Oil Consumption Part deuce

[Blitzeclips]

While reading the thread about oil consumption I was hoping to get insight on a oil consumption my car has also.

I had the motor replaced with Howell's Lond-rod 2.2L stroker. Forged, bored, blah blah blah it can handle boost. Anyways, since the install I've been leaking about a teaspoon of oil every day or two. It's the O-ring in the bedplate, and I know you need to remove the motor for fix.

Problem is, I am NOT pulling that thing out again for this little O-Ring. I've read around and from what I've gathered and think, it doesn't seem to be a huge problem, as long as I keep up with the oil loss(checking every day or so).

I plan on boosting in June. I'm worried about the leak. I don't think it should or will be a major issue, but I'm concerned about if it is. Worst case scenario, ya know. Best thing I can think of to fix this would be jack the car up, get some contact brake cleaner and dry/ clean the surface (location of leak) and blot some GOOP or maybe an epoxy on my finger, and just seal it up. Im thinking the oil may end up place I don't want it tto be(gasket) . BUT, It's not around important areas, its literally where you would want extra oil to go, the port.

My question here is, what could go wrong with my motor due to the leak when I boost? How would you go about fixing or atleast patching the leak? Please, dont say motor pull, it's much easier to type then actually do. Plus I already know thats the primary cure, but my LAST LAST option.. TIA for any help. I appreciate it.

 

[DSMcrazy3]

When you boost, the oil pressure will rise at a higher rate than it does now, so it may become a problem then. Or atleast start leaking more, especially under boost.

If you have a problem, and you know about it, you need to fix it. Otherwise you're subjecting yourself to a much greater problem.

 

[GSGoinFast]

When you boost, the oil pressure will rise at a higher rate than it does now, so it may become a problem then. Or atleast start leaking more, especially under boost.

Oil pressure is RPM and viscosity related, not manifold pressure related. Boost won't affect oil pressure.

If you have a problem, and you know about it, you need to fix it. Otherwise you're subjecting yourself to a much greater problem.

Yeah, basically. You can try fixing the leak with epoxy if you want, thats how I cured my oil return line leak. Took about 3 coats of JB weld to get it to stop though. But you SHOULD pull the motor back out.

 

[DSMcrazy3]

Oil pressure is RPM and viscosity related, not manifold pressure related. Boost won't affect oil pressure.

Right, I was saying the RPM's will rise more quickly when boosted(and at WOT) than it does right now, causing the oil pressure to rise more quickly, possibly causing more to leak out during that time.

 

[Blitzeclips]

So the raise in oil pressure (assuming it does) would techincally, just increase the leak. It wouldn't have any harmful effects. Doesn't sound like it would atleast. If I sealed it up, the problem would be solved on both ends, no leak at all and no excessive leak from boost- all sealed up...

Can anyone think of other problems this may cause? I'm trying to brainstorm on the owrst case scenario for the problem, and eliminate the contributing factors.

 

[DSMcrazy3]

If you seal it up, chances are you will be fine. Check the oil level periodically though, just to make sure it hasn't broken its seal.

However, I still strongly recommend you pull it out and fix it right.

 

[Blitzeclips]

Thats good news. I wantted to check with you guys on possible problems with the leak, seems like sealing it up should be OK until I need to pull the motor out again, then I'll fix it.

While we're at it, I can't figure out the proper sizes and fitting for my oil return and feed lines. I know both of you are turboed already, so I'm hoping you can hook me up with the list needed for my lines.

I THINK this is how it is?:

Return would be 1/4" SS braided
Feed would be 1/8" SS

I have no idea what else I need for the complete package, ready to go oil lines. Any help would be great. I've been putting off buying these items because I don't know what I need! (well, EXACTLY) Therefore, no order.

BTW, I've got a super 20G, I believe it shares the same line setup and fittings as the 16G.

 

[DSMcrazy3]

Oil line sizes go in -an measurements.

Feed is -4an
Return I believe is -10an.

-4an translates into 1/4"
I can't remember what -10 an translates to.

