Carbon Fiber Intake Manifold?

[autronicDSM]

Originally posted by greyforestgst
why do nice manis cost SO DAMN MUCH?
four pipes, a box, two flanges...$500
what. the. ####?

im about to build my own, swear to freakin god

Ignorance is a bliss, let us know how it ends up!!!

 

[LaserRST]

True making anything outa carbon fiber isnt for the DIYers, but props to the man that can build CF. As far as the structure goes, any harsh road condition can bust a weld on a sheet metal intake or any fabbed weld job. The benefits of carbon fiber is that its also flexible. Another reason why they build half shafts out of it. Its not gonna bust a weld, its lighter and in the hands of a good craftsman possibilities are endless. I am sure Magnus and the likes that build aftermarket SM intakes do a fabulous job, infact I dont hear much about welds bustin. But, carbon fiber has far more advantages over aluminum. In some cases it may be overkill and unnecessary, but its pros outweigh its cons in almost any arena. Oh and how much HP "I" make is my business, thanks!

 

[entropy138]

Man there is some good info in this thread...

Where the f*** are people getting their numbers??? $2000 for a CF intake manny???
I've seen honda mani's like the one pictured above advertised for $500-750.... Hell there probably isn't any more material required than a CF hood - so any additional cost is in the labor. Hell I've even seen a trick one for a corvette that - if my memory is correct - wasn't much more than 1k... And vette owners get raped on prices due to the fact manufactures know they already have money.

No support structure?? There are exotics that use their main support structure out of carbon fiber -

whoever made the comment about wheels - they probably aren't that far down the road. There is even a company that is making break rotors and pads out of carbon fiber... If you want to talk about a part that sees high amounts of stress that would be it!!! Ever heard of carbon fiber drive shafts??

I've also seen a number of pro-class dragsters that use carbon fiber intake mani's ... some running more boost than we'll ever dream of
- I wouldn't even think twice about one being able to hold 25 or so psi ....

Hell i just signed up for the Vehicle Research Institute as a Washington University, on my tour two of the things I was shown were a radiator made of carbon fiber for a v8 that was the size of the 90 dsm oil cooler
and a 6 speed gearbox which the housing was made of carbon fiber.

Some of you need to open your minds to new ideas and not be so quick to call something rice... Remember at one time nobody thought a 4 banger could be quick ... now we have them in the sub 10's. Remember the ppl that thought Bill Gates was crazy? Its new ideas that drive our lifestyle forward. Don't be so quick to hate just because Civic owners liked it first. They might buy a lot of stoopid stuff ... but they also are guinea pigs testing things that 'might' just make a revolution in how we think about tuning.

 

[autronicDSM]

Originally posted by LaserRST
Its not gonna bust a weld, its lighter and in the hands of a good craftsman possibilities are endless.

Uhh, you don't weld CF and I was referring to these dreamers who think they could build intake at first try.

Originally posted by
entropy138
I've seen honda mani's like the one pictured above advertised for $500-750....

I think they're talking about a fact that for a shop to make these for sale they would probably need a mold which is big money. To make their money back initial cost of these would probably be high because most people would probably just get Magnus since it's proven. With Hondas it's a different story because market is so much bigger and most of them are ricers going for bling-bling.

I'm not knocking CF. I tried to make my own parts from CF to make my car lighter but to do everything by hand with out a mold takes long time. To make things worse you need vaccum bag it to make it strong and I don't want to spent my money on equipment. If you can find some1 who does CF it will be cheap. For DIY guy who is just starting cost will be higher.

 

[autronicDSM]

Originally posted by entropy138
Hell i just signed up for the Vehicle Research Institute as a Washington University, on my tour two of the things I was shown were a radiator made of carbon fiber for a v8 that was the size of the 90 dsm oil cooler
and a 6 speed gearbox which the housing was made of carbon fiber.

That's wierd, CF doesn't transfer heat well and that's why they're used for intake manifolds besides the fact they're light. How do you expect to cool a v8 with something size of DSM cooler? It's the surafce area that's important.

 

[Cirus_93TSI]

intake manifolds like the magnus cost so much because of the time and cost of developing them, if u throw a flange and a metal box on 4 pieces of pipe and weld everything together ur not going to make as much power as any of the aftermarket intake manifolds on the market, much less the magnus, just like everything that makes good power intake manifolds took alot of time to design and develop to suit the application of maxium airflow on a dsm
it would cost thousands just to make a mold to produce a carbon manifold for out cars, not to mention how much time and money it would take to design it to work good on our cars, and test it
getting a sheet of carbon fiber is cheap but turning that into an intake manifold is hardly cost effective, if they feel manifolds like the magnus and forester are worth 500 based on how much they cost to make and develope then u can immgine how much more expensive a carbon one would be, espicaly when first hitting the market, those carbon honda manifolds came out years ago, they might cost under a thousand now after thousands of then have been sold already and they have made back the money they took to develop but i can tell u that they were much more expensive when they first came out
and the only real advantage over a sheet metal intake is less heat transfer, carbon might be stronger and more flexable but how many people do u now that have blown the welds on a sheet metal intake on their street car, i know i dont know anyone who has, it just overkill and wasting of money

 

[2-0turbo]

Originally posted by entropy138
Man there is some good info in this thread...

