alignment Fail

[dadnkid]

Took the Eclipse to get an alignment at Firestone today. Had coupon for 50 dollars off and needed an alignment bad.
The back story on car is bought it knowing it needs a lot of work and the alignment was very bad. The rear of the car while driving is everywhere. I can hear a dragging noise coming from one of the tires on every bump as if im driving in a straight line but the tires are angeled.
I thought it was the front tires causing the problems because I had play in the wheels when I raised the car and shaked the wheels. I replaced the outer tire rods. Took over to Firestone for the Lifetime alignment. Explained the problem to the guys there. They was real cool and told me come back in a few. When I came back, was told it could'nt be done due to the RR. Firestone recommended I replaced the control arm and the spindel because they believe one or both are bent. If I have the number right, it was at 2.6. They looked at the subframe and didnt see any noticeable damage.
I did a search and notice that people have problems with the RR side. Can anyone point me in the right direction?
Car is not going to be raced or anything like that. I do have a rear bushing kit from Energy Suspenison coming in next week. Will that helps? Can I go to the junk yard and get one off of a car there?
I plan on swapping the parts myself then taking back to Firestone to see if that fixes the problem. I leave on a military base and Firestone is less then 200 yards from my house so its short drive.

 

[luv2rallye]

Usually the bushing sets are for the upper control arm. You have to determine (by raising the wheels and jerking all the ball joints and arm joints) where the problem is. The lower joints for both the control arm and toe arm usually require replacing the arm. You can do the whole thing yourself (even the alignment) if you're willing to do some work (extra work typically on a frozen toe arm bushing).

 

[IHeartMyHonda]

It is most likely that they were trying to tell you that you had a bent control arm or spindle. If your numbers were as high as 2*+, and your bushings are not siezed, then you probably have a bent suspension component. Also, numbers that high on rear toe can cause a condition known as diagonal wipe, which is a kind of tire wear that leaves flat spots all around the tire in a diagonal pattern, so try not to drive on that bad alignment for too long. Did they give you a print-out of the "before" alignment of your car? seeing that would probably help me point you in the right direction easier, since I look at, and interpret those every day.

 

[97gst_spyder]

Also, the rear end on Spyder's are a bi*** for some reason compared to a coupe. Does your car's rear end start shaking at 55mph almost every time? It is extremely important to make sure that the rear toe is at 0 when you do get it aligned. If they can't get it at 0, you need a rear camber kit/washer mod so they can get it to 0.

 

[IHeartMyHonda]

Also, the rear end on Spyder's are a bi*** for some reason compared to a coupe. Does your car's rear end start shaking at 55mph almost every time? It is extremely important to make sure that the rear toe is at 0 when you do get it aligned. If they can't get it at 0, you need a rear camber kit/washer mod so they can get it to 0.

I would have to respectfully disagree with this post. I have aligned and owned several of both Spyder's and coupes and I haven't seen any difference in the rear, nor have I ever noticed a shaking in the rear due to an alignment. Aside from having extreme toe angles in the rear, there is nothing alignment-related that could cause a shake.

As far as requesting exact 0 on the rear toe setting, I would only do that if 0 is the middle of the factory range of specs. Most of the time, FWD vehicles have a slight toe-in in the rear. The factory did it for a reason, so, unless you plan to track the car, there is no real need to deviate from the OE specs. Also, there is a possibility that a rear camber kit could make the toe issue worse, since camber angles directly affect toe, so don't go slapping a camber kit in there when you don't really need to.

 

[97gst_spyder]

If there is too much negative camber, you will run out of toe adjustment. The reason for negative toe from the factory is to help keep the rear end tighter when ripping the wheel side to side.

I do my own alignments 90% of the time. With my 2 last Spyder's I've had shimmy that comes on about 50mph to about 60-62mph with the toe being a factory spec with my Tokico setup. This happened on two separate Spyder's, both with factory bushings and Prothanes. Also, with three different wheel/tire combos. So it might be just the suspension setup I'm running but I have also noticed it on stock or mostly stock Spyder's out here.

As for me stating that there rear is 'different', I did not mean in a physical way. Just the way the cars react to alignment adjustments.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Couldn't help but to notice this correlation,

"I do my own alignments 90% of the time"
"With my 2 last Spyder's I've had shimmy that comes on about 50mph to about 60-62mph"

Have you seen this phenomenon documented elsewhere?

 

[97gst_spyder]

I know that sounds like its my crappy alignments. But I've had a few shops do them and also, a few friends also do them for me. Same issue.

 

[dadnkid]

It is most likely that they were trying to tell you that you had a bent control arm or spindle. If your numbers were as high as 2*+, and your bushings are not siezed, then you probably have a bent suspension component. Also, numbers that high on rear toe can cause a condition known as diagonal wipe, which is a kind of tire wear that leaves flat spots all around the tire in a diagonal pattern, so try not to drive on that bad alignment for too long. Did they give you a print-out of the "before" alignment of your car? seeing that would probably help me point you in the right direction easier, since I look at, and interpret those every day.

I think your dead on with the diagonal wipe. My tires look just like you described. I didn't get a whole alignment done because they stop after they could'nt get the RR to adjust. This way they didn't have to charge me. But I went ahead and paid for the lifetime agilnment anyway because I had the 50 dollars off.

