hopefully this is an intelligent nitrous question..........

[tumuchNOS]

I see, you know alot about it then. Then how about you first figure out what your talking about. You mentioned soft plume nozzles as a way to get the fuel to "plume" and not puddle in the intake right, for your hard hitting kit?. Well, you are talking unknowingly about a nozzle that was designed for direct port racing applications that want to SOFTEN the nitrous hit fool. The fuel does not "plume" with that nozzle as pro-mods run kits as low as 3.5 psi on the fuel side. I doubt anything can "plume" at 3.5 psi super tuner. Even if it did, fuel would be the heaviest part of the charge, and it would fall from the mix and puddle again when you tried to get it to "plume" and make a 90 degree turn boy. Maybe you should spend some time learning instead of talking about stuff you know nothing about. It will save you from embarrassing situations like this. Although, your willingness to give advice on things without any hard data or knowledge is entertaining to say the least.

Good luck Dr. Nitrous.....:laugh:

 

[NosLaser]

I'm through arguing with you. Peregrine is a big boy, and he can make his own choices. Since you are all knowing, I think peregrine should cancel his account here, and not ask any questions because he can just ask you. I've sat here and listened to your bullshit attacks, and I'm through. I've promised Chris (the site administrator) that I would keep it civil. I'm not going to listen to your 'fool' and 'boy' remarks any longer. I am going to ask you one more time. If you would like to have a discussion, keep it civil. I'm not going to ask nicely again. If you want to continue beating this dead horse, keep your off color comments to yourself. You have your methods, I have my methods, and I'm sure we've each had our own successes with each. I'm willing to agree to disagree, and let the others make their own choice as well. But I'm not going to sit here and listen to your shit talk over the internet. We will continue our discussion through PM's if you would like. I think we got off on the wrong foot. You can email me at [email protected] as I have promised to not continue strings of personal attacks on this board.

Regards,

 

[peregrine]

so then, back to the original question.

 

[tumuchNOS]

Originally posted by NosLaser
I'm through arguing with you. Peregrine is a big boy, and he can make his own choices. Since you are all knowing, I think peregrine should cancel his account here, and not ask any questions because he can just ask you. I've sat here and listened to your bullshit attacks, and I'm through. I've promised Chris (the site administrator) that I would keep it civil. I'm not going to listen to your 'fool' and 'boy' remarks any longer. I am going to ask you one more time. If you would like to have a discussion, keep it civil. I'm not going to ask nicely again. If you want to continue beating this dead horse, keep your off color comments to yourself. You have your methods, I have my methods, and I'm sure we've each had our own successes with each. I'm willing to agree to disagree, and let the others make their own choice as well. But I'm not going to sit here and listen to your shit talk over the internet. We will continue our discussion through PM's if you would like. I think we got off on the wrong foot. You can email me at [email protected] as I have promised to not continue strings of personal attacks on this board.

Regards,

Talk to whoever you want. Keep it civil? Did I curse at you guttermouth? I was just responding my opinion when you made the rude comment about me huffing nitrous. You have the personal issue here, and I could care less if you listen to me or not. If you can't take someone offering an opinion, then maybe the internet is just to confrontational for you to handle. I have not personally attacked you little guy, I was just offering input on the subject for the thread starters benefit. If you can't see that, you have my condolences.
I think (this denotes my opinion for those that may take offense) you don't like having anyone on here with experience or knowledge that may exceed your own. Hope you can work though those issues and perhaps learn from others as well as offering advice.

I hope this post also met you minimum requirements for "color", and "lack of personal attacks". I suppose you will contact the admin and have me banned so you can feel better about yourself. I can't however see why they would, as you are the one all worked up about this for some reason. Especially when I made an effort to help you and others with my input.

Good luck Professor NOS, god speed....