I'm using rubber heater hose for my oil return line. It's 3/4" and I haven't had any problems.

 

[Blitzeclips]

Oil line sizes go in -an measurements.

Feed is -4an
Return I believe is -10an.

-4an translates into 1/4"
I can't remember what -10 an translates to.

I'm using rubber heater hose for my oil return line. It's 3/4" and I haven't had any problems.

Okay, awhat size fittings would go along with the lines? I'm guessing NPT brass, but I'm pretty sure a tee is require for the sending unit? Am I wrong?

What size fittings did you go with? Where were they used? End of return, turbo? Tees? Sorry to seem demanding with these numbers and parts, I'm just trying to piece the last of my kit together.. And I've been stuck on these damn fittings n such too long.

 

[GSGoinFast]

Okay, awhat size fittings would go along with the lines? I'm guessing NPT brass, but I'm pretty sure a tee is require for the sending unit? Am I wrong?

What size fittings did you go with? Where were they used? End of return, turbo? Tees? Sorry to seem demanding with these numbers and parts, I'm just trying to piece the last of my kit together.. And I've been stuck on these damn fittings n such too long.

http://dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181134
check out the oil line section

 

[Blitzeclips]

http://dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181134
check out the oil line section

Good shit, Chris. Thats quite the write-up. I'm sure I'll be using it as a reference during my install.
I do have a question though, you listed 6 feet of SS line. 6 Feet? I thought it would be around 24-28 inches from the sending unit to the oil inlet.
One more question : I want to buy DEI Perma-cool sleeves for oil lines. Think it would be a good idea as far as protection and cooling goes?

 

[Talon ESI-T]

Boost may not affect oil pressure but it will affect crankcase pressure which will affect oil pressure indirectly.

You cant seal the bedplate without takeing the motor out, feel free to goo up the back side all you want. You could say its no big deal, i lost a quart every 20mins when mine failed.

Terry

 

[Blitzeclips]

Boost may not affect oil pressure but it will affect crankcase pressure which will affect oil pressure indirectly.

You cant seal the bedplate without takeing the motor out, feel free to goo up the back side all you want. You could say its no big deal, i lost a quart every 20mins when mine failed.

Terry

I'm not sure if I understand correctly, but losing a quart of oil in 20 minutes is pretty extensive. Are you emplying this can be harmful or not?

Would epoxying the back side eliminate the leak to a safe level? If not, how so?

 

[VelocitàPaola]

I'm not sure if I understand correctly, but losing a quart of oil in 20 minutes is pretty extensive. Are you emplying this can be harmful or not?

No... he's implying that slapping some epoxy on your engine is no way to fix an oil leak. Keep this in mind; epoxies need a clean, rough surface to adhere to and cure. If you try to fix it this way, all you'll be doing is making a mess.

Someone screwed up when while building the engine, and there's only one way to fix it; tear off the bedplate and replace the missing/damaged O-ring. If you want to try to band-aid the situation, go ahead, but you will have to fix it the right way sooner or later.

 

[Blitzeclips]

If I put off fixing the correct way too long, whats the worst that can happen?

 

[VelocitàPaola]

You'll have to buy a $1.36 worth of oil every 20 minutes and find a way to clean up all of that half dried epoxy slathered all over your block.

Rule #1 of car modification: Make sure your car is in perfect shape before adding any performance mods.

 

[Blitzeclips]

You'll have to buy a $1.36 worth of oil every 20 minutes and find a way to clean up all of that half dried epoxy slathered all over your block.

Rule #1 of car modification: Make sure your car is in perfect shape before adding any performance mods.

Yeah, that would suck for sure.
Youre right with the rule. But I still refuse to pull that motor until I see how the epoxy holds up. Its just something I don't have the time nor tools for. Reason is, I had to pull alot of freidns together for the motor swap alone. One brought the cherry picker, one let me use his lift, some gave me special tools, it's just such a time consuming thing. I want to exhaust my options before I pull it out again.

But believe me, I will heed your warning, and Terry's especially. Only time will tell...