The plan for right now is , this weekend, Ecology junk yard is having a 50% off. I'm going to pick up a control arm and spindle, if I can find one that looks good. Then install the Energy bushing kit. Then back to Firestone for the agilnment. And this time, I will have them complete the whole thing so I have the numbers and post for more help. Thanks for all the response.

Also doing a search on the seized trailing arm. Don't really understand it.

 

[luv2rallye]

It's a siezed rear toe control arm bushing where it attaches to chassis (usually you must get the whole arm which has the bushings in it). See: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/art...3-replacing-seized-rear-toe-control-arms.html

 

[IHeartMyHonda]

I think your dead on with the diagonal wipe. My tires look just like you described. I didn't get a whole alignment done because they stop after they could'nt get the RR to adjust. This way they didn't have to charge me. But I went ahead and paid for the lifetime agilnment anyway because I had the 50 dollars off.

The plan for right now is , this weekend, Ecology junk yard is having a 50% off. I'm going to pick up a control arm and spindle, if I can find one that looks good. Then install the Energy bushing kit. Then back to Firestone for the agilnment. And this time, I will have them complete the whole thing so I have the numbers and post for more help. Thanks for all the response.

Also doing a search on the seized trailing arm. Don't really understand it.

Glad I could help. If you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask. I do alignments all day, every day, so I can usually lend some advice to any situation. Feel free to give some positive rep as well.

If there is too much negative camber, you will run out of toe adjustment. The reason for negative toe from the factory is to help keep the rear end tighter when ripping the wheel side to side.

I do my own alignments 90% of the time. With my 2 last Spyder's I've had shimmy that comes on about 50mph to about 60-62mph with the toe being a factory spec with my Tokico setup. This happened on two separate Spyder's, both with factory bushings and Prothanes. Also, with three different wheel/tire combos. So it might be just the suspension setup I'm running but I have also noticed it on stock or mostly stock Spyder's out here.

As for me stating that there rear is 'different', I did not mean in a physical way. Just the way the cars react to alignment adjustments.

Too much negative camber can limit toe adjustments, true. But, in this case, the OP said nothing about an out of spec rear camber measurement, nor does his profile list that his suspension has been modified in any way. Based on this, I assumed that the camber was not a problem, and that he was only concerned about toe. I have never had any problem at all when using the factory rear alignment specs, and to be honest, the difference between the OE 0.12* individual toe in the rear and a straght up 0* will be indecernable to any driver on the road unless you live and breathe road racing.

 

[1983gsp]

My understanding was that rear toe increases or decreases high speed stability. Rear toe in increases stability to a point and rear toe out decreases stability. Am I right in my findings?

 

[dadnkid]

Glad I could help. If you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask. I do alignments all day, every day, so I can usually lend some advice to any situation. Feel free to give some positive rep as well.



Too much negative camber can limit toe adjustments, true. But, in this case, the OP said nothing about an out of spec rear camber measurement, nor does his profile list that his suspension has been modified in any way. Based on this, I assumed that the camber was not a problem, and that he was only concerned about toe. I have never had any problem at all when using the factory rear alignment specs, and to be honest, the difference between the OE 0.12* individual toe in the rear and a straght up 0* will be indecernable to any driver on the road unless you live and breathe road racing.

My car is fully stock. i had it for a couple of months now and money is available for me to start doing things to get it up and running. I just found someone selling some gst 17" rims/tires for $140. If the person doesnt back out, I'm picking those up today. My rims are the factory 16" chrome rims but the chrome is peeling and crorroded and tires are shot due to the alignment problem. I wanted some simple 17" rims anyway so perfect timing.

 

[dadnkid]

It's offical. I'm really disliking my spyder right now. I need to do a carfax and see where this car has been all it's like. Rust everywhere. The arm was seized, bought a saw for that. Went thru 4 blades but only had to do one cut. Now, I'm working on the other side, at the knuckle. Its just as stuck too. I can only fit a wrench on the nut side because it's on the side between the trailing arm. I tired spray lube, electric impact gun, breaker bar. I got it to spin with the breaker bar but then the bolt stripped. Im tired now. Back at it tomorrow. Maybe I'll try a angle grinder....I dont know..

 

[jtmcinder]

I feel your pain. My rear toe-arms were like that. Worst job I ever did. Breathe deeply, preferable after hitting them with PB'laster, which can give a nice, calming buzz.

Your desire to keep brain-cells may vary.

 

[dadnkid]

Okay, it's been a couple of weeks and finally got all the bushing removed from the trailing arms, knuckles, and upper control arms. It would have been a whole lot easier if I pulled everything off the car but I was trying to remove little as possible. Word of advise... REMOVE all parts from car. But tomorrow, I'll start pressing the bushing in if I have the time. Im using a bolt, nut, and washer to install. If I can find someone with a vise, I'll use that but right now, all I have is a the bolt, nut, washer, and ratchet. Reason its taking me so long is 11 hour work days, 4 young kids, college homework and a wife.

 

[honda_burner]

Damn! Good luck and props to you for even still having the ambition to do all this!

 

[jtmcinder]

... and a wife.

Solution: "Hi, honey, I got you a 10-ton bench-press as an early Xmas present! Oh, no. It's the least that I could do for the mother of my children. Plus, I got it from Harbor Frieght which means that some political prisoner in Guanzhou province keeps his job and gets to eat this month. But, hey, if all of this is making you feel warm and fuzzy, can I ask a favor? Can I borrow it for a while?"