Need to change my suspension setup

[ryboj]

I searched and read up on some posts for the last 2 hours, but now I want to lock in an answer as to what to do.

I enjoyed my stock ride quality (springs) originally, but the shocks I had were just worn out. Then, I went ahead and bought a new setup out of the blue and hadn't spent a lot of time researching. So I'm doing this backwards, which is not like me.

Sadly, I didn't save the stock springs when I did the swap to the Tokico non adjustable struts with their matching springs about a year ago or less, which was the 1.5 front and 1.3 rear lower ride height setup.

Problem is, since the swap, I can't stand the way my car rides.

1: It's a hair too low

2: It's abrupt

3: It's harsh

4: It's terrible over taking any type of small or large road bump

The only nice thing is, is the braking quality went up with this setup and it obviously corners better, etc. But really, I'm no racer, this is just a DD.

I want a change to something more road compliant and comfy, but I don't want to invest too much since the car is high mileage. I also still have stock 16's, so I don't have a gap issue. If I make a tire/wheel change in the future, I'll go to a 17", so gap will never be an issue.

SO.......Can I just keep the Tokico struts and run something like the Tein H type springs or something? Or is this too much of a mis-match? Or would the S type be better matched, or will it be too harsh like my current springs?

Let me know what I ought to do.... I don't want to do this 3x, if you know what I mean...

Thanks.....

 

[PieEyedPiper]

I'm not convinced any of your proposed spring changes will help out your situation.
You may have to try H&r OE's? I'm not sure if there are any other springs out there that will address this. GC's would be an option.

 

[Black99gst]

the springs are hard, but the non adjustable shocks are even harder... they are about like illumina's on 5 all the way around... maybe see if you can find some illuminas for cheap? i have my illuminas at 2 in the front, and 3 in the rear, and its pretty "stock" FEELING on bumps and the freeway

 

[ryboj]

Pie: Thanks for the honest evaluation. Here's what I found on the OE's just one search:

" H&R OE Sport Springs lower your vehicle subtly, giving it a slightly more aggressive stance without radically changing its appearance.

Designed to enhance front-to-rear balance and street handling performance, OE Sport Springs take the "wallow" out of the stock suspension, providing a more controlled feel and improved ride characteristics. All this while retaining the ride comfort you're accustomed to with added confidence. "

Are there other characteristics of these springs that would make them more road worthy? Also, if they were what I'm looking for, it sounds like from the other post the struts I have are just too harsh too. Hmm

Black: Thanks too for the real feedback. So Illuminas would work.... almost a stock feeling. Now, as for the springs I have....would it be better to swap those out for something else too like Pie mentioned, or can I get away with them using a better strut like you mentioned.

Again, if I have to spend $350 again, I don't mind, but I only want to do it one more time. Otherwise, if there is something I can work with here, I want to do that first obviously to keep the cost down.

Thanks for the help thus far...

 

[PieEyedPiper]

The problem is that most lowering springs, such as Prokits, Tein, or S-tech, are too soft and more comparable to stock spring rates than a "performance" spring. Some are even lower than stock spring rates, such as Eibach Sportlines.
You need to have more spring rate if you intend to drop the car.
This is why my examples, and some of your suggestions above, aren't really suitable considering your goals. Granted, you could pair such springs with something adjustable, like Illuminas, to "tune" out a little harshness and get the feel you're looking for.

If you keep your current springs you might think the same thing. Too low, and probably too harsh.
If you purchased appropriate springs (something with a mild drop and a high enough springs rate), such as H&R OE's you'd probably be better off than you are now. However, if the HP shocks are as stiff as suggested by Black99gst, then you might still want more.

Either way, you are going to ditch those springs because they drop too much, right?
So my suggestion is that if you're not going to drop $700+ on Koni's + Ground Controls, then you ought to try the H&R OE springs for ~$240. They drop ~1" and are reported to have stiffer rates that are more suitable for the task. They just might be a closer match to the shocks and could give you the feel you're looking for while still dropping a bit - yet staying off that speed bump down the street and not scraping when you're backing down your driveway.