There is even a company that is making break rotors and pads out of carbon fiber... If you want to talk about a part that sees high amounts of stress that would be it!!! Ever heard of carbon fiber drive shafts??

I agree with most of your comments. Your comment about brake rotors describe a totally different composite. They are carbon/carbon systems, with no resin as you might think. More ceramic than CF. No average Joe is going to be making these in their garage. Aircraft have used them for years due to their enormous heat capacity and light weight. Very pricey though. It will be YEARS before you see them on average cars--maybe never. It is just not cost effective. You can get them as an option on one of the new Porsche's. A new set of pads will set you back $6K. A new set of rotors is $25K. (These numbers quoted from memory from the magazine article I read. Might be off a bit, but order of magnitude is correct).

 

[talonted_one]

You guys do know that the carbon composite brakes are pretty close to useless until they are brought up to operating temp.

As far as the whole CF intake mani discussion, I agree to an earlier comment. We should find out what design works best before diving into the whole composite part fabrication. How I see it, it's usleless to make a beautiful CF ANYTHING and not be the best because of an inefficent design.

 

[LaserRST]

I think the radiators and clutches are a carbon composite material, different than carbon fiber, but same principles. Great heat dissipation, awesome under stress. Sure design and the complexity of MASS PRODUCTION is something that has driven the price of CF components, since most parts are hand laid. But I am positive this is something we will see much more of. Especially the wheels. Imagine hittin a curb with aluminum and bending it to the point of replacement. The way this technology is going, CF will flex and return to its original shape and at most buy a new tire... woo hoo. That means I can buy 18s for these houston roads. The way I see it, keep dreamin till you can make it happen. Keep dreams alive.

 

[13secGST]

Originally posted by talonted_one
You guys do know that the carbon composite brakes are pretty close to useless until they are brought up to operating temp.

I'm wondering...has anybody ever made water-cooled brakes?...similar to an engine...have a water jacket inside the rotor and send water into it...only problem would be if the pump was not strong enough to get the water away from the sides of the rotor due to centrifugal forces

 

[entropy138]

there is another problem w/ that idea - how are you gonna get water inside the rotor?? the water passage would almost have to run down the center of the axle to be able to deal w/ rotation plus up/down motion of suspention, plus the turning of steering...

Also - isn't it cetripital (sp?) force....

 

[awd4bangr]

Originally posted by autronicDSM


That's wierd, CF doesn't transfer heat well and that's why they're used for intake manifolds besides the fact they're light. How do you expect to cool a v8 with something size of DSM cooler? It's the surafce area that's important.

I wonder if it wasn't actually a graphite / carbon foam? Poco Foam is a graphite based material that allows greater cooling in a package 1/10th the size. It's something used for F1 radiators, jet fighters, and the OEM's have been putting a lot of development into it for radiators.

 

[13secGST]

Originally posted by entropy138
there is another problem w/ that idea - how are you gonna get water inside the rotor?? the water passage would almost have to run down the center of the axle to be able to deal w/ rotation plus up/down motion of suspention, plus the turning of steering...

Also - isn't it cetripital (sp?) force....

Yeh I was thinking about that too...well at least the lines. If it was only one, it would be easy...but to have two would...actually it wouldn't be that hard...have one on one side...the other line on the other side and have a big plate like thing inside the middle of the rotor which would force the water to flow through the rotor...as far as steering and stuff like that...that is easier to deal with...but this is way off topic...so I'm going to stop now...sorry for whoring the thread.

And centripital/ centrifigal/ centrifugal is not a force that is something we make up...the true force that pushes an object to the outside of a rotating mass is intertia...we just call it a force but it really isn't

Centri (center) fugal (fleeing) center fleeing force. At least this is what they told me when I took physics

 

[LaserRST]

The whole deal about cabon composite breaks is that it dissipates heat very well. I think who ever said that its useless till it heats up was probably thinking of kevlar brakes. Carbon brakes on carbon composite rotors will work under any condition hot or cold. reason why they are extreme high performance and very expensive. I found a really neat tid bit on carbon fiber too. Some one was iterating that its sooo expensive to build and develop. Well I found that if you want to make a carbon fiber hood it will cost you 500.00 for the mold and one hood. You can save the mold which costs 240.00 of the 500.00 to make more. This is all the materials you will need minus mold release and polish which will be about 50.00 but will last for quite a few builds. But think about it, build one hood, sell it and you will pay for the materials it took to build. After that its profit margin is huge!! about 50% not including labor. The technology behind building something like that intake has actuall been around before carbon fiber existed. They used it to build single piece race crafts out of fiberglass. Oh and materials to build that manifold? how bout less than 300.00 for the mold and one manifold. Tell me there aint plenty of profit in that. Sell one for 500.00 and to make more will be 160.00 in materials and plenty of room for labor to maintain a good over head. Man im in the wrong business. I got these prices from FibreGlast.com, a local professional and hobbiest fiberglass, kevlar, and carbon fiber retailer here in houston. The prices would be much lower in bulk from an industrial retailer. Awesome stuff!!

 

[autronicDSM]

I suggest you be the guinea pig and make us one sweet, cheap carbon fiber manifold!!! You'd be so filthy f uckin rich!!!