds on the seat back before that would ever happen! And you're going to break bones before that happens.

If you flip over in a DSM and have stock belts, you're going to be laying on the ceiling.


I didn't mean that you could lay back, but rather have movement to the side. And I agree, in a rollover with stock seats and belts someone could actually come out of the seat. However, I would rather roll over with a stock seat/belt than a fixed back seat and a 4+ point harness if I didn't have a cage/roll bar, but that's just me.

And I definitely agree that even in stock form a DSM has plenty of motor compared to the brakes and suspension. I've never figured out why the auto engineers put a turbo motor on a 3000LBS "sports" car with 10" rotors (2G FWD) and such sloppy suspension. Granted it's better than some out of the box, but it's still crap.

Oh yea.....money.
 
Actually, the roofs of modern cars still aren't all that strong. Sure, they're plenty strong enough if you just roll over and don't get very airborn, but last year at Gingerman I saw a CRX lose his brakes and endo during the off track excursion. The front end hit a ditch and the car flipped up into the air, eventually landing on the roof.

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Luckily the driver wasn't hurt, but he had a harness and no bar.
 
Slow old poop said:
There are not enough of us out there running DSMs to judge.
Neil Hannemann is worth a google, since he drove a 1G and a 2G, although Archer Racing has long since switched to Vipers.

- Jtoby
 
Greg Collier said:
Just wondering if you were aware of this accident in the American Iron series on the same weekend of your HPDE?

www.donovanracing.com/Micah_Bishop_TWS_Aug_6_2006_Small.wmv

I am impressed by the exceptional speed of the rescue and safety crews, which got to that wrecked car instantly, helped him out of the car, made sure he was OK, then rushed back to their safety positions in case there was another wreck. They must have worked at lightning speed, so fast we can't see it on the screen. The corner workers behind the wreck are certainly ignoring the driver, so he must be OK. Isn't that what happened?

What? He got out all by himself? You mean he was wandering around the car after rolling it five times with no safety or medical workers in sight? Like, maybe with a concussion, a broken bone or two, in shock, dazed and bleeding?

I don't see corner workers showing flags that an emergency vehicle is on the track. Apparently, an emergency vehicle is NOT coming to the scene. Neither are the nearest corner workers.

Yer on yer own, pal. Hope y'all ain't hurt. This here is Texas, whar we don't get upset unless y'all roll over SIX times. Then we'll mosey on over.

Remember how fast the safety crew got to that Evo driver who rolled at Willow Springs? THAT's how a good crew works. Crikies, they were at the door before the dust settled.

I guess all of TWS's safety and medical workers were out pretending to be instructors for the NASA Mickey Mouse Racing Club that day.

I hate to beat this to death, but the NASA Mickey Mouse Racing Club needs to be brought to task on this issue, too. Who runs that safety crew? Goofy?

I also can't believe that the Texas AI-CMC thought this incident was so cool that they edited the video, put a happy rock sound track on it, and got it up on the web real fast so we could all witness the incompetence of the NASA Mickey Mouse Racing Club safety crew and corner workers.

There are some sick puppies out there. I hope they stay in Texas. Crap like this makes me value my Midwest NASA group even more. My NASA guys are GOOD!

Gawd, I hope they don't run the NASA Nationals at TWS next year.

Rich
 
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