My rebuild is done... Now electrical problems

[bpestilence]

I know ignition problems have been covered in detail, and I have read all the threads I could find about the problem. But I need a little more info.

My car ran fine before I rebuilt the car. I did not change anything external, only upgraded the internals and cleaned everything up. Now that I am finally ready to take the car off of the jackstands, I tried to fire it up and it was hard to start, finally running poorly and only on cylinders 1 and 4.

So what I have checked. The coilpack checks out, the transistor checks out and switches properly when stimulated by a 1.5v battery. Double checking has shown that cylinders 2 and 3 are in fact not getting spark.

From what I have read, the lost likely problem would be the crank angle sensor or the cam angle sensor. This is a 2g car. But, from the other threads I have read, a bad CAS would either cause no cylinders at all to fire, or either a pair 1 and 2 or 3 and 4 not to fire. On my car 2 and 3 are not firing. This leads me back to the transistor which still checks out.

To be safe I pulled the CAS sensor back out and double-checked the harness. Not crimped or anything. The only thing I found was this wire:

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in the center of the picture, which I don't remember where it goes. Looks like it goes on a single blade connector but I can't seem to find where it goes. I think it also possible that I might have connected the wrong triangle connectors, since there are three over here that are identical. But I don't think any cylinders would fire at all if the CAS or coil connectors were on wrong?

I haven't messed with the cam angle sensor, since the threads seem to say that the cam angle sensor isn't important for the timing of 2g cars. There was one thread, though, that claimed that the crank sensor times two of the cylinders, and the cam sensor times the other two. It was that one thread though.

So my questions: Is what is said in the paragraph above true? If so, which sensor matters for cylinders 2 and 3? Is it possible to somehow put the crank sensor in wrong that might cause this? Is there a convenient way to test the crank sensor? Is it possible that the transistor is bad even though it tested out?

 

[spitefire1]

yes! it could of went bad, but i would check you cas sensor! if deffintly has something to do with ignition unless you arent getting fuel to thses cylinders!good luck

 

[bpestilence]

I remembered what that wire was for. The 2g condensor. The 1g is attached to the coilpack, and I am using the 1g, so I don't think I need it.

I am going to take my accessories off again to reinspect the CAS. Wish me luck.

[edit]

Okay, I took the harmonic damper off and inspected the CAS again. I didn't take a picture, but I found this one that looks exactly like mine:

My trigger plate is in this exact position with the engine at TDC. The raised portion of the trigger plate is, like it shows here, pointed outwards. From what I remember it wouldn't even fit the other way. The CAS appears to be good, and it worked before I pulled the engine apart. Is there any way to test it?

 

[bpestilence]

Okay, I replaced the crank angle sensor. The car is still firing on two cylinders.

But, I had a friend help me check the spark again. I HAVE SPARK at all 4 cylinders. I also have fuel at all 4 cylinders.... That leads me to believe that the TIMING is what is wrong. But how could that get messed up? The firing order is self-explanatory, and there is no way to adjust the timing....

What am I missing? Could I have the cam sensor trigger wheel in wrong? Will that mess up the timing? Any other ideas? I am pulling my hair out here.

 

[rbwtrans]

Swap the two wires on the coil and see if that makes any difference. If not, then do a compression test and check your plugs while you have them out.

 

[Afroclipse]

I was having all sorts of issues until I installed a 1g cas via RRE instructions, I have yet to have a no start issue plus I can change my timing. Look in to it seriously and you will never have to check silly crank sensor hidden begind timing covers again.

P.S an Imbecile can make the harness and do this swap.

 

[bpestilence]

Compression is good. Engine has 0 miles on it. Spark plugs are wet with fuel and fire when out of the car. I double-checked the cam sensor and it is in there correctly. Still firing poorly.

I am going to try swapping the injectors. I am getting fuel but maybe not enough.

 

[rbwtrans]

When I suggested swapping the wires, what I meant was that possibly you have #3 where #2 is supposed to be and #3 where #2 is supposed to be. Have you tried this?

 

[bpestilence]

No, the wires are on correctly. Quadruple-checked that. The proper position for the wires was verified using the lable on the coilpacks as well as the Chilton manual.

 

[ilco187]

if they all spark and you have fuel but runs poorly i would vote a bad ground to the ignition module or coil pack.

when it does run does the CEL come on.

