RWD 4G63 Subframe mod?

[DSM's 4 life]

anyone have tips for reinforcing the front this is what i am thinking.

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[4g63tc]

The more I look at the thin walled steel you used. I wonder to myself if you jumped hard enough where the square tube attaches to the " firewall " it would fold in half.

You have about 500.00 in scrap metal there.

 

[gabytech]

Are you serious ??? Dude eat a snicker and wake up... I feel really sorry for you wasting time and money building the most wrong build race car I've seen... Ive tried NUMEROUS NUMEROUS times trying to give him advice and he never listed, he won't changed his way. Its useless, he has his mind set building it himself without having chassis and suspension knowledge and fab skills..

 

[DSMnoobsause]

I don't think he understands english. If everything was ok the cage mounting would never pass any tech or state inspection to opperate on the track or streets.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Nothing we discussed 12 days ago has changed. This needs to be put through the crusher then made into coke cans and boat anchors.

There is literally no salvaging what has been done.

 

[boostedinaz]

Wow just wow. I truly hope this is a joke thread.

Well I don't post here much any more but found this thread from another forum and decided I would chime in with my .02

I work at a chassis shop and we specialize in exactly what you are trying to do..building chassis' and swapping drivetrains. At first when I saw this thread I thought poor guy but at least he's trying....then things got really bad, like really really bad.

For the safety of yourself and others who may be driving around you you need to stop building this car. You have begun a project that is WELL above your current skill level. As I said on one hand I am glad you are trying out fabrication but the work you are doing is VERY unsafe. A build of this magnitude is not the place to start learning the basic skills.


I would usually do my best to help out and give some pointers but I honestly have no idea where to start. You have changed this car to the point that it is no longer road worthy and certainly not track worthy. To avoid wasting any more time and money I would suggest taking others advice and not being so stubborn.

Michael

 

[kidtsi]

I still remember he was gonna prove me wrong, that his car was gonna weight less than 2k pounds with basic weight reduction, till now... well, maybe the way is right now.

Anyways good luck man, if you get pass the 5k mark i can give you some leggo custom mounts i have. Jk

 

[bigbird94]

Please SCRAP this abortion before you hurt or KILL yourself, or someone else.

If you want a $5k project try a stock block awd 1g dsm with a 16g and ecmlink.

 

[DSM's 4 life]

I had a built 2g I have a build thread on here

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

I had a built 2g I have a build thread on here

That is not the least bit relevant to this discussion.

 

[DSM's 4 life]

That is not the least bit relevant to this discussion.

"I'm aware". Just thought I'd mention it since he told me to be normal and build an awd 1g.

 

[phizzalot]

Um I've been checking out this thread as well and didn't chime in because I have Zero idea of how to build a proper rwd car. However if the op wanted to get back on the right track, dare I suggest getting a front clip and starting over ?

 

[4g63tc]

I'm not even sure if a front clip will work, with the amount of hacking that has occurred to the firewall, and floor pan . You might actually have to get a front half, the graft it in. IMO not worth it, and still way above OP's skill level.


Sell it for scrap, then take the cash, and buy something RWD and build it. My 1990 dodge D250 2wd has a 440 CID with an edelbrock efi setup. It motorvates quite nicely and is solid as a rock


Hell, it would be easier to drop a v8 into my miata. I wouldn't even have to hack it up. Just fab mounts, and get some custom axles, and drive shaft made.

 

[boostedinaz]

Um I've been checking out this thread as well and didn't chime in because I have Zero idea of how to build a proper rwd car. However if the op wanted to get back on the right track, dare I suggest getting a front clip and starting over ?

No that car is scrap. Even if a front clip could be bought he doesnt have the skills to out it back on.

 

[DSM's 4 life]

The reason I cut the front end off was because it had no use. I was not us ring the struts and the factory frame rails were about 15" to high. I don't know why everyone says its scrap. You can always fix & improve past actions I can make the whole car tubular and just have the shell in there for looks if that's what it comes down to. I still have the majority of the front clip btw was selling the strut towers since they had 0 rust.

 

[DSMnoobsause]

do you not see the errors of your ways? I don't think you fully understand how bad this is and how you WILL die in it if you drive it. no amount of reinforcing will fix this!

 

[Colt4G63 also]

The OP has a point; you could always build a full tube chassis from scratch, and just pin the sheet metal on to it for decoration, and to keep rain and birdsh@t off the driver. It's only metal you can always fix it.

