monday the day of mods

[force inducted]

ok guys im so friggin excited tomorrow is the big day for me so far in the build up of this car ....tomorrow i pick up my apexi afc my upper an lower intercooler pipes my intake pipe an my intercooler inlets an outlets an a evo o2 sensor housing ........last week i put on a 3 incj exhaust from the engine to the muffler an i threw a stainless muffler on the end ....it sounds great an made a noticeable power difference ...


ok now i have a few questions


1. what kind of hp gains should i excpect to see from the mods mentioned above

2. where would you go next keeping in mind i have 0 suspension mods an crap rims/tires.....

i think im done adding power till i get a better suspension/braking setup

o btw keep in mind this car will be my everyday driver an i want as long of a life out of my motor as possible ..so take that into consideration when suggesting mods
any helpful opinions would be appreciated

 

[dsmturboawd]

your piping will give you slim to none. your intake pipe will give you maybe 1hp.

as far as the other stuff goes, i dont know.

 

[Phil Sochor]

if you want to break in to 12's look at my mods, my car is an everyday driver

 

[force inducted]

im not lookin for 12s im lookin for no 1 reliability ....i dont want to cause my car to break any more frequently then it already does an no.2 power of course i want to make some extra power but not at the sacrifice of every day drive ability an reliability ......well that was a longwinded way to say id be happy with 13.5 ish

 

[mwatkins]

Get some new stickier tires and get rid of the crappy ones - they'll really help and it doesn't hurt the reliability.

 

[force inducted]

ya im picking up some 17 inch beginning of next week an they come with toyo proxes 4 so im already on that bro

 

[boostnbuds]

Its tuesday....how did the buildup go bro??

 

[dsmturboawd]

bulid up, .

 

[force inducted]

well it didnt go that great cuz i got screwed by the store...i posted about it bbut it got closed cuz ur not supposed to say bad things about stores on here it seems .....i managed to track down all the parts except the intake pipe an the intercooler inlet an outlets......so i got the uic an lic pipe the evo 02 housing an the s-afc .....i have never messed with a s-afc so im looking for a shop to install / teach me to tune it the first time cuz id hate to blow my engine up


o an btw dsmturboawd u dont have to laugh at my build up im doing what i can afford an know how so if u dont have something useful to say by all means dont say anything.

this is the first car i have ever tried to build up so im not doing anything major ...i dont want to break it .....maybe someday i can be as cool as you ..peh

 

[Keaka26]

Originally posted by dsmturboawd
your piping will give you slim to none. your intake pipe will give you maybe 1hp.

as far as the other stuff goes, i dont know.

How can you say intercooler piping gives you slim to none and then say an intake pipe would give 1hp? If anything, the intercooler piping would give MUCH better gains than the intake pipe.

Why? Ever heard of pressure drop? Guess not. Getting better intercooler piping reduces pressure drop. What does this mean? Means the turbo doesnt need to work as hard to achieve the same boost levels. I GUARANTEE you will see gains from upgraded piping. Otherwise people would be mouting their front mount intercoolers with freaking radiator hoses for pipes.

Why dont you think before you shoot your mouth off and spread misinformation.

 

[dsmturboawd]

Originally posted by force inducted
o an btw dsmturboawd u dont have to laugh at my build up im doing what i can afford an know how so if u dont have something useful to say by all means dont say anything.

i only chuckled because i hardly consider a change of piping a "build up". that is all.

Originally posted by Keaka26
How can you say intercooler piping gives you slim to none and then say an intake pipe would give 1hp? If anything, the intercooler piping would give MUCH better gains than the intake pipe.

Why? Ever heard of pressure drop? Guess not. Getting better intercooler piping reduces pressure drop. What does this mean? Means the turbo doesnt need to work as hard to achieve the same boost levels. I GUARANTEE you will see gains from upgraded piping. Otherwise people would be mouting their front mount intercoolers with freaking radiator hoses for pipes.

Why dont you think before you shoot your mouth off and spread misinformation.

yes, i have heard of pressure drop. i bet you anything that his "better" pipes are bigger than stock. bigger=more volume to fill. guess what happens when you have more volume to fill......oh yes, pressure drop.

have you ever seen dyno #'s on intake pipes? i have. those things have been proven to do a whole lot of nothing.

i (along with many others) have used radiator hose for intercooler piping with no problems what so ever.

perhaps you should think before you shoot your mouth off and spread misinformation.

