advance timing

[eddie96gsn]

I'm spraying a 75 shot and I set my msd dis2 to retard at 4 degrees starting at 4000 rpms to max rev limit which is 6700 rpms and it pulls alot harder than setting it at 2 degrees, when I was on the highway this morning doing 90 I decided to use my nitrous and floor'd it and notice that my tach was at 5800 rpms so I pushed the little red button about 2 to 3 seconds later I detonated nothing happened to the car except a couple of vaccum lines came off. Now my question, is that too much should I back off 1 or 2 degrees I mean it only happens when I manually use my nitrous at high rpms set at 4 dgrees. any inputs

nitrous works wet kit
gst fuel pump
gap at .32

 

[Colossus]

Back down to 2, and get a logger or something to watch your knock count. After you have a logger, knock the nitrous down as small as it goes....have 0 retard...and work your way up, keeping an eye on the knock. Tune it

 

[talonawd94tsi]

you should get one heat range colder plugs
and don't retard the timing at all

i had a 100 shot on my neon with one heat colder plugs and it was fine with stock timing


the neon and 2g n/t have same bottom end

 

[DSMJim]

I'm spraying a 75 shot and I set my msd dis2 to retard at 4 degrees starting at 4000 rpms to max rev limit which is 6700 rpms and it pulls alot harder than setting it at 2 degrees, when I was on the highway this morning doing 90 I decided to use my nitrous and floor'd it and notice that my tach was at 5800 rpms so I pushed the little red button about 2 to 3 seconds later I detonated nothing happened to the car except a couple of vaccum lines came off. Now my question, is that too much should I back off 1 or 2 degrees I mean it only happens when I manually use my nitrous at high rpms set at 4 dgrees. any inputs

nitrous works wet kit
gst fuel pump
gap at .32

Gap your plugs down tighter too. What is stock? go .005 tighter then that. If your stock .035 then goto .030.

As everybody else said you shouldn't need to retard your timing at all. I sprayed 150hp shot on my VR6 with no retard at all. Go back to 0 and start with a 35-50hp shot and log it to see what happens.

Chances are what you think it detonation is acctually mis-fire because your plugs are old/worn or gapped to large. Whats happening when you have what you think is detonation?

 

[eddie96gsn]

My plugs are gap at .32 and my meaning of detonation a big loud bang and black smoke and also I did put my timing back to 0 but it didnt pull as hard as for the logger how could I get one for my n/t eclipse

 

[DSMJim]

My plugs are gap at .32 and my meaning of detonation a big loud bang and black smoke and also I did put my timing back to 0 but it didnt pull as hard as for the logger how could I get one for my n/t eclipse

Unfortunately I don't think you can get a logger for a 96 N/T if that is what you have. You have absolutly no car info in your profile at all, so I'm assuming you drive a 96 because of your name, but thats a guess.

If your hearing a bang and black smoke then your either hitting your rev-limiter and you have your DIS-2 dip switch setting setup wrong (I have one too, been there done that) or your having miss-fire. You could also have your two step inproperly hooked up and your activating it by accident. I had mine hooked up and the switch went bad and it made my two step come on here and there giving me another rev limiter at 5500rpm. It did exactly what your talking about and I couldn't figure out for the life of me what the hell was going on. Once I changed my button over it was back to normal. Try putting your by-pass plug in the DIS2 harness and going out again and see what happens, if problem goes away then you need to check your dip switch settings. Check them VERY carefully too because I had mine screwed up by accident and I was putting in retard when I thought I was changing my two step.

Detonation is felt more like a surging and sounds like a pinging noise of a hammer on metal. The big bang and smoke your talking about is fuel being dumped out of the cylinder not being ignited until it hits the exhaust manifold where it's igniting because of the heat and shooting a huge flame down your exhaust pipe.

 

[DSMJim]

Was it like this? This is me hitting the revlimiter in my car with a DIS2. Clear the track baby, somebody is toting a shot gun....

http://www.etdracing.com/jim/backfire.wmv

 

[eddie96gsn]

That's exactly what happens, but it's fine when I start at launch I can go to all my gears and it's fine it only happens when I use it manually at high speeds that when it back fires, some said that it could be my two step but I know that's fine since my car is a a/t I have my launch control hook up to my brake so I dont have to use a momentary switch

 

[DSMJim]

Sounds like your having missfire then. Tighten up the gap on your plugs and try again. Go to .030 then .028 and see what happens. If nothing changes then put in your by-pass plug and try again without the MSD running.