 

[GSTTOBEAT]

 

[Tyeler18]

The reason I cut the front end off was because it had no use. I was not us ring the struts and the factory frame rails were about 15" to high. I don't know why everyone says its scrap. You can always fix & improve past actions I can make the whole car tubular and just have the shell in there for looks if that's what it comes down to. I still have the majority of the front clip btw was selling the strut towers since they had 0 rust.

"I" should be "a professional chassis shop"

 

[boostedinaz]

The reason I cut the front end off was because it had no use. I was not us ring the struts and the factory frame rails were about 15" to high. I don't know why everyone says its scrap. You can always fix & improve past actions I can make the whole car tubular and just have the shell in there for looks if that's what it comes down to. I still have the majority of the front clip btw was selling the strut towers since they had 0 rust.

You can choose not listen if you want and as I said in my last post I usually dont respond to these threads but in your case safety is a HUGE issue.

I assure you the car is junk. Even if your ideas made perfect sense the execution is still very unsafe. The cage (the foundation of your chassis) is doing nothing but adding weight at this point. In fairness a very high percentage of drag racing cages are garbage but will work well enough. Yours will not. The downward door bar with the miter cut is in no way shape or form acceptable. Most sanctioning bodies will require that bar to be a single piece as does common sense. On top of that the way you choose to construct it is beyond incorrect. In any front to back collision that bar would push over and tear out of the body with ease. A cage is not only about safety its about rigidity. With the amount of torque that motor will make a strong rigid chassis will be key.

That square tubing structure has no base plate from the looks of it. After a few good launches (please dont let it get there) it will tear them out. I assume the bottom section that is butt welded doesnt have any sort of slug in it? Why not use a single piece for that? The front suspension as is would most likely fold as soon as the drive train is set in place. The tubing you want to add will only be of minimal help since no matter where you place them the strength is missing.

Based on only those few bits and pieces I can say that building a full tub chassis is way out of your skill level. Im not trying to be a dick Im trying to be honest to save you money and time. Even if you finish this car it wont pass any tech at any track nor would it pass state inspection. At that point you wont even be able to sell it to anyone with even the slightest amount of common sense. If you want to learn fab work start on parts that are not critical like exhaust. You have to realize that when you build cages and chassis you are taking peoples lives into your hands. In this case its your own life. I do this for a living and I hold myself to a high standard and safety is a big reason for that. Some people tell us our cages are "excessive" but there are too many threads out there showing cage failures.

Ill attach a pic of the rear section of a cage Im building in an E36 M3. It has lots of triangles, clusters, and load paths all thing you should read about to help learn.

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[gabytech]

The reason I cut the front end off was because it had no use. I was not us ring the struts and the factory frame rails were about 15" to high. I don't know why everyone says its scrap. You can always fix & improve past actions I can make the whole car tubular and just have the shell in there for looks if that's what it comes down to. I still have the majority of the front clip btw was selling the strut towers since they had 0 rust.

Will there be a point you realize you have it ALL wrong ? In which case if you can't built a front half the right way what makes you think you can build a full chassis car and for what, to race 10 seconds ??? Common man be real with yourself... From day one, even before you started murdering the car and getting yourself deeper in the hole I tried to advice you the best way, and every day you get deeper in disaster.. I'm convinced you are so concentrated on proving everyone wrong, that you willing to any length to finish your build even if its wrongly built just to prove a point, which to be real is pointless. The way you have design and welded that front end, it will bend to shit when you put the engine weight on the chassis. The front frame rail aren't supported the right way to the other part of the car/chassis... It still looks like you haven't done your homework, there are a lot of internet pages with pictures of chassis been fabricated from start to finish. Where in your own world have you come up with such horrible and worthless chassis design ?? The more I keep thinking about your build the more frustrated I get with you. What are you waiting for to realize your mistakes and wake up ??

Some people tell us our cages are "excessive" but there are too many threads out there showing cage failures.

Did you know some parts of the cages are design to fail ??? Do you remember the Nascar accident last year where the front end completely broke off the car and parts of the car injured the spectators ??? Actually the cage didn't fail, it did its job to perfection, its design to "fail" like that... Just wanted to point that out... I have a vey close personal friend who used to work for Chassis Engineering Inc. and even designed the 3/4 chassis most 6sec race cars use today, we have spent hours and hours talking about cages along the way he helping me design my race cars and Ive learned a lot from him about chassis and cages. Even a lot of good welders and chassis fabricators are clueless how a cage is suppose to act in case of a crash, certain tubes in a cage are design to fail and break off the car to protect the driver from the cage getting smashed inside the drivers cockpit.

