help with logs

[L2RTSiAWD]

W/o and afc you cannot really tune youtr timing curve. On the stock injectors you don't really have any room to play with anyway.

 

[jim97gst]

So even with an AFC I would get bad timing and knock? Would a fuel pump help or will the stock injectors still be my limiting factor?

With an AFC, injectors, and a fuel pump do you think I could tune the car to handle 20 psi spikes with the T25 without the ignition timing being pulled?

I guess at least in the mean time I need to get a boost controller.

Thanks for all your help!

 

[nine5raptor]

ok, with mine. timing is the same whether I am running 7, 10, or 15 psi. 02's are high (.96+) but timing sucks horribly (tip-in is anywhere from 2-7 and the rest of the rpm give a max of about 11-13. I've yet to see over 13 while on the long pedal).

 

[jim97gst]

ok, with mine. timing is the same whether I am running 7, 10, or 15 psi. 02's are high (.96+) but timing sucks horribly

The O2s in my log looked good too. I think I will lower boost temporarily by swapping back in my stock UICP and 2G BOV and see how my timing is then. If it's the same then maybe we both have some other problem.

 

[nine5raptor]

it just doesn't make sense does it?

 

[Tevenor]

Timing loss is not always related to performance. I was suffering from nasty enough knock to lower my timing to -1 (yes 1 degree retard) after tip in. Turned out to be the lifters.

Some things for ESP.

1) In 2001 and 2003, the back date to a 1G BOV is legal. In 2002 it wasn't. (Don't ask or it will get me all riled up again).
2) Piggy back fuel controls are legal in ESP. Read: http://www.moutons.org/sccasolo/Rules/sp.html#s1410 specifically 14.1.D. With the AFC, you won't be able to tune the upper end too well since you can't use a boost controller, but you can use it to lean out and adjust the lower end even without a boost controller. Not recommended unless specifically shooting for ESP.
3) Excess fuel can result in pinging picked up as knock. If you have hte fuel pump rewired, unrewire it until you decide to get a Boost controller.

 

[nine5raptor]

maybe I am getting too much fuel in since lowering the boost results in identical logs to the higher boost levels. I have a rewired stocker and the stevetek upgrade from the filter forward. I tried the 14b at 7, 10, and 15 psi and never got above 11 deg advance.

 

[jim97gst]

OK, I finally got around to getting my stock UICP and BOV back into the car to experiment. The good news is that I no longer have boost spike. My boost hits between 15 and 16 and stays there until the normal drop-off around 5500 RPM with the T25. I know that everyone says that a 2G BOV won't hold more than 13 PSI, but mine has always held 15 PSI with no problem since the installation of a boost gauge on the stock car. I guess I got lucky and got a good one. Anyway, the bad news is that my timing is still getting pulled to 3 deg in 2nd and 8 deg in 3rd. Here's the log:

Time,RPM,Timing,TPS,O2

00:07.48,1484.0,14.0,8.25,0.8
00:07.96,1852.0,24.0,8.64,0.04
00:08.42,1672.0,27.0,8.64,0.74
00:08.88,1328.0,24.0,8.64,0.56
00:09.35,1460.0,19.0,8.64,0.82
00:09.82,1660.0,22.0,11.79,0.38
00:10.28,1876.0,26.0,11.79,0.36
00:10.76,2036.0,28.0,11.79,0.16
00:11.22,2148.0,29.0,11.79,0.68
00:11.68,2260.0,29.0,11.79,0.16
00:12.14,2372.0,30.0,11.79,0.56
00:12.63,2564.0,32.0,12.97,0.72
00:13.09,2900.0,29.0,21.61,0.72
00:13.55,3324.0,28.0,26.72,0.76
00:14.02,3848.0,26.0,27.5,0.24
00:14.47,4388.0,24.0,27.9,0.88
00:14.96,4252.0,28.0,2.36,0.96
00:15.42,2820.0,34.0,23.97,0.92 <- shift to 2nd
00:15.89,3208.0,16.0,98.23,0.94
00:16.35,3660.0,3.0,98.23,0.94
00:16.82,4112.0,4.0,98.23,0.94
00:17.29,4576.0,11.0,98.23,0.96
00:17.77,5024.0,11.0,98.23,0.96
00:18.22,5492.0,13.0,98.23,0.96
00:18.70,5924.0,17.0,98.23,0.96
00:19.46,6564.0,21.0,98.23,0.96
00:19.95,6484.0,22.0,98.23,0.98
00:20.40,4416.0,39.0,47.94,0.86 <- shift to 3rd
00:20.87,4776.0,8.0,98.23,0.96
00:21.35,4920.0,8.0,98.23,0.96
00:21.82,5112.0,10.0,98.23,0.96
00:22.29,5280.0,10.0,98.23,0.96

What is going on here?