 

[tumuchNOS]

Like I said peregrine, you will ultimatly have to weigh the cost/benefits vs the output. It is harder to tune a dry kit, and not everyone has the base knowledge or experience to hop on that train. A wet kit will provide global enrichment to keep from detonating. This is always compromised due to several things such as bottle pressure dropping steadly troughout the pass etc. If you go dry, you can adjust for the many variables that will present themselves when you are looking for the most efficent use of nitrous.

You should try wet if you please, I will be interested in the results.

KILL

 

[peregrine]

haha how impersonal. you called me "peregrine":laugh: thumb:

 

[NosLaser]

Originally posted by tumuchNOS
If you have ever really worked with nitrous sucessfully, you would know that most wet kits start lean, and end up rich stupid.

We'll start things off by saying I wasn't even directing my post towards you. I referenced your input, and questioned it, and you felt the need to call me stupid WHILE giving incorrect info. Nitrous kits are jetted intentionally rich. Get it right. You even contradict yourself by saying wet kits "provide global enrichment" and "are a compromise between power and detonation."

Also explain how a boosted deal requires a wet kit? The combustion event could care less how it recieved its enrichment when nitrous is applied.

Turbo cars have quite a different requirement than naturally aspirated cars. A naturally aspirated car can run well at close to stoichiometric while a turbo car makes it's best power with an A/F on the fat side, like around 11.1. Is that not a significant enough difference? Do we even have to get into things about cam timing and lobe seperation and go on and on about the vast differences between the way you make power with a turbocharged engine, and the way you make power with a naturally aspirated engine?

I have not personally attacked you little guy

Okay fine. We'll just call it a condescending attitude then. And what's with all the 'little guy' and 'boy' and 'son' references? Are you sure there isn't something you're not telling us?

I think (this denotes my opinion for those that may take offense) you don't like having anyone on here with experience or knowledge that may exceed your own. Hope you can work though those issues and perhaps learn from others as well as offering advice.

Opinion noted. In all honesty, of course I know there are people out there and on this forum that have more knowledge in different areas than I. There are likely to be a few that have more in just about every area, and you could be one of them. It's a pride thing I guess; if I come across in the manner in which you perceived, and I'll take a note to work on it. I have, however, had a lot of experience with nitrous on DSM's. You sound older/wiser than I (respect thing here) and you likely have a wider band of knowledge in quite a few different areas. But how long have you specifically used nitrous on DSM's? I've had extraordinary success with it, so I must be doing something right. Don't mistake my statement to mean that the laws of an internal combustion engine cease to exist on a DSM motor, but the rules of engagement to change slightly from application to application. I'm still sticking to my guns in saying that a conventional wet kit would be a simpler, more cost effective, and still very viable way for him to accomplish his goals.

I suppose you will contact the admin and have me banned so you can feel better about yourself.

Give me some credit. Although your perception of me is likely another 'fast and furious' import guy, I will tell you that you are missing the pocket by at least 6 feet and that I am not a child. The only people I report to have action taken are the very people you initially accused me of being. Like me or hate me, even the people on this board who have been around for any amount of time will have no choice but to attest to the fact that I am anything but a ricer or an advocate of movies that give ridiculous kids a false sense of what's 'fast and furious.' I'm 24 years old. My world is limited by age and experience, but I think I have an above average grasp of what it takes to make a car go fast. I lashed out at you because I found your comments to be condescending, and it seemed as if you weren't discussing different opinions, you were simply doing everything in your power to JUST discredit what I was saying at all costs. We've presented our opinions, we've sparred about it for a little bit, I think we've both now said our peace, and I'm willing to be done with it. Perhaps your perception of me has changed, and perhaps it has not. At least I feel I've presented my case much better than in my first few posts as have you, and with that I digress.