 

[boostedinaz]

Did you know some parts of the cages are design to fail ??? Do you remember the Nascar accident last year where the front end completely broke off the car when he crashed with the wall and parts of the car injured the spectators ??? Actually the cage didn't fail, it did its job to perfection, its design to "fail" like that... Just wanted to point that out...

NASCAR also uses carbs and suspension designed for trucks from the early 60s. IMO they are not much of a baseline for anything other than well NASCAR. They may indeed design crumple zones into their cars but I couldnt care less because that has little to do with racing at the club level.

I can tell you that when converting a street car to a race vehicle. Cage failure is just that.... failure. The cage I posted has Xs through out as well as FIA bars and halo bars all for occupant safety and rigidity. It would take an extremely terrible and violent accident to make this cage fail.

 

[gabytech]

NASCAR also uses carbs and suspension designed for trucks from the early 60s. IMO they are not much of a baseline for anything other than well NASCAR. They may indeed design crumple zones into their cars but I couldnt care less because that has little to do with racing at the club level.

I can tell you that when converting a street car to a race vehicle. Cage failure is just that.... failure. The cage I posted has Xs through out as well as FIA bars and halo bars all for occupant safety and rigidity. It would take an extremely terrible and violent accident to make this cage fail.

I'm not going to begin a debate with you, as that's not the point, but Nascar technology aint in the 60s era like you think. Besides we agree that this DSM member design and fabrication aint right and it has wrong written all over, that's the point...

 

[boostedinaz]

Will there be a point you realize you have it ALL wrong ? In which case if you can't built a front half the right way what makes you think you can build a full chassis car and for what, to race 10 seconds ??? Common man be real with yourself... From day one, even before you started murdering the car and getting yourself deeper in the hole I tried to advice you the best way, and every day you get deeper in disaster.. I'm convinced you are so concentrated on proving everyone wrong, that you willing to any length to finish your build even if its wrongly built just to prove a point, which to be real is pointless. The way you have design and welded that front end, it will bend to shit when you put the engine weight on the chassis. The front frame rail aren't supported the right way to the other part of the car/chassis... It still looks like you haven't done your homework, there are a lot of internet pages with pictures of chassis been fabricated from start to finish. Where in your own world have you come up with such horrible and worthless chassis design ?? The more I keep thinking about your build the more frustrated I get with you. What are you waiting for to realize your mistakes and wake up ??



Did you know some parts of the cages are design to fail ??? Do you remember the Nascar accident last year where the front end completely broke off the car and parts of the car injured the spectators ??? Actually the cage didn't fail, it did its job to perfection, its design to "fail" like that... Just wanted to point that out... I have a vey close personal friend who used to work for Chassis Engineering Inc. and even designed the 3/4 chassis most 6sec race cars use today, we have spent hours and hours talking about cages along the way he helping me design my race cars and Ive learned a lot from him about chassis and cages. Even a lot of good welders and chassis fabricators are clueless how a cage is suppose to act in case of a crash, certain tubes in a cage are design to fail and break off the car to protect the driver from the cage getting smashed inside the drivers cockpit.

I just saw that you made an edit to your post. I am VERY interested in knowing what bars you think should fail in a cage. In fact I have a few questions about that.

What bars do you think should fail?

In what way are these bar supposed to fail ie break in two, bend outward etc?

How does the builder guarantee that no matter what type of racing incident the car is in, the cage fails in the exact way you "designed" it to fail?

Dont think that more bracing would be a better way to protect the driver from the cage "smashing inside the cockpit"?

If were gonna discuss cages then lets discuss cages.

 

[gabytech]

I just saw that you made an edit to your post. I am VERY interested in knowing what bars you think should fail in a cage. In fact I have a few questions about that.

What bars do you think should fail?

In what way are these bar supposed to fail ie break in two, bend outward etc?

How does the builder guarantee that no matter what type of racing incident the car is in, the cage fails in the exact way you "designed" it to fail?

Dont think that more bracing would be a better way to protect the driver from the cage "smashing inside the cockpit"?

If were gonna discuss cages then lets discuss cages.

I used the wrong word, its not that certain bars are designed to fail. SFI cages aren't design to be rigid front to back, the front end as well as the rear end are design to not collapse into the cockpit area. The front end as well as the rear end tie points to the cockpit cage are design to "break" off the cockpit cage minimizing the danger of the the cage collapsing all together and any danger to the driver. Just like the Nascar incident the front end broke of the cage. In a rigid cage crashing into the wall at high speeds could squash the front end into the cockpit... I'm explaining what I understand from what my friend told me in my own words, I could call him up and help me write a professional and more deep explanation on the subject..