(ever notice that MSD is DSM backwards?)

 

[eddie96gsn]

I regaped my plugs at .30 then went to the dsm thing up in chicago rigde mall and it was fine .



Thanks for the help

 

[DSMJim]

No problem. Note to others who may read this later on. MSD or most ignition systems for that matter need a really tight gap for them to work properly. Not that they are less powerful but that they just run better when setup this way. This is not the first time I have seen this problem like this.

 

[GSGoinFast]

well this seems to be resolved, and since its pretty much the same topic ill continue from here.

you dont have to retard timing? how come all ive heard is to retard it, and teh zex install guide says to retard it?

 

[peanotation]

well this seems to be resolved, and since its pretty much the same topic ill continue from here.

you dont have to retard timing? how come all ive heard is to retard it, and teh zex install guide says to retard it?

yeah, it says for a 55shot you don't need to touch it, but a 65 needs 2 degree and 75 needs 4 degree timing retard. so you really dont have to?

 

[DSMJim]

well this seems to be resolved, and since its pretty much the same topic ill continue from here.

you dont have to retard timing? how come all ive heard is to retard it, and teh zex install guide says to retard it?

Thats because people at ZEX are retards. They claim to have the safest nitrous kits available. Wonder why? Because they tell you to retard 4deg for a 75hp shot? . No because they do all these stupid things that make it safer because their systems make less HP. Thats the only reason they are safer is because your 75hp shot is only putting 50hp to the wheels. Gee a 75hp shot thats a safe as a 50hp shot, what a great idea. Sooo safe...

I guarantee you that you will not blow up your motor with a 75hp shot and no retard. How do I know this? Because lots of guys on this board have exactly that with no retard.

From NX's site:
Q. Should I change my ignition system in any way (timing, plugs, etc.)?
A. All NX Stage One or Street systems are designed to operate with no timing retard. Spark plugs should be changed to non-platinum style, 1 to 2 steps colder than stock.

I have run NX single nossle wet kit to 200hp on my dads Maxima, 150hp on my old GTI VR6 and 100hp on other turbo cars with no retarded timing ever. If I retarded the timing on any of these setups it would only lose power, not make the setup any more safe. I ran 100hp shot dry on my VR6 no retard (because I couldn't) and no problems with that even and the VR6 is very liberal with timing, trust me.

To put this in perspective, all NX kits make within 2% of their claimed HP. A 75hp shot gives you 75whp (or very close within 2% or less than 2hp) guaranteed. They say no retarded timing. A dry kit makes 75hp at the crank and asks for 4 deg of retard. Tell me whats wrong with this picture?

 

[GSGoinFast]

Thats because people at ZEX are retards. They claim to have the safest nitrous kits available. Wonder why? Because they tell you to retard 4deg for a 75hp shot? . No because they do all these stupid things that make it safer because their systems make less HP. Thats the only reason they are safer is because your 75hp shot is only putting 50hp to the wheels. Gee a 75hp shot thats a safe as a 50hp shot, what a great idea. Sooo safe...

I guarantee you that you will not blow up your motor with a 75hp shot and no retard. How do I know this? Because lots of guys on this board have exactly that with no retard.

From NX's site:
Q. Should I change my ignition system in any way (timing, plugs, etc.)?
A. All NX Stage One or Street systems are designed to operate with no timing retard. Spark plugs should be changed to non-platinum style, 1 to 2 steps colder than stock.

I have run NX single nossle wet kit to 200hp on my dads Maxima, 150hp on my old GTI VR6 and 100hp on other turbo cars with no retarded timing ever. If I retarded the timing on any of these setups it would only lose power, not make the setup any more safe. I ran 100hp shot dry on my VR6 no retard (because I couldn't) and no problems with that even and the VR6 is very liberal with timing, trust me.