Regards,

 

[tumuchNOS]

Lets see here, I'll start with your interesting input on cam dynamics. Maybe you should check the cam specs on a N/A nitrous cam vs a grind designed for a turbo motor. Wow, they are amazing similar. In fact, there are alot of cam manuf that use the same grind for both(read the catalouges).
Then I move to the A/f of a turbo motor vs an N/A nitrous motor. You will find that a N/A motor on nitrous will usually like to run in 11:1 or 12:1 A/F depending on the engine when dialed in (not out of the box, in that case you will find that the factory tune will be brutaly rich). These were the things you cited as being the "vast" difference?
You stated that turbo motors run at 11:1, but, do you know why? As I am sure you know about the heating of the intake charge that is indicative of turbo applications, so I won't digress. Nitrous will substantialy reduce the intake temps on turbo applications. So then you have a situation where you've cooled the intake charge(better than any convetional intercooler), which will lower the detonation threshold, provide a denser charge (which will take less fuel to "cool" the event), and you've also added an oxidizer accelerant. So why will you need to add unessasary fuel beyond the minimun required to stave off detonation? I guess if you were trying to tune with an EGT guage with an out of the box tune, you could perhaps read the rise in temp as a lean condition prompting you to add fuel. However, EGT temps will also rise if you have too much fuel, I'm sure you know why so I again do not digress. So your recomendation to add fuel on top of the "safe" manufactures recomendation may be incredibly rich. Better yet, take the car to a dyno with a exhaust gas analizer and look for indications of unburnt fuel there, as you will invariably doubt anyone other than yourself.
As far as you citing your amazing sucess when using nitrous on DSM's, I have an opinion on that as well. The first thing I noticed when I started tuning nitroused DSM's, is how much easier it was then everything I had tuned before hand. DSM's are equipt. with a knock sensor that the ECU will use to pull spark lead when it detects detonation. It's like having someone there to pull timing when you mess up on your tune to keep you from damamging the engine. Not to mention the availability of a TMO timing readout on the dash, and/or a datalogger to monitor the various sensor inputs the ECU see's. I would hope anyone with reaonsable intelligence would have sucess given the application.

That said, I could careless about people's perception of me. I was not trying to discredit anyone, just offering a productive counterpoint based on my experience. As far as my perception of you, well that really doesnt matter either if you ask me. I would hope however that before you start lecturing the public at large on nitrous and its uses, you will have more experience and stop using your age as an excuse for your sensitivity when challenged. You want to impress others? Tune something other than a DSM with a babysitter ECU, and learn to read a plug. This will always allow you to understand that an IC engine on nitrous is a IC motor on nitrous....no matter what.

I will now leave you "wiseman" to your pseudo kingdom, nitrous king. I must have misunderstood the "public fourm" thing I read when I came here. Perhaps it should be changed to "nolasers nitrous consultation fourm, all other opinions will be interpreted by him as a personal attack on him". Have fun junior.

KILL

 

[NosLaser]

...Lets see here, I'll start with your interesting input on cam dynamics. Maybe you should check the cam specs on a N/A nitrous cam vs a grind designed for a turbo motor. Wow, they are amazing similar. In fact, there are alot of cam manuf that use the same grind for both(read the catalouges)...

I was speaking naturally aspirated vs. turbocharged, not nat. aspirated/nitrous vs. turbo. Of course those cams would be similar because you are dealing with a similar situation; rapidly increased cylinder pressure. Since you know all, I don't have to explain about valve overlap being a bad thing since you have highly pressurized air going past the intake valve and entering the combustion chamber. When you have overlap, even at high engine speed, you have so much pressure that it can actually blow pressurized air out the exhaust valve causing two things; a loss of cylinder pressure, and it also cools down the turbo. Again, you know all this.

...Then I move to the A/f of a turbo motor vs an N/A nitrous motor. You will find that a N/A motor on nitrous will usually like to run in 11:1 or 12:1 A/F depending on the engine when dialed in (not out of the box, in that case you will find that the factory tune will be brutaly rich). These were the things you cited as being the "vast" difference?
You stated that turbo motors run at 11:1, but, do you know why? As I am sure you know about the heating of the intake charge that is indicative of turbo applications, so I won't digress....