 

[ryboj]

Pie....I follow your logic.

Yes, I would prefer not to be dropped as much as I am currently. And yes, I don't want it to be as harsh. It's not disgustingly brutal, but it's not good where it's at.

You see, I'm taking the car on a long trip this coming Friday, so I'm having the camber/caster adjusters put on front and rear tomorrow and having the alignment re-done to get everything in proper spec the way the car sits currently.

But, when I get back, I want to address the ride quality. (I also hope I don't have to change the camber caster adjustment parts going on tomorrow that having the degree of correction needed for my current setup).

So, if H&R OE springs are the recommendation for my goals, I'll give them a whirl. If it's still too harsh, I guess then I'll need those adjustable ones Black was recommending to "tune" them to my liking.

So, I'll either be out $250 bucks for the springs, or $250+380 for springs and new struts.

Thanks for more input....

 

[asian312]

Having owned H&R OE springs, it sounds like it may be a bit harsher than you are looking for. Normally I recommend Tokico/Eibach Pro-Kits for pure street use and Koni/H&Rs for those looking for a little more aggressive suspension (track days, ect.).

Remember that it is equally important to match a shock/strut to the spring. Otherwise you end up with not enough dampening and uncomfortable ride quality.

 

[ryboj]

Hmm, so do I need to reconsider, or is the advice thus far fairly sound to proceed forward? Either way, it might be a two step process if I can't find the right balance with my struts given I buy a different set of springs initially.... The advice has been helpful either way.

 

[romeen]

I completely agree with everything that asian312 is saying.

I had the Prokit/Illumina combo but I wasn't satisfied with the handling, too much wallow. Car was also too low for everday driving and practicality. I switched to the H&R OE Sports and kept the Illuminas. Although H&R won't make available the spring rates for their Sport line, it is clear that the OE Sports have a higher spring rate than the Eibach Prokit. Handling is significantly better with the OE Sports. However, the ride quality/comfort of the Prokit is better (at least when paired with the Illuminas).

You can take a look at this thread for some pics of my GS-T with the OE Sports to get an idea of the drop.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/handling-tech/264868-switching-eibach-h-r-springs.html

 

[PieEyedPiper]

I completely agree with everything that asian312 is saying.

I had the Prokit/Illumina combo but I wasn't satisfied with the handling, too much wallow. Car was also too low for everday driving and practicality. I switched to the H&R OE Sports and kept the Illuminas. Although H&R won't make available the spring rates for their Sport line, it is clear that the OE Sports have a higher spring rate than the Eibach Prokit. Handling is significantly better with the OE Sports. However, the ride quality/comfort of the Prokit is better (at least when paired with the Illuminas).

You can take a look at this thread for some pics of my GS-T with the OE Sports to get an idea of the drop.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/handling-tech/264868-switching-eibach-h-r-springs.html

I completely agree with you, Romeen, and asian312.
I too own the Illuminas/Prokits and I dislike it for the very same reasons. Too much wallow (soft springs rates comparable to stock) and it's still just a tad low for everyday driving.

This is why I won't recommend the Prokits to anyone. But perhaps in this case I did overlook this possibility. If the OP thinks that Prokits sound right for him, then by all means. If I were to do it over, I'd still choose Ground Controls or H&R OE Sport springs though.

I find that with my Illuminas (w/ Prokits) set to 2 in the front, and 3 in the rear the car is downright dangerous on twisty roads when I'm really pushing the car. Too much wallow and immense rebound that makes the car feel like it might leave the ground. But settings of 5/5 give me a great feeling on the road. I just yearn for more spring rate and some extra travel ( or less drop), especially with the SPC adjustable control arms.

BTW, my car is my DD. 35miles highway time, everyday.