Also, if my stock BOV holds 15-16 PSI and my 1G BOV holds roughly the same, was it the removal of the Brode UICP or the 1G BOV or a combination of the 2 that stopped my spiking. Remember I have no aftermarket boost controller.

Does anyone have a stock 2G that they could log? Or if you're in Tucson or Phoenix we could log it with my logger. I'm wondering if the car has always done this. I really don't want to put the stock exhaust back on for an experiment.

 

[DCJ98GST]

Originally posted by nine5raptor
maybe I am getting too much fuel in since lowering the boost results in identical logs to the higher boost levels. I have a rewired stocker and the stevetek upgrade from the filter forward. I tried the 14b at 7, 10, and 15 psi and never got above 11 deg advance.

1. Have you had your timing belt changed?
2. Are you runing the right spark plugs gapped to .03?
3. Did you check for boost leaks?
4. Are your lifters ticking?
5. What octane are you using?

It could be the dreaded phantom knock. Good luck diagnosing that.

 

[DCJ98GST]

Originally posted by jim97gst

Time,RPM,Timing,TPS,O2


00:15.42,2820.0,34.0,23.97,0.92 <- shift to 2nd
00:15.89,3208.0,16.0,98.23,0.94
00:16.35,3660.0,3.0,98.23,0.94
00:16.82,4112.0,4.0,98.23,0.94
00:17.29,4576.0,11.0,98.23,0.96
00:17.77,5024.0,11.0,98.23,0.96
00:18.22,5492.0,13.0,98.23,0.96
00:18.70,5924.0,17.0,98.23,0.96
00:19.46,6564.0,21.0,98.23,0.96
00:19.95,6484.0,22.0,98.23,0.98
00:20.40,4416.0,39.0,47.94,0.86 <- shift to 3rd
00:20.87,4776.0,8.0,98.23,0.96
00:21.35,4920.0,8.0,98.23,0.96
00:21.82,5112.0,10.0,98.23,0.96
00:22.29,5280.0,10.0,98.23,0.96

This doesn't look too bad. I bet if you ran out 3rd gear you would probably get about 18 - 20 deg of timing. It looks like you could richen it up at 3600 to 4200 rpm though and get a little better tip in timing.

 

[nine5raptor]

Originally posted by DCJ98GST


1. Have you had your timing belt changed?
2. Are you runing the right spark plugs gapped to .03?
3. Did you check for boost leaks?
4. Are your lifters ticking?
5. What octane are you using?

It could be the dreaded phantom knock. Good luck diagnosing that.

1. Not sure when it was last done, but when I bought the car the previous owner had kept it immaculate and had all work, including scheduled maintenance done at the dealer.

2. I currently have BP7ES gapped correctly (less than 500mi on them)

3. No boost leaks--tested to 30 psi

4. Lifters do tick, but as far as I can hear, only at idle or if the car is cold, then higher up in the rpm (I'm thinking this might be an issue, so I am going to clean them as soon as it gets above freezing)

5. I tried 92-100 and got the same results.

 

[nine5raptor]

Originally posted by DCJ98GST


This doesn't look too bad. I bet if you ran out 3rd gear you would probably get about 18 - 20 deg of timing. It looks like you could richen it up at 3600 to 4200 rpm though and get a little better tip in timing.

unfortunately for him, he still has the t25 (running out any gear really doesn't give you much) and no aftermarket way of adjusting fuel (due to the autocross class he races in).

 

[jim97gst]

I think my timing at the high end is fine. I get 22 deg at the top of second. I think 3rd gear would be fine to, but I didn't want to run it out because of the road I was on. It probably wasn't appropriate to do the kind of pull I did do. Anyway, it's my tip in timing that I'm worried about. I was told at the beggining of the post that tip in ignition retard shouldn't go lower than 10 deg.

Also, I CAN legally use fuel control for my autocross class (AFC or whatever), but was told it wouldn't help me much with the stock injectors. It's a boost controller that I can't use. But apparently boost isn't the issue because I stopped the spiking with the stock UICP and BOV.

By the way, to anyone joining the post late, there are 2 different problems being talked about here. Nine5raptor is having all around timing issues. I have bad tip in timing that I thought was due to my 19-20 psi spikes.

 

[nine5raptor]

sorry for hijacking your thread...

How about we just talk about tip-in from now on. My tip-in is 4-5 deg. with stock fuel control, with some ghetto mods to reduce fuel, I can get it as high as 25 with 02 voltage around .86 or so.