Captain obvious to the rescue once again. You grossly under-estimate me.

...Nitrous will substantialy reduce the intake temps on turbo applications. So then you have a situation where you've cooled the intake charge(better than any convetional intercooler), which will lower the detonation threshold, provide a denser charge (which will take less fuel to "cool" the event), and you've also added an oxidizer accelerant. So why will you need to add unessasary fuel beyond the minimun required to stave off detonation? I guess if you were trying to tune with an EGT guage with an out of the box tune, you could perhaps read the rise in temp as a lean condition prompting you to add fuel. However, EGT temps will also rise if you have too much fuel, I'm sure you know why so I again do not digress. So your recomendation to add fuel on top of the "safe" manufactures recomendation may be incredibly rich. Better yet, take the car to a dyno with a exhaust gas analizer and look for indications of unburnt fuel there, as you will invariably doubt anyone other than yourself....

It's simple really. Regardless of the 'quality' of the charge, you still have to worry about the sky-high cylinder pressure generated in producing big power from a 2.0 liter 4 cylinder. You don't have to be this aggressive with the fuel making that same power with your V8 and that's simply because the cylinder pressure isn't as high. Draw the equation to scale, and you bet your ass you'll be adding more fuel than that required to 'just stave off detonation.' Furthermore, I must again remind you of what happens when you assume. You seem to be doing a lot of assuming in this thread, and it's certainly making an ass out of yourself. High EGT's are not neccessarily a bad thing. In fact, they are most welcome on a turbo car since the turbo functions completely off heat energy. To touch on your assumption that I don't know anything about EGT's, you can tune the EGT's to be higher in the exhaust manifold than in the combustion chamber through retarding the exhaust cam or even simply retarding ignition timing; you are going to get SOME explosions in the exhaust manifold but that will be beneficial for turbo spoolup. Those are the kind of EGT's that you want, however they can wear down lower quality parts; i.e. it may not be so good for turbine wheel blades or wastegates. This is the reason why some companies will make parts out of inconel. One last thing...where did I recommend ADDING fuel over the factory setting? You may very well be taking fuel out, but that will of course vary from application to application.

...As far as you citing your amazing sucess when using nitrous on DSM's, I have an opinion on that as well. The first thing I noticed when I started tuning nitroused DSM's, is how much easier it was then everything I had tuned before hand. DSM's are equipt. with a knock sensor that the ECU will use to pull spark lead when it detects detonation. It's like having someone there to pull timing when you mess up on your tune to keep you from damamging the engine. Not to mention the availability of a TMO timing readout on the dash, and/or a datalogger to monitor the various sensor inputs the ECU see's. I would hope anyone with reaonsable intelligence would have sucess given the application....

If you did your research, many people had very bad luck with nitrous on DSM's, especially when DSM racing was in it's infancy. A certain guy by the name of Dave Buschur used to drone on about how bad it was for these cars. Obviously, things have come a long way since then, and people are having great success with nitrous on DSM's, and I'm sure some of the things you mentioned play a role. Just a little FYI; I never tuned my car on the datalogger.

...That said, I could careless about people's perception of me. I was not trying to discredit anyone, just offering a productive counterpoint based on my experience. As far as my perception of you, well that really doesnt matter either if you ask me. I would hope however that before you start lecturing the public at large on nitrous and its uses, you will have more experience and stop using your age as an excuse for your sensitivity when challenged. You want to impress others? Tune something other than a DSM with a babysitter ECU, and learn to read a plug. This will always allow you to understand that an IC engine on nitrous is a IC motor on nitrous....no matter what....

Sure you were. Aside from some random technical splatter, you have done nothing but jump all over my case and make assumptions that were WAY off base. Now you bring up 'learn how to read a plug.' I have posted threads on this board explaining how to read plugs, that they are your window into the combustion chamber, the importance of looking at them under a magnifying glass, etc. Again, assuming. And I didn't use my age as an excuse for sensitivity there, old balls. I used it as a way to show YOU some respect since I felt I lashed out at you unneccessarily...I even referenced you having a larger scope due to your age relative to mine, and your experience. Again, respect..a little something you lack. It's a shame because I thought you would have picked up on that. Apparently, I OVER estimated you.