 

[gsx91boy]

Originally posted by Keaka26
How can you say intercooler piping gives you slim to none and then say an intake pipe would give 1hp? If anything, the intercooler piping would give MUCH better gains than the intake pipe.

Why? Ever heard of pressure drop? Guess not. Getting better intercooler piping reduces pressure drop. What does this mean? Means the turbo doesnt need to work as hard to achieve the same boost levels. I GUARANTEE you will see gains from upgraded piping. Otherwise people would be mouting their front mount intercoolers with freaking radiator hoses for pipes.

Most pressure drop is seen across the core, regardless of pipe size. Furthermore, pushing the turbo 1-2 psi less will hardly move the turbo into a drastically different efficiency island, if at all on a 14b. If you play with the turbo calculators a little more efficiency won't make anywhere near HUGE gains, especially on a 14b set up.

Consider that turbos that push twice the cfm of a 14b stil typically don't run bigger then 2.5" ic piping. I myself noticed no gain with a 2.5" in/out smic and piping, and also noted other people that have not noticed any significant gain with a UIP. It's really a worthless mod IMO on a stock smic as it won't change the fact that a SMIC is pretty iffy in it's cooling ability.

Also, from what I know, when Phil Beers added a s-afc and upgrade smic piping he gained no trap speed.

-aaron

 

[force inducted]

well good thing for me i mainly wanted the ic pipes for looks cuz they are polished an look bad ass ......also they are a little bigger than stock but not huge i dunno i noticed a little diff in performance but not alot .....

could be just wishful thinking .......
i dunno some people told me it was a good place to start since i already have a complete 3 inch exhaust

im just havin fun here with my new dsm even stock its one of the faster cars ive ever had .....well except my 85 anniversary edition 300z turbo thats was quick to ...im not tryin to take it to serious ....its a hobby an i want it to be fun i have enuff stress

 

[Keaka26]

I never said his gains would be huge, I said that he would get gains.

And Yes, I HAVE seen gains on DYNOS when changing the UICP.

bigger=more volume to fill. guess what happens when you have more volume to fill......oh yes, pressure drop.

This is not really true. So by your logic, getting upgraded intercooler piping causes more pressure drop? Hahaha...Funny. If that was all there was to it, then the stock intercooler would be AWESOME. Stock intercooler has very little volume, but suffers from a lot of pressure drop. Why? One reason is because OF THE SMALL INLETS/OUTLETS. Guess what, if you modify a stock IC and put bigger openings on it, you will have a LOT less pressure drop...Wow, thats amazing... What are you doing by making bigger pipes on an IC? INCREASING volume. SO it would seem to me like more volume does NOT = pressure drop like you said. Actually, that would mean that you were ass backwards in your statement about volume causing pressure drop.

As for the whole thing about better efficiency not making huge gains, well, I still never even said the word huge in my post... But, if THAT was true, then people wouldnt even be using intercoolers at all. They'd just have straight piping (or radiator hose if I was Mr. DSMturboAWD).

C'mon guys, this stuff is pretty basic, no?

 

[gsx91boy]

Originally posted by Keaka26
And Yes, I HAVE seen gains on DYNOS when changing the UICP.

Show me or shut up.

TURBO or IMPORT TUNER does not count.

Jay Haas and Fathouse have ran 12.5's on stock smic piping.

AFAIK Beers put on a s-afc and smic piping and dropped in e.t. but gained nothing in trap (power).

As for the whole thing about better efficiency not making huge gains, well, I still never even said the word huge in my post... But, if THAT was true, then people wouldnt even be using intercoolers at all. They'd just have straight piping (or radiator hose if I was Mr. DSMturboAWD).

Dejon tool reports a 1-2 psi decrease in pressure drop with larger pipes and in/outs, and they are the ones who sell the stuff so who knows unless you test yourself. It stil stands to remain that the smic is small and will stil maintain a ~2psi pressure drop across the core regardless of the in/outs on the endtanks, which is quite a bit more then a FMIC would see.

Take a look at a 14b map and calculate the VE for a ~300hp car and you'll see a ~1psi shift won't change the efficiency island.

Efficiency is hype. A 14b supposedly just makes heat about 18psi, but find out what guys running 12's on 14b are pushing psi-wise.

-aaron

 

[Keaka26]

Firstly, I dont read those crap import magazines, and they rarely even feature anything to do with a DSM to begin with.