Jim- could you get some 100+ octane in the tank and check your tip-in? If it is low due to knock, that should show up as the timing staying high. If not, then you have too much fuel being dumped in initially and 'flooding' mix causing poor combustion or even combustion in the ex mani.

 

[DCJ98GST]

If you can get an SAFC I would try to richen it up at that rpm. I also have heard that if you slam the gas peddle it pulls more timing than if you ease into WOT. I just got the SAFC and leaned it out a little and my tip in timing went down to 5 to 7 deg. This is what it looked like before the SAFC:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28666

 

[jim97gst]

I can get 100. I'll get some this weekend and try it out. Damn Arizona. You can't get better than 91 other than race gas at a few stations. If I could get 93 all the time that may solve my problem. I guess I could mix in 100 with my 91 all the time, but that would be kind of a pain in the arse.

 

[jim97gst]

OK, I put some 100 octane in the car. I don't know what my final octane was, but I put about 2.5 gallons (I'm a cheap ass) into a pretty much empty tank. The get gas light had been on for a pretty long time. I did some pulls and my timing on the first one looked pretty much the same, although 3rd gear was better with only 11 deg at tip in. Here it is:

Time,RPM,Timing,TPS,O2 1 Bank 1,O2
01:23.83,2408.0,23.0,32.22,0.4
01:24.30,2956.0,24.0,33.01,0.84
01:24.76,3672.0,20.0,34.18,0.84
01:25.23,4392.0,18.0,34.18,0.92
01:25.70,5016.0,22.0,34.18,0.92
01:26.16,4176.0,35.0,1.96,0.82<-- shift to 2nd
01:26.63,3284.0,26.0,70.33,0.94
01:27.11,3668.0,11.0,98.23,0.96
01:27.58,4056.0,4.0,98.23,0.96
01:28.05,4516.0,11.0,98.23,0.98
01:28.51,4916.0,11.0,98.23,0.96
01:28.98,5324.0,13.0,98.23,0.96
01:29.43,5728.0,15.0,98.23,0.96
01:29.91,6104.0,19.0,98.23,0.98
01:30.37,6420.0,21.0,98.23,0.98
01:30.84,6724.0,22.0,98.23,0.98
01:31.30,7004.0,23.0,98.23,0.98
01:31.79,6676.0,24.0,87.23,0.92
01:32.25,4640.0,39.0,98.23,0.94<--shift to 3rd
01:32.70,4984.0,11.0,98.23,0.98
01:33.16,5120.0,11.0,98.23,0.98
01:33.63,5280.0,11.0,98.23,0.98
01:34.11,5436.0,14.0,98.23,0.98
01:34.58,5596.0,16.0,98.23,0.98

I did a few other not nearly as hard pulls, and my timing looked fine. Then I did a full out pull starting in second from a roll. My timing on that one went to -2 deg!!

09:37.79,928.0,10.0,1.96,0.42,
09:38.26,2428.0,15.0,20.43,0.86,
09:38.72,2892.0,2.0,20.83,0.8
09:39.19,3136.0,22.0,38.51,0.78
09:39.65,3472.0,8.0,98.23,0.94
09:40.41,4172.0,-2.0,98.23,0.94
09:40.90,4576.0,7.0,98.23,0.96
09:41.35,5004.0,7.0,98.23,0.94
09:41.82,5436.0,8.0,98.23,0.94
09:42.28,5832.0,12.0,98.23,0.94
09:42.76,6240.0,15.0,98.23,0.94
09:43.22,6584.0,16.0,98.23,0.94
09:43.70,6904.0,18.0,98.23,0.94
09:44.15,6252.0,21.0,1.18,0.74
09:44.64,4792.0,32.0,98.23,0.94
09:45.10,4992.0,12.0,98.23,0.94
09:45.58,5208.0,14.0,98.23,0.94

Is this one maybe a fluke? Maybe a rock hit the underside of the engine and it got picked up as knock?

My car is a 97 with ~55,000 miles on it. Overall it seems to run great and always feels like it pulls pretty hard (as hard as a T25 can pull).

 

[jim97gst]

Anybody have any ideas? Again, I'm now running 15-16 psi max by putting the stock UICP and BOV back on and still got pretty bad ignition retard. I ran higher octane and still got about the same retard, and actually much worse on one run. There's no way I can be running out of fuel with a T25 at 15-16 psi right?

I have some lifter tick, but I don't know how bad because I don't have another DSM to compare it to. It doesn't seem bad to me. I run Mitsubishi oil filters and Mobil 1 synthetic.

How do I know if I have to much fuel being dumped in at tip in and that is causing the problem? Could a SAFC solve that with no other fuel mods?