...I will now leave you "wiseman" to your pseudo kingdom, nitrous king. I must have misunderstood the "public fourm" thing I read when I came here. Perhaps it should be changed to "nolasers nitrous consultation fourm, all other opinions will be interpreted by him as a personal attack on him". Have fun junior....

Haha!!! Well aren't you just the cutest little martyr. But I thank you for leaving me to my 'kingdom.' I will continue to help people with their cars, and continue to share my knowledge when I can. I will also continue to see people's posts on this forum mentioning the results they obtain after asking me for advice, such as this one: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6873
That just burns your ass doesn't it? But anyway, you have fun as well old balls. Till we meet again.

Regards,

 

[theturbo4]

Originally posted by tumuchNOS
I still don't get your need for others to give you validation either. I could care less about testimonials man. Good for you and all, but, I think I'm past all of that (BTW, I'm still in my 20's).

If you all really didn't feel the need for validation by others, then you would keep this asnine arguement to PMs until you figure out a solution. The only thing thats happening here is not an education, but a tearing down of each person, which makes the information given by any side questionable, to see the least.

 

[theturbo4]

Originally posted by tumuchNOS
Or go to a track and listen to the guys faster than you. Don't take my word for it.

KILL

Hmm, how mature.... you really know how to present yourself

 

[theturbo4]

Originally posted by tumuchNOS
Maturity? Presentation? Is this some strange attempt to ensnare someone in a web of circular logic?

Don't try to read too deeply into things....it's obviously not your strong point

 

[Stock Josh]

I like how Coral Springs (Turbo4) up here jumps in at an attempt to be a hero and just makes an ass of herself........................

Stock Josh

 

[theturbo4]

Originally posted by Stock Josh
I like how Coral Springs (Turbo4) up here jumps in at an attempt to be a hero and just makes an ass of herself........................

Stock Josh

And did you come up with that assumption all by yourself there? It's sweet of you to stand up for your buddy, Mr. Too Much, but please bring something intelligent to the table if you want to sit with the grownups....

I have no intentions of "heroism" there buddy. I just point out the stupid comments and mindless bickering. There is knowledge to be shared by both sides, Noslaser and Toomuch. Its just too bad it gets garbled by what has turned into a pissing contest. Take it for whats its worth.

 

[peregrine]

riiiight........ this is lame. why are you f*cks whoring up my thread? i think ill go ask dirty dan for nitrous advice

 

[NosLaser]

What happened to your post tumuch? I was looking forward to replying to you. For the record, I have never met theturbo4 so don't misconstrue him as being a hero coming to my rescue. I've never had any trouble fighting my own battles.

Regards,

 

[Zerocygnal]

...Actually..it was quite educational. If someone cut out all of the BS and attacks in the middle, this would make an awesome Q&A or an awesome nitrous debate. Other than that I enjoyed reading it, I learned alot.

 

[Nuclearhappines]

funny

too much nitrous : why are you against installing a wet kit and then tuning it across the rpm range the way you would tune your dry kits ... in the end the power is the same sans the fuel puddling issue (which should not be an issue for the average joe size shots) ?

am i right ?

as far as wet vs dry stands :

I believe that on 4 cylinder cars:

Dry is better for upto a 60-70hp shots
Wet is better for 80-100 hp shots because of injector/ tuning limitations that most people have (at least the ones that ask me for advice)
Past 100hp you either go custom dry and lots of tuning (no fuel puddling)
or Direct port ... which is the oppositve of what most people will tell you on the forums

most of what i hear on the forums is up to a 60 shot you're safe with a dry kit, anything past go wet , no questions asked...

Nuke
ex-forced induction moderator
www.celica.net