To put this in perspective, all NX kits make within 2% of their claimed HP. A 75hp shot gives you 75whp (or very close within 2% or less than 2hp) guaranteed. They say no retarded timing. A dry kit makes 75hp at the crank and asks for 4 deg of retard. Tell me whats wrong with this picture?

ya im one of them who is running a 75 with no timing retard. but if i go any higher would i need to or will i be perfectly fine(ignition wise)? cause i was gonna get teh greddy emanage cause you can do air fuel and ignition maps, but if i dont need ignition im just gonna buy a s-afc for cheap from a friend

 

[DSMJim]

ya im one of them who is running a 75 with no timing retard. but if i go any higher would i need to or will i be perfectly fine(ignition wise)? cause i was gonna get teh greddy emanage cause you can do air fuel and ignition maps, but if i dont need ignition im just gonna buy a s-afc for cheap from a friend

At a certian point it eventually gets where you will need a management system so you can build a map particurarly for nitrous. You may find on yoru car that you can end at the same timing level at wot but you ramp it slower so your at lower timing numbers when it first comes on after a shift then builds from there more quickly at the end near your redline. I woudl honestly try a 100hp shot on the car with no retard still because you shouldn't need to retard timing on any car with only a 100hp shot. After that I woud likely build my own map in an emanage or whatever and have the timing start lower and ramp faster after 5000rpm type of thing to prevent detonation at lower RPM where the motor likes to blow.

 

[GSGoinFast]

At a certian point it eventually gets where you will need a management system so you can build a map particurarly for nitrous. You may find on yoru car that you can end at the same timing level at wot but you ramp it slower so your at lower timing numbers when it first comes on after a shift then builds from there more quickly at the end near your redline. I woudl honestly try a 100hp shot on the car with no retard still because you shouldn't need to retard timing on any car with only a 100hp shot. After that I woud likely build my own map in an emanage or whatever and have the timing start lower and ramp faster after 5000rpm type of thing to prevent detonation at lower RPM where the motor likes to blow.

so should i go with the E-manage, or the S-AFC? i guess what im asking is which will come first, a shot that high enough to blow my bottom end, or a shot that will need timing adjustment? well in your opinion what should i get? S-AFC for $150 or E-manage for $380(i already have a laptop, and that price includes the ignintion, fuel, and computer extras)??

 

[peanotation]

S-AFC doesn't really do much for tuning, more of like a show ricer thing.

 

[DSMJim]

S-AFC doesn't really do much for tuning, more of like a show ricer thing.

Well I wouldn't say that honestly. My car runs solely on a SAFC and pulls low 12's. I tune my dads maxima with a 200hp shot with a afc and he will probablly go high 11's this weekend (went 12.1 already this year same as me)

The afc is a power tuning tool in the right hands. Howver in this situation you need control over timing and an e-manage would be a good start, or dsm link really. You will probablly run into the point of the bottom end blowing up and needing to retard timing at the same point . I would say 100hp shot is just fine, after that you would likely need to pull a degree or two and you may be at the limits of the stock bottom end for reliability sakes at 125hp anyways. You may get away with it once or twice, but not a lot.

 

[GSGoinFast]

Well I wouldn't say that honestly. My car runs solely on a SAFC and pulls low 12's. I tune my dads maxima with a 200hp shot with a afc and he will probablly go high 11's this weekend (went 12.1 already this year same as me)

The afc is a power tuning tool in the right hands. Howver in this situation you need control over timing and an e-manage would be a good start, or dsm link really. You will probablly run into the point of the bottom end blowing up and needing to retard timing at the same point . I would say 100hp shot is just fine, after that you would likely need to pull a degree or two and you may be at the limits of the stock bottom end for reliability sakes at 125hp anyways. You may get away with it once or twice, but not a lot.

Well, i have 2 questions now... 3 actually. first, if im not planning on running anything over 100, will a s-afc do fine? second, do you need the lap top in your car at all times, or just when your tuning(heard it was just when you tuning which is fine cuz ill be using my sis's, but if i need it all the time, no dice)? last, what gauges are needed for tuning. EGT and A/F? do i need a wide band o2 or can i get away with an using an autometer stock o2 sensor gauge?

thanks