2nd, you site people as examples that are the EXCEPTIONS not the rules. Curt Brown did 10's on a FP green. Does EVERY green owner put down 10s? HELL no. Most do 12-13s.

3rd, the world doesnt revolve around the internet (getting there), thus, I cannot show you every single dyno I have ever seen.

Our tests on the full 2 1/4" IC system show a reduction in pressure drop (measured from the compressor elbow to the intake manifold) from 4psi stock to 1psi @18psi boost & 6000rpm

I trust Dejontools info completely. So theres your info right there. Three PSI less pressure drop from changing the ins/outs and getting pipes. If you dont think that three PSI is a lot, then I dont know what to tell you.

Id say running 17 psi is acceptable on the 14b, which would be 18psi before pressure drop in this system. But it would be 21 psi on the stock system. Do YOU run 21 psi on your 14b (on pump gas)? I sure hope not, because its pretty pointless, since the turbo would only be putting out hot air. Hot air equals less density, less density = less oxygen to burn. Less oxygen = less power.

Theres a general rule thats fairly common, and thats for each 10*, theres a 1-2% gain in HP. That means at 300 crank power, 10* will get you 3-6 horsepower, this isnt huge, but definitely helps. Besides that, reducing your pressure drop by 3 psi, building a cold air box, and getting a more efficient intercooler is going to drop your overall intake temps by a WHOLE lot more than 10*. You do the math.

 

[gsx91boy]

Originally posted by Keaka26
2nd, you site people as examples that are the EXCEPTIONS not the rules. Curt Brown did 10's on a FP green. Does EVERY green owner put down 10s? HELL no. Most do 12-13s.

Um, 12's on the 14b and stock smic and piping is hardly an exception. I can think of at least 5 other people that have done so. Look around, even the 14b thread there dsmtuners doing so.

Id say running 17 psi is acceptable on the 14b, which would be 18psi before pressure drop in this system. But it would be 21 psi on the stock system. Do YOU run 21 psi on your 14b (on pump gas)? I sure hope not, because its pretty pointless, since the turbo would only be putting out hot air. Hot air equals less density, less density = less oxygen to burn. Less oxygen = less power.

I guess I'll go tell the local that runs 12.8 on 20psi on pump gas on 14b to go turn his boost down

1. Stop speculating.

2. Know what setups worked for what people.

3. Realize efficiency and power calculations are always contradicted with real life experience.

To modify a smic to 2.5" in/outs does not magically make the 1g core any better as a small core with limited cooling capability. It is more cost effective to go with a mkiv smic or get a fmic anyways.

Sure vendors will claim $10 worth of piping makes 10hp as they make 90% profit off of it.

Show me proof, not bench racing speculation, that a UIP makes power.

I'm waiting.

-aaron

 

[Keaka26]

Speak for yourself, all YOU are doing is bench racing.

How many people do you know running 10's with stock piping?

To modify a smic to 2.5" in/outs does not magically make the 1g core any better as a small core with limited cooling capability. It is more cost effective to go with a mkiv smic or get a fmic anyways.

Ive seen at LEAST 5 people say they regret going with the mkiv SMIC because its ghetto as hell. Works, but its ghetto. And how do you figure, in a million years that a FMIC is cost effective?

I guess I'll go tell the local that runs 12.8 on 20psi on pump gas on 14b to go turn his boost down

Ill quote something you said on this "show me or shut up". Just because it worked doesnt mean it was even optimal. Tell me you've never seen a dyno where a person has upped the boost and come out with zero extra horsepower?? If efficiency was BS, then everyone would be pushing 30 psi from their stock turbos.

Um, 12's on the 14b and stock smic and piping is hardly an exception. I can think of at least 5 other people that have done so.

Holy crap batman! FIVE people!?! Thats insane...Thats like...Umm....A LOT LESS than 1% of all DSMs out there! If it were the rule then maybe at least 75% of people with 14bs would be pushing low 12's. Besides that, high 12's like your cool local buddy is not that special on a 14b, its pretty good, but not super special. Especially considering that SUPER low 12's have been done on a 14b.

Damn, maybe >I< should just go buy a SMALLER throttlebody and get smaller than stock pipes, and stop using an intercooler because they are all overhyped...

How can efficiency be BS ? It is PROVEN that a t-25 will not yield ANY extra performace from raising the boost from say 16psi to like 21psi. Even if the damn thing COULD push 21 psi until redline, I guarantee you that you wouldnt gain much if any horsepower.