BTW, does the feed line for my turbo have to be a specific size? Or just a SS braided? If it's a specific size, please share what you know for the 16g or 20g! Thanks again guys..

 

[VelocitàPaola]

4-AN; that's the standard size. Turbos like to receive oil flowing at a specific rate. If you use lines that are too small, you'll starve them: if you use lines that are too big, you'll flood them (see the feed line/oil restrictor Tech Article).

The return line is either 10-AN or 8-AN (minimum), but the size isn't as critical here. Like Josh said, a standard 3/4" heater hose would suffice.



As for the block, why don't you contact Howell and bi*** at them? This is supposedly their fault...

 

[Blitzeclips]

4-AN; that's the standard size. Turbos like to receive oil flowing at a specific rate. If you use lines that are too small, you'll starve them: if you use lines that are too big, you'll flood them (see the feed line/oil restrictor Tech Article).

The return line is either 10-AN or 8-AN (minimum), but the size isn't as critical here. Like Josh said, a standard 3/4" heater hose would suffice.



As for the block, why don't you contact Howell and bi*** at them? This is supposedly their fault...

I did call Howell and I bitched at Gary, my mechanic even bitched at Gary! Gary is hard headed but a decent guy, he claimed it wasn't his fault but mine for not replacing the ring during installation. So then, he asked what type of oil I had in it, I said synthetic. He said... The viscosity of synthetic made the O ring prone to damage, therefore a conributing factor. I told him BS, he held to his plead. Eventually, he said if I pull the motor again, and bring it to him, then he would replace the O-ring for free?? WTF WTF Why would I pull the motor again, load it up, drain all fluids, and drive 5 hours for him to fix this $2 part??

Eh, I ended up kinda screwed but it is what it is: Now I've got to deal with it.

 

[XMasta19]

Fix that leak!


Oil feed --> -4an = 1/4"

Oil return --> -10an = 5/8"

 

[Talon ESI-T]

I did call Howell and I bitched at Gary, my mechanic even bitched at Gary! Gary is hard headed but a decent guy, he claimed it wasn't his fault but mine for not replacing the ring during installation. So then, he asked what type of oil I had in it, I said synthetic. He said... The viscosity of synthetic made the O ring prone to damage, therefore a conributing factor. I told him BS, he held to his plead. Eventually, he said if I pull the motor again, and bring it to him, then he would replace the O-ring for free?? WTF WTF Why would I pull the motor again, load it up, drain all fluids, and drive 5 hours for him to fix this $2 part??

Eh, I ended up kinda screwed but it is what it is: Now I've got to deal with it.

Howell Auto will only tell you what they need to to shift the blame onto you (very common with them). My silver 97 has had synthetic after break in when this same seal was replaced (shop that assembled the motor left the seal out which i suspect Howell did with yours too. Anerobic wont seal that area up.) This is also why i wont let anyone build my motors for me, regardless of how busy I am.

My LT1 has synthetic installed at 65k and no leaks when i sold it at 200k.

Both daily drivers (DSM's) have synthetic put in at 115k/125k and no leaks. Talon is wore out it burns it though.

10w-30 is 10w-30 regardless of synthetic or not. Viscosity rating is not different per type of oil. Synthetic has different characteristics but weight is the same. Is 50lbs of water heavier than 50lbs of "heavy" (h3) water? Tell Gary to go back to passing out karts at wally world. Now you know why we dont like to deal with Howell.

You cannot seal that leak with epoxy...period. If you want an explanation as to why? I am sorry, there is no explanation i can give you that will explain common sense. There is one way you can seal up oil leaks with epoxy, dip the motor in a vat of mixed epoxy so it completely in a shell, then no oil can get passed any seam. Just think about it for a while, let it soak in.

Terry

 

[Blitzeclips]

Howell Auto will only tell you what they need to to shift the blame onto you (very common with them). My silver 97 has had synthetic after break in when this same seal was replaced (shop that assembled the motor left the seal out which i suspect Howell did with yours too. Anerobic wont seal that area up.) This is also why i wont let anyone build my motors for me, regardless of how busy I am.

