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Turbo System Tech: 4G63 turbos, Intercooling, Boost Control, Wastegates, etc.

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Old 05-26-2010, 06:47 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #1 (permalink)
DSM Wiseman
 

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Holset Turbos, PART 8


Continue on...

For more discussion history:
Link to Part 1 :
Holset Turbos

Link to Part 2:
Holset Turbos, PART 2

Link to Part 3:
Holset Turbos, PART 3

Link to Part 4:
Holset Turbos, PART 4

Link to Part 5:
Holset Turbos, PART 5

Link to Part 6:
Holset Turbos, PART 6

Link to Part 7:
Holset Turbos, PART 7

Link to Part 8:
Holset Turbos, PART 8

Link to Part 9:
Holset Turbos, PART 9


For Holset FAQ: (growing document and not finished)
Link to FAQ:
Holset Turbos, FAQ


For in vehicle results:
Link to Results Only:
Holset Turbos, RESULTS ONLY (COMPLETE INSTALLED SYSTEMS)

Link to HX-52 setup;
Holset Volvo HX-52 Dyno Sheets


For more specific component discussion:
Link to Holset Part #'s:
Holset Part # Thread Only!!!!

Link to Holset oil feed discussion:
Holset HX-35 Oiling
Garrett & Holset Turbo Users - Your Oil Drain May Be Too Small!

Link to Fake Holset Info:
Counterfeit Holset Turbos


Summary provided by wiseman, Dsm-onster:
HX35:

The 8blade hx35 has a 56mm compressor inducer. This is found on 1995-1998 cummins manual pickups. The compressor flows 52 lb/min according to the compressor map. The bolton BEP housing (0.55 a/r) is enough to push the limit of the compressor. There's several 500whp 8blade hx35 cars out there with the bolt on housing. It reaches 20+psi by 3500rpms in 3rd with 272 cams. Smaller cams would equal a faster spool speed in most cases.

The 7blade hx35 has a 56mm compressor inducer. This is found on the 1999-2002 cummins manual pickups. The compressor flows 60lb/min according to the compressor map and logged results from a member here. The bolton BEP housing with the hx35 turbine wheel do not SEAM to have enough flow to really reach the potential of 60lb/min. But many have logged over 50lb/min so far and seen 500whp. The stock hx35 12cm^2 twinscroll turbine housing is a t3 flange housing. This mated to a NON-divided runner manifold has produced a 132mph trap speed with a full weight 1g AWD. This is about 600whp. So the flow is there with the stock housing if you use a non-divided manifold. The spool speed of the 7blade hx35 is similar to the 8blade hx35 with 20+ psi by 3500rpms in the bolton housing and by 4000rpms with the stock housing with a non-divided manifold.

HY35:

The hy35 has a smaller turbine wheel than the hx35. And, it has a turbine housing connection that does not allow for a bolton housing to be used. It does not have a divided housing so any t3 manifold can be used effectively with this turbo. It has the same compressor as the 7blade hx35. We don't know if te hy35 turbine wheel and housing is enough to reache the 60lb/min potential of the 56mm 7blade compressor. Some one try it out already!!! It should at least be a faster spooling viable option to the full t3/t4 50-trim.

H1C/WH1C:

In 1994, there was the Wh1c which has pretty much the identical compressor as the hx35 but with a Vband compressor cover. The turbine wheel is the same. It will bolt into the BEP bolton hx35 turbine housing. It has 4 bolts at the housing instead of 6. So you will need to buy 2 more bolts and use 6 washers cut to make a flat side. Honestly, I just used bolts that were cut a little short and the bolt head was wide enough to pull the chra to the turbine housing. No sealing issues. Since the Wh1c is for all practical purposes an 8blade hx35 the spool and flow is the same too.

I have the big h1c. It comes on the INTERCOOLED 1991-1993 cummins pickups. It has the webbing for MWE but no groove cut like the hx35/wh1c has. This turbo I term the big h1c because it has a 54mm compressor inducer and same exducer than the 8blade hx35/Wh1c. The other h1c is the small h1c found on the NON-intercooled cummins pickups. This has a 50mm inducer but only 7blades and has no webbing for MWE. Less blades helps flow, but so does a larger inducer diameter. The most whp ever recorded on a gas 4cylinder with the small h1c was done on a KA24 nissan: 411whp. Since the big h1c has a 4mm larger inducer and the same turbine wheel as the hx35, it is safe to say that it flows enough for between 411whp and 500whp. The diesel sources state that it flows SLIGHTLY less than the early hx35. So 4lb/min less than the 8blade hx35 puts the flow of the big h1c at 48-49lb/min right where a 50-trim or 20g is. The small bep housing is all that's needed to get the most from the compressor and the spool speed is 20+psi by 3500rpms.

HX35-40 hybrid:

Keeping the long tradition of the marriage of sportcompact and hybrid turbos, there is the hx35 turbine and the hx40 compressor. It is strongly recommended to use the large bep turbine housing or the stock hx35 turbine housing with an non-divided t3 manifold for this turbo. The small bep housing around a t31 size hx35 turbine wheel is probably not enough to merit any of the hx40 compressor wheel upgrades. 20+ psi by 4000rpms can be seen in the hx35/40 with the hx35 12cm^2 turbine housing with a non-divided t3 manifold. With the large bep housing, spool times are to be determined. But likely similar.

