Pivot Ball over shimmed

[Raymos24]

I am having an issue with my clutch fork being too far over to the driver's side. I did the clutch about 1.5 years ago and it was never really ran WOT because of lack of tuning. Finally, I was able to do some WOT tuning and my clutch is slipping at full boost. I do not remember if we added any washers to the pivot ball but it sure does look like I did. What are the consequences of running the car with a clutch like this? The car has no engagement issues and goes into every gear fine. Here are some pictures of my situation:

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The second picture is with the clutch pedal depressed. So can this be causing my slipping clutch? I have adjusted the clutch from under the dash and no matter how far up or down I engage the slave reacts the same way. Is there a way to fix this issue without dropping the transmission?

 

[BrokenTsi]

I would say that you could overextend the fingers on the pressure plate.

When you shim a pivot ball, you need to install the transmission, look at the fork position, then remove the transmission if you need to make an adjustment.

 

[Raymos24]

Yea I have been reading up on that and realized this. I did the clutch a little while ago, and it was my first venture into a transmission. Could this cause me to slip? Is there a way I could "fix this" without dropping the tranny?

 

[BrokenTsi]

What kind of clutch is it? How many miles? and when does it slip?

 

[Raymos24]

It is a Fidanza 4.3 clutch kit with a Fidanza flywheel. They were brand new along with the fork and pivot ball being new. The clutch itself has about 10-15k miles most likely. The car with this clutch has seen only like 15 WOT pulls because it was never ready to be tuned the past year until now. The clutch slips if you go 100% WOT once it hits full boost. However, at about 3/4 throttle I have hit 15psi with no slipping.

 

[BrokenTsi]

sounds like you need to pull the transmission out to inspect the clutch.

 

[Raymos24]

Yea I might have to. I am not looking forward to pulling my transmission in my driveway haha.

 

[97gst_spyder]

I did this to mine too. Added to many washers. I ended up just making a clutch petal stopper (I forgot the correct name).

But yours is extreme to the drivers side compared to what its suppose to be.

 

[Raymos24]

How did the clutch pedal stopper help the situation? Can you elaborate please? Also, it doesn't seem like my clutch is dragging. I put it in gear and with the clutch depressed hit 7k and the car did not move.

 

[BrokenTsi]

Well, it obviously doesn't take an entire push of the clutch pedal to disengage your clutch judging by the position of the fork. A pedal stop will keep it from over extending the TOB into the pressure plate.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

I, too, over-shimmed. By one washer. I installed brand new gear and because I'm a dumbass I put in a single washer behind the pivot for shit's and giggles. I mean it can only help, right? Cheap insurance, right? A 2500lbs. PP is almost a 2600lbs. PP, right? I've heard of people using several washers, right?

This immediately led to contact with the pp fingers on first start up. The clutch had to be adjusted so extremely in order to provide enough travel/slop at the top and not have un-wanted contact inside the bellhousing.

It still wasn't enough. When I got home I had to add damn-near an inch of washers onto each slave bolt to space the slave back from the fork. With this I was at last able to adjust my master to an almost reasonable level, while maintaining the ability to push in the slave, not apply pressure to the fork when at rest, ample free play at the top and enough disengagement at the bottom without making un-wanted contact.

It sounds like you've not got enough free-play at the top. Try shimming your slave out a good bit, totally readjusting the master and see if that does anything for you. Otherwise you know what must be done.

Bottom line? Don't #### with shimming the pivot ball.

 

[Raymos24]

Oh ok good point. Any pointers on making one of these? I think that definitely makes sense because when I had my clutch adjusted for engagement to be really low, it actually held WOT pulls. The moment I started raising the engagement point is when it started slipping worst.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Oh ok good point. Any pointers on making one of these? I think that definitely makes sense because when I had my clutch adjusted for engagement to be really low, it actually held WOT pulls. The moment I started raising the engagement point is when it started slipping worst.