My LT1 has synthetic installed at 65k and no leaks when i sold it at 200k.

Both daily drivers (DSM's) have synthetic put in at 115k/125k and no leaks. Talon is wore out it burns it though.

10w-30 is 10w-30 regardless of synthetic or not. Viscosity rating is not different per type of oil. Synthetic has different characteristics but weight is the same. Is 50lbs of water heavier than 50lbs of "heavy" (h3) water? Tell Gary to go back to passing out karts at wally world. Now you know why we dont like to deal with Howell.

You cannot seal that leak with epoxy...period. If you want an explanation as to why? I am sorry, there is no explanation i can give you that will explain common sense. There is one way you can seal up oil leaks with epoxy, dip the motor in a vat of mixed epoxy so it completely in a shell, then no oil can get passed any seam. Just think about it for a while, let it soak in.

Terry

Damn you Terry! Now you actually have me thinking of pulling the motor again..

Yea I've called it quits with Howell. I meen, it was bad enough they took 16 weeks to build it, then shipped it for the hefty $350, which I told them not to(planned for pick-up to save some money) then somehow the issue became my fault.

I got what I needed from them and now I'm done with em.

So the question now is motor removal. Do you think theres a way to fix this without pulling t
he motor completely. Maybe drop the tranny, lower crossmember, unhook everything and slide it over to access the bed plate freely enough for the good ol O-ring replacement?

 

[XMasta19]

Fix that leak!

 

[Talon ESI-T]

Fix without pulling the motor? I know of one person on 2gnt that did it and I would never do that. Its a pain in the butt to start with. Laying on your back can just open you up to all kinds of sealing issues. Best way to look at this is: Its early in the summer, not too hot out, just get it over with. The leak can get much worst and probably will. Do you want to lose a motor or do this in 95 degree weather? No of course not, so now is as good as any.

As far method of pulling the motor, I have pulled/dropped it every way you can think of. Best way for me is in 2 stages; Top & Bottom.

Part 1:

1. Jack car up w/stands
2. Drop crossmember, remove inspection plate, braces and clutch bolts.
3. remove rear motor to trans bolt (18mm)
4. Disconnect downpipe (if stock or 2 piece turbo DP)
5. Replace crossmember, just thread in bolts dont tighten you will see why


Part 2:
1. remove intake assy or IC pipes
2. remove battery and hold down pieces
3. Remove wire harness from pass side to drivers side, tuck in Batt location
3a, note: disconnect the harness plug that goes to the backside of block, do not remove all that wiring, just disconnect it at the harness plug

4. Unbolt Alternator wires (white 10Ga wires) at fuse box and drape over intake mani (10mm Bolts)
5. Disconnect fuel line at rail
6. Drain coolant, remove radiator and hoses, disconnect heater hoses
7. Remove A/C compressor and tie to bottom of car
8. Remove Throttle cable
9. Disconnect vac lines to Emissions in pass wheel well.
10. Place jack under trans and remove 3 nuts on driverside mount (this is to tilt trans)
11. remove starter bolts, slide starter onto water pipe, disconnect white connector in harness right by starter. (solinoid wire) lay battery/starter harness on exhaust.
12. Install hoist on motor
13. Remove motor to trans bolts (3 of them left)
14. Lower jack unde trans to tilt trans away from motor, crossmember will support bellhousing.
15. Remove pass side motor mount
16. Lift motor past tranny and out.

With this method I pull a motor in less than 1 hour

Things to be careful.

When you put a fully assemble motor on the stand and rotate it, the top will be extremely heavy so use the hoist for safety measures.

One of the mount points for the engine stand is the bedplate that you will need to remove. Use the hoist attached to the front of the motor to support the front portion so nothing goest wrong. Remember a fully loaded motor is a lot of weight for only 3 mount points.

Take your time removing the bedplate, obsearve torque sequence in reverse to remove the bolts, use Anerobic to seal the plate.

Be careful

Should take you no more than 4 hours tops

Personally, i think dropping the trans is more work than the motor. Unless you like rusted suspensions.

Terry

 

[XMasta19]

wow