Theres something called Diminishing Returns, maybe you should learn about it.

Tell me WHY you even BOTHER to upgrade your intercooler or turbo or piping then? WHY?

Go buy a freaking Tornado air.

 

[gsx91boy]

My argument is that a smic and the piping is sufficient for 14b.

Of course a fmic is going to add cooling and power.

Changing pipes on a lame core in an awful position to begin with will show no gain because it is not magically making the core perform cooling any better. A typical FMIC shows ~1psi pressure drop and a SMIC is hardly going to be 4x that so eff whatever Dejon claims (speaking of tornado and vendors making claims to sell products).

The issue hear is the SMIC core is not physcially changed in any way. Any gains would be from a redux in pressure drop and to what you claim results in a more efficient turbo so cooler turbo outlet temps.

I dare you to post a compressor map and go through where on the map you would be before let's say at most a 2psi difference in pressure drop before and after changing the in/out and piping.

I have yet to see any proof that an UIP or full smic piping car has performed better then on stock gear. I can also list the proof afaik that upgraded piping has shown no gains. I can also list the proof that plenty of people have gone 12's on 14b on stock smic and piping.

In fact there's a 12.1@112 14b car on stock piping video floating around the internet. I have yet to see a 14b car do better then 112-113. Like you said as well, the internet isn't the only thing in life, and there are countless of people accomplishing all sorts of things with DSMs you'll never know about because they don't have a website or go on forums. All the people stuck in the 13's on 14b are doing something wrong be it bad driver, tired motor, slipping clutch, boost leak, improper tune, poor gas, the list of variables is endless, but it has been proven time and again a 14b will do 12's on stock smic and piping, regardless of you claiming it's a fluke.

A FMIC is cost efficient because a core + jc whitney piping + truck radiator hose piping + $1 band clamps = $600 FMIC if that.

or you could spend $400 on all the piping and money needed to make a 2.5" in/out smic that will never ever perform anywhere near as well as a FMIC.

I got a MKIV smic for $60 and the size alone will offer advantages in cooling compared to a small 1g dsm core.

Take a seat :thumbdown

-aaron

 

[Keaka26]

The issue hear is the SMIC core is not physcially changed in any way. Any gains would be from a redux in pressure drop and to what you claim results in a more efficient turbo so cooler turbo outlet temps

First, it's "here", not "hear". Next, what more proof do I need than FACT? Less pressure drop = less work for the turbo which DOES = lower outlet temps. Thats all there is to it. If your turbo is pushing 17 psi at the outlet, will the air be more heated (@ outlet) if you were running 21 psi? Yes. There is no arguing that point. Which PROVES that less pressure drop will lower temps, thus increasing horsepower. That is SOLID proof that cannot be argued. Piping and opened up outlets DO reduce pressure drop, therefore they DO provide a power increase.

Honestly, I spent way too much time at work with this post yesterday (during worktime ) and I decided not to pursue this any farther. Its obvious that we both have strong thoughts on the matter and there is no convincing either of us.

 

[gsx91boy]

You have no concrete proof that modding a smic will make a car faster.

No 1/4 times or examples, and no dyno images, while I have listed numerous examples of low to mid 12's on stock smic and piping.

All you have is bullshit theory.

Save the money. Buy a FMIC instead of spending 2/3 the money of one on hacking a small core in an awful location.

-aaron

 

[Keaka26]

Jay Haas and Fathouse have ran 12.5's on stock smic piping.

Wow...Look at the numerous examples. Again, just because it CAN be done, does NOT mean that that was the best possible setup. It also doesnt mean that had they wouldnt have been faster if they ditched the stock pipes.

I could strip my car completely, port the head, get cams, SMIM, and ditch all my glass for lexan, throw on a boost controller, a K&N, and run open exhaust and Id probably run 11's. So would you go around telling everyone that upgraded turbos were all hype because it can be done on the 14b?

No you wouldnt.

20gs and greens have hit 10's, but theres only a few people doing that, you wouldnt tell people to buy a 20g if he wanted to hit 10's would you? Hell no, at very least youd probably say to get a FP3065.

 

[gsx91boy]

Blah, you're getting to caught up in your pressure drop argument. Granted, you're absolutely right - a lower pressure drop will result in cooler turbo outlet air. I'm not arguing that.