 

[bpestilence]

I will check that. The coilpack is grounded to the manifold via the bracket, but the transistor is only connected by one bolt.

I discovered that I had the cam sensor trigger wheel in backwards... I fixed that, but I just had an idea. Maybe the wheel being backwards gave the ECU bad startup data. I pulled the negative wire and am going to let the ECU reset, then try again.

 

[1SickAuto]

my friends car did the same exact thing after he go it back from the automotive place that was working on it. some where down the line they messed with the coil wires and had them in the wrong position after they changed the ecu cause they said it was bad as well. the car ran crappy and was firing on 2 cylinders and then the proceded to tell him the timing jumped and he was fed up so he had it towed home where it sat for 2 years. well i changed timing belt recently and it was only a half tooth off and after it got it back on and fired it up it was still running on 2 cylinders so timing wasnt causing the odd firing. i nevered checked anything before i changed timing belt and i found out the coil wires were all in the wrong positions. people make honest mistakes and keep in mind this was a ASE certified automotive business who did this. im not saying this it the problem. i am just tellin u what ive learned from my experience working on cars.

 

[rbwtrans]

Basically Isickauto is saying the same thing I am. I understand that you have read the manual and the label on the coil packs. All I'm asking is if you have tried to swap them. If you have fuel, fire, and compression, then it should run. If it doesn't run, then something's missing. Have you just tried this? It will not hurt anything if I'm wrong. I've just seen this kind of thing alot. Also, have you actually done a compression test? Or are you just assuming that it is good because the engine is "new" (I'm assuming you mean rebuilt).

 

[500orbust]

Try swapping spark plug wire locations...I know the manual says you are correct, but just try it. Cylinders 1&4, 2&3 are always together.

 

[rbwtrans]

Reading back through your post, I see that you say you are not getting spark to 2 & 3, but you also are saying that you do have spark. You are also saying that the plugs fire when out of the car. Is the spark weak for 2 & 3? Is it possible that the coil has gone bad? Maybe you can check the connections at the back of the coil. They are just eye loop type connectors with nuts and washers. Corrosion can be a bi***.

 

[bpestilence]

Well, I tried swapping the wires. Backfired. Definately not right. Put it back to stock and it ran on 3 cylinders.

I am double-checking all the wires for good grounds, and I am going to recheck the injectors to make sure they are working good, too. If all else fails, I have a spare ECU to swap in.

 

[stevo911]

A bad ecu will mess up plugs 2-3 im willing to bet when you swap youll have no problem.

 

[bpestilence]

Well, you lost the bet. What do I win?

I know that I am close! It is firing on 1, 3, and 4. Doesn't want to keep running, though. I am going to swap out the injectors next. Besides that... I dunno. I smell fuel when I try to start it... Which would make me think that #2 isn't firing, but there is spark when I test it.

There is no CEL... However I cannot say for sure that the CEL even works. The bulb might be removed or burnt out. So I am at a loss there.

 

[rbwtrans]

Try putting a fresh set of plugs in this thing. It sounds like your plugs are just gas fouled, if one of them all of a sudden started hitting.

 

[1SickAuto]

or u have them gapped wrong, carbon can be built up from not get suffecient spark and causing it to not fire. i just talked to a guy who had that problem, so it does happen

 

[bpestilence]

Sounds good. I will pop in some new plugs tomorrow. Unfortunately I was on duty last night and couldn't get any work done.

You know, it also sounds pretty plausible, considering that I had that cam sensor plate in backwards. The cylinders that didn't fire were in fact probably getting pretty fouled as I tried to start it.

Crossing my fingers that it is something this simple.

 

[bpestilence]

Put new plugs in. Didn't fix the problem.....

If I had more time I would swap out the injectors... But it is late and I had just enough time to get that done.

So to recap....

1) I had the cam sensor pickup in backwards.
2) Replaced the crank sensor.
3) Checked that the coilpacks and transistors were good
4) Discovered the problem with the cam sensor.
5) Swapped ECUs.
6) Swapped Spark plugs
7) ?

 

[shredwin]

I was reading your bolt on mods and it says you have a 1G intake manifold... Do you have a 1G head also?

 

[bpestilence]

No. 2g head ported to 1g intake specs.

 

[shredwin]

alright just making sure... im thinking it could be ignition timing, but i think thats only in 1Gs, im not 100% sure