Tips for making what? Washers? I just buy mine. ACE hardware is close to me.

EDIT: You meant a pedal stop. That's silly, no offense. I realize that I may be biased because I happen to like the outcome of shimming the slave, but I do genuinely believe that a pedal stop is not the right way to do this. Your clutch fork is so jacked that shimming, nor stopping the pedal travel mechanically will solve this for you. If you wish to build a pedal stop in lieu of adjusting the throw of your hydraulics, then by all means do so. On the other hand I think Ace may even be having a washer sale.. I never seem to spend more than $2.50 on a box of washers.

Either way, you are likely to only alleviate some of the symptoms, if even that. You know the root problem.

 

[Raymos24]

It seems like your suggestion is better and easier. Do you know the size of the washers you used? Definitely backing out the slave would help alot.

Edit: You mentioned an inch of washers. I missed that thanks!

Before you did the washers, was your clutch slipping at all?

 

[PieEyedPiper]

It seems like your suggestion is better and easier. Do you know the size of the washers you used? Definitely backing out the slave would help alot.

Edit: You mentioned an inch of washers. I missed that thanks!

Before you did the washers, was your clutch slipping at all?

No, but the install was only 4 hours old on a new flywheel/pp/disc. With the limited freeplay at the top - I'm sure it would have been.
The number of washers you use should be just enough so that the slave doesn't put any significant pressure on the release fork at rest, then adjust the master to suit your style. Assuming you can correct for this particular situation.

So here's a difference between my situation and yours. And Artago's, actually. My clutch was very clearly out of whack on first start up. The noise it made grinding the springs along the pp fingers is permenantly engrained in my head. Being acutely aware of the situation we adjusted the pedal the best we could and sent me on my way (it was getting dark and the favor was done). Artago was unaware of his issue until failure but when he looked at it it was clear he was making contact with his springs, just not to the same extent that I was and it went unnoticed. You obviously are even more polar, or at least is sounds that way if you're slipping, meaning that you likely have so little freeplay that your clutch isn't even fully engaging. And if you did, you might end up with disengagement problems due to the shimming of the pivot ball.

You take it from here. Let us know what you come up with.

EDIT: I used washers that were roughly the same size as the mounting ears. This part is not going to be very crucial but of course fender washers probably aren't going to work.

 

[Raymos24]

Thanks so much! I will most likely try to do this either tomorrow or Thursday. I will keep you guys posted.

 

[Raymos24]

Well I went to take the slave out today (right before the ridiculous amounts of rain) and I realized the front cross member is completely blocking me from getting to one of the bolts. Is this normal that the cross member sit so high up/ the tranny sit so low. It seems like the transmission is completely resting on the cross member. Is this normal or should I check something else out? It doesn't seem normal that I have to remove the cross member just to get to the slave cylinder.

 

[BrokenTsi]

I've never seen anyone have any trouble trying to remove a slave cylinder. So I'm not sure what you're talking about. I've done it myself in several DSM's...its pretty straight forward.

 

[Raymos24]

Let me explain a little bit better. The bottom bolt is nearly impossible to get to without removing the front cross member. I was wondering if this is normal. It seems like the transmission is completely resting on the member. Is it normal to be sagging that much?

 

[Raymos24]

UPDATE:

I finally was able to get under there and add some washers to the slave. I ended up adding about 3 washers to each bolt and the slave definitely seemed better positioned. I took the car out for a drive and at WOT the conditions have changed. Before the added washers the rpms would simply shoot up as if the clutch pedal was pushed in. Now that the washers are added, I get a strong vibration when hitting full boost. I think we are going in the right direction but it seems like we are still not quite there.

I also think I might have found another issue. When I was trying to put the slave cylinder back in position I realized that the slave rod does not "depress" unless I open the bleeder valve. It seems like the piston is stuck unless the bleeder valve is opened up. Is this normal? I legit had to open the bleeder valve to be able to place the slave rod back on the rod and then re-tighten the bleeder valve. Is this normal? I was under the impression that the slave should move in and out without having to open the bleeder valve.