 

[romeen]

I find that with my Illuminas (w/ Prokits) set to 2 in the front, and 3 in the rear the car is downright dangerous on twisty roads when I'm really pushing the car. Too much wallow and immense rebound that makes the car feel like it might leave the ground. But settings of 5/5 give me a great feeling on the road.

Yep, that's exactly what it felt like to me when driving the car hard with the Prokit.

5/5 setting with the Illuminas/Prokit did have a pretty good feel to it. But any setting on the Illuminas with the OE Sports and the car just feels really taut and planted. But like I said the ride is somewhat harsh. Most guys seem to run their Illuminas stiffer in the rear to combat understeer (per Tokico's instructions). But through trial and error I feel that setting them to the same adjustment for front and rear seems to give me the best results.

ryboj, I am not trying to sway you towards one or the other. Just letting you know what my personal experience was to hopefully help you make an informed decision. Eibach and H&R both make a quality spring. They're just different, each one having it's pros/cons. Personally, I am very happy that I switched to the H&R's because of the performance aspect and I'm not scraping my front fascia or undercarriage all the time. It made performance driving a lot more fun for me.

On the flip side, in addition to the Prokit having a more comfortable ride most guys would probably say that the slightly bigger drop of the Prokit looks better. I am still on the stock 16's too. It looked pretty good with the Prokit. With the H&R's there will definitely be a more noticeable wheel gap (see the thread that I linked to for pics). For me I am more into performance and practicality than looks so my choice was easy.

 

[ryboj]

Wow. You guys have all given me multiple perspectives all the way around here, and at this point, all on the same page. Nice. I've even recd some very insightful PM's on the same subject. Thanks all.

It does concern me some that your more spirited driving experiences weren't all that positive with the more lax and comfy ProKit springs, even with the adjustability of the illuminas, but were somewhat satisfied with them being cranked up to 5, but not really enough to make me go out there and install them tonight or anything.

So, at the end of the day, as it comes to springs, and aesthetics aren't all that critical (as I don't need/want a car that's too low), the H&R OE ones might be the "closest" ticket to having the best balance and still potential to perform when asked to.

However, I guess the question still remains, will they be like-able with my non adjust Tokico's, or will I be forced into grabbing some adjustable Illuminas.

I'm thinking the later.....

Thanks again all....

 

[ryboj]

If I did the H&R's, which don't lower the car as much as my current Tokico's, would I need to swap out my camber/caster adjusters I just put on for other ones, or would they just need to be adjusted again along with a new alignment?

 

[romeen]

I would think that the camber/caster adjusters can accomodate and correct the alignment for a range of spring lengths/vehicle height including the 1" drop of the OE Sports. Based on that, the answer to your question should be yes, the alignment shop should be able to use those to get the values back within spec or your own desired values if you wan't to really get into trying to dial in your suspension. An alignment should be done anytime the vehicles height is changed.

Before you get them installed (if you do end up going with the H&R's) maybe consider having a shop put the springs on a spring tester to check the spring rates. No one really knows the rate on them since H&R keeps it a secret.

 

[asian312]

With the H&R springs, I'm not quite sure if the Tokico blues are going to have enough dampening to control the increased spring rates. I haven't experimented with the other combinations, but my Konis were beautiful when set to the softer side of the spectrum.

As far as alignment, I just threw in a few washers in the rear. The fronts were right around 1.2 degrees of camber and the rear around .8. If I ever take my car back to being a street car, I'll switch back to the Koni/H&R combo.

 

[ryboj]

Ok, thanks guys. Looks like I have some direction here. I'll ask around concerning finding someone to measure the spring rates, since it sounds like I'll be headed towards the OE's.

Next is to determine if I should just grab the Illuminas or not at the same time. Something I'll have to ponder since it's quite a bit more money and I didn't see any like new Illuminas for sale. (I had Koni's on my stang before and wasn't too impressed, but I'm sure it's not comparing apples to apples, but it seems there are more experience with the OE/Illuminas than the OE/Koni combo, although I don't doubt your experience at all)

Again, awesome feedback all.