I'm just saying look around. I have a video of a [email protected] 14b on stock smic and piping on my harddrive, but fail to remember where I sourced it from. I can also give you the screen names of people I know that have run 108mph traps on stock smic stuff and 14b if you want to PM me. Here is Hidley's 12.8 on pump gas car link. He only has an UIP, which, frankly, won't make any difference in pressure drop while the smic core has 1-3/4" in/outs.

I admit, I have a 2.5" in/out smic. I purchased 2.5" piping for super cheap and felt going from a 2.5" LIP>SMIC in was a terrible idea, so I had the SMIC opened up. I believed this would do everything you say - reduce pressure drop and increase power because of less heat and less restriction.

However, I didn't really notice any gain per pocketlogger or ass dyno with this swap, nor did my car pull on my friends identically modded Talon minus SMIC mods (same compression, same base timing, same boost, etc) when we've raced from a roll. If you search around for UIP reviews, a lot of people will tell you they didn't notice a difference. Only people that buy that vendor selling bullshit will claim "it made a big difference!" while having no 1/4 slips, dyno sheets, or plogger evidence.

Now consider that the SMIC CORE was not designed for 300hp worth of airflow. Increasing the in/outs may allow for some more flow, but the core is stil small and inefficient and stil in a side-mount location which is horrible for flow through the core.

Realize that with a lower pressure drop the compressed air will spend less time in the core for heat transfer. Perhaps because of all the SMICs faults, increasing flow through it will actually negate performance because it will hinder it's limited cooling ability. An ICs cooling will reduce the intake temps much more then a 1-2psi redux in pressure drop, and therefore make more power. Just something to consider.

A typical FMIC kit including piping will show a .75-1.5 pressure drop, so I can't possibly see how a SMIC would show 4psi drop on a 14b's airflow. Whose to say Dejon didn't test on a 20g car?

Again, I agree with all your theory, which is why I modded my SMIC, however over the years there are too many examples of other people running fast times on stock gear, and too many reviews (including personal experience) stating there was little or no gain.

'M just trying to save people money and steer them away from the UIP hype, unless you are a DIY person with a welder that can do everything CHEAP. Otherwise it's better just to save for a FMIC core/endtanks down the line and have pipes welded at a muffler shop. I'm going the MKIV SMIC route.

-aaron

 

[Phil1320]

Guys--I was just searching the forums and found this....I know this was a long time ago, but I get limited time on the forums so I figured I'd just reply a little. Just some notes-

-I ran [email protected] on stock I/C, piping, MAF, and injectors. My best MPH was 113.17 in very cold weather low 40's, with no fuel control I was way lean, this was at Capitol in MD when I was working at Extreme. Average MPH was 111.0-112.0 or so. On the Altered Atmosphere AWD dyno: 257HP at 19psi, 263HP at 20psi, 266HP at 21psi. you can see that above 20psi there is not much more power to be made on the 14b.

When I went to the 2.25" piping and upgraded sidemount, 2g maf and AFC2 last year, the car made 285HP...and went the [email protected] pass. That is my quick ET and best MPH in the same pass. I have since run 22.5psi, dropping to 18 at 6000 rpm....and made 300HP and 308TQ on the Dynapacks.

Raced in May and it was hot and humid---went [email protected]

So, the sidemount just can't hang, no matter what, in the heat.

So, there was a hp gain going to the 2g maf, 550cc's, AFC, and I/C pipe, I/C upgrade.....just not enough of a gain to justify the expense...FMIC would have been the way to go from the start. One more note: The all time 16G record holder ran [email protected], Chris Tichy, and was running a BR FMIC. Some rumors state he was on SMIC. This is first hand info from him.

Later guys,

Phil1320

 

[telly699]

WOW- I have never seen two people go at competitively writing a book about nothing like this before. This post is about as intuitive and interesting as Clinton's book.

I think everyone will acknowledge that just upgrading a uicp will not yield great improvements on the low flowing stock side mount. Maybe it would even hurt the setup. BUT NOT BY VERY MUCH. I don’t think this vast argument is very relative to the thread. He says he "likes shiny pipes" so I don’t think he is too concerned with negative pressure drops, and airflow dynamics at this point. One day he will become addicted to boost like everyone else, and he will buy a front mount and utilize the uicp. Whatever, he isn’t racing where .5 seconds matter. It seems ok to buy the uicp when you upgrade the BOV or something. Get the flange, nice and shiny, and I cant imagine it making much difference. I think he will be happy with the shiny new pipes. "I can check my hair in my uicp!"

He said he was excited. Way to try and poo on his happy day.