I forgot to mention that about a month ago when I was adjusting the clutch rod under the dash there was some dark fluid coming out of it. I haven't noticed any liquid since however.

 

[laserspeeddemon]

That is a backwards way to fix your problem. The reason your piston won't depress is because you putting too much pressure into hydraulic system. Whats going to end up happening is that your master and slave cylinders will need to be replaced.... they probably already do.

 

[BrokenTsi]

This is why you can't depress your slave cylinder.

Proper Clutch Adjustment - YouTube

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

Watch this video:

Proper Clutch Adjustment - YouTube

Adjust your clutch properly.

For those reading this thread, the moral of the story is: don't shim your pivot ball unless you need to, and you should not need to with a new pivot ball.

See more about shimming your pivot ball at the bottom of this page: RRE's Clutch And Flywheel Tech Info. As I mentioned, you shouldn't need to shim a new OEM pivot ball. The Mitsubishi pivot ball is part number MD719602 and is the same for 1g's and 2g's and is available at JNZtuning for $8.57 or in a combo with a new clutch fork for $62.99. The FSM also recommends a small about of grease in all the contact points of the clutch fork (TOB, pivot ball, and slave rod).

For the OP, I would recommend pulling the trans and correcting your problem instead of piling up the bandaids trying to "fix" it.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

That is a backwards way to fix your problem. The reason your piston won't depress is because you putting too much pressure into hydraulic system. Whats going to end up happening is that your master and slave cylinders will need to be replaced.... they probably already do.

Too much pressure is what's doing this? I'd call it improper function of the master. The relief hole never get's uncovered when the clutch is adjusted incorrectly making it so the slave cannot be depressed. I guess you could call that too much pressure.. more like just no place for the fluid to go until we uncover that hole in the master assembly. Once the hole is uncovered, fluid can now flow as intended, allowing the piston to depress and thusly alleviating a slipping clutch that was caused by 2g pedal pump up.
I'm with the other guys, it's because the clutch isn't adjusted as per jack's video.

It's not secret though that this is a giant bandaid. A bandaid that has literally solved my issue - we'll see if this extreme example can turn out similar.

This can can not be overemphasized:

Watch this video:


Adjust your clutch properly.

For those reading this thread, the moral of the story is: don't shim your pivot ball unless you need to, and you should not need to with a new pivot ball.

See more about shimming your pivot ball at the bottom of this page: RRE's Clutch And Flywheel Tech Info. As I mentioned, you shouldn't need to shim a new OEM pivot ball. The Mitsubishi pivot ball is part number MD719602 and is the same for 1g's and 2g's and is available at JNZtuning for $8.57 or in a combo with a new clutch fork for $62.99. The FSM also recommends a small about of grease in all the contact points of the clutch fork (TOB, pivot ball, and slave rod).

For the OP, I would recommend pulling the trans and correcting your problem instead of piling up the bandaids trying to "fix" it.

OP: Any more updates?
Also, you might try your luck with more than 3 washers. You should be shimming the slave out far enough so that the slave rod has a hair's-width between itself and the release fork. From what I've seen so far - this should take more than 3 washers. Of course you'll then need to re-adjust your pedal using the video above.

If that doesn't make it alllll gravy then that transmission is coming out.

 

[Raymos24]

I am going to re adjust the master cylinder rod tomorrow. We got some pretty bad rain out here. Yes, I agree, the pivot ball should have never been shimmed but that was 2 years ago and I did not know better to tell the mechanic not to. I am going to have to redo the slave cylinder washers because I added enough washers but this was before the slave was actually depressing/ "going in". I will update as soon as I get under the car. The only reason that I am not dropping the tranny is because this clutch probably has 10k miles on it and its starting to get cold out here for me to drop a tranny in my driveway haha.