HX40:

The 8blade hx40 has a 58mm inducer and flows about the same as a 60-1 (around 60lb/min) with ALOT better high boost efficiency and spool speed. It is the most common hx40 out there. The small bep housing with the hx40 turbine wheel is plenty to reach the full potential of the 60lb/min 8blade hx40 compressor. 20+ psi by 4100rpms with 272s.

The 7 and 6 blade hx40 is called the super40 and has the 60mm compressor inducer. This compressor flows around 69lb/min. You can get this wheel in billet style (think HTA). The non-billet wheel spools as fast as the 8blade hx40 in the bolton bep housing and has done 653whp at 40psi per the holset results only thread. Billet should spool even faster. The t3 .70 a/r BEP housing slows spool about 400rpms. But reports show a significant gain in flow per psi. So expect more power at lower boost with that turbine housing.

H1E/WH1E:

The Wh1e is like it's little brother the Wh1c. It mirrors the hx40 8blade in every way except that it has a v-band compressor cover and a 4bolt chra-turbinehousing pattern. It will consequently bolt into the hx40 bep bolton turbine housing and this is plenty of flow to max out its 60lb/min compressor.

The h1e is like it's little brother the h1c. There are different size compressors. . . BUT there are also different size turbine wheels too. Check measurements before buying this turbo if you plan on running a BEP turbine housing. There are lower flowing compressors than the 58mm 8blade that are out there. So this turbo may not flow any more than an hx35 if get the wrong one. You need at least a 58mm compressor inducer for this to be a worthwhile turbo vs the proven hx35 or 8blade hx40.

HX52:

This is a big sucker. It is commonly found on the Volvo Semis and usually has a billet compressor wheel. It flows 88lb/min. There is no bolt on housing for it. If you want a bolton housing for this turbo, then you don't want this turbo. In fact if you want a t3 flange turbine housing for this turbo, then you don't want this turbo. You DO want this turbo if you're looking at a gt4294r or gt4202r. The turbine inlet is slightly different than a t4 bolt pattern. You can still get the t4 manifold to work just fine by enlarging the bolt holes.

Misc.:
  • Holset's don't spool slow. They spool faster than their garrett or mitsubishi counterparts. Diesel exhaust is cold and slow moving.
  • The holset turbine wheel is a work of art. It has been shown to flow very well in a very small turbine housing. For example the hx40 turbine wheel in the small .55 ar bep bolton housing flows as much as a garrett gt35r turbine wheel in a larger .63 ar garrett t3 turbine housing. The hx40 with this configuration spools about 500rpms faster! You can upgrade to the .70 a/r BEP t3 turbine housing and have the same or slightly faster spool speed as the above gt35r with ALOT more flow per psi and consequently more horsepower per psi. This makes for VERY good pumpgas numbers.
  • Holset patented map width enhancement. They do not have extended tip technology, but there compressors show more efficiency than their garrett or mitsubishi counterpart.
  • They have superback technology witch leads to VERY, VERY durable compressors. The are designed to be overworked and underpaid.
  • There are discrepancies all over the web concerning the compressor maps. Take what you hear/read with a grain of salt and a shot of tequila, and the worm.
  • The holset is fine with stock 4g63 oil pressure from the oil filter housing. If you have no b shafts, you'll need a restrictor. The drain line is a garret bolt pattern. The feed line is different for different turbos.



Summary of compressor/turbine combinations provided by mod/wiseman, JusMX141:

HX35 Compressors:
50mm / 78mm 7-blade
52mm / 78mm 7-blade
54mm / 78mm 7-blade
54mm / 83mm 8-blade
56mm / 83mm 8-blade

Turbine: 70mm / 60mm


HX40:Compressors:

56mm / 86mm 6-blade (cast & billet)
60mm / 86mm 6-blade (cast & billet)
60mm / 86mm 7-blade (cast & billet)
58mm / 83mm 8-blade (cast & billet)
60mm / 83mm 8-blade

Turbine: 76mm / 64mm



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Last edited by Morphius; 05-18-2012 at 09:14 AM.

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Old 05-26-2010, 06:47 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #2 (permalink)
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Old 05-26-2010, 06:48 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #3 (permalink)
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Old 05-26-2010, 06:48 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #4 (permalink)
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Old 05-26-2010, 06:57 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #5 (permalink)
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Old 05-26-2010, 09:27 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #6 (permalink)
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Gooberlog, how is it running so far? What are your impressions?


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Old 05-26-2010, 10:08 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #7 (permalink)
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2G-specific

Full Twin Scroll HX35W Set-Up


I'm going to build a full twin scroll 7-blade HX35 set-up, and I have a choice of
using either a 12cm^2, 14cm^2 or 16cm^2 turbine housing.
This will be on a fully built 2.0L with a Curt Brown Spec 2g Head, JMF Drag SMIM and FP4R cams.
Max power is not what I'm looking for, but I would like to tune the car to run
500whp while Road Racing.

As it is now my TD05H 18g hits 20psi by 3800rpm, and that's barely enough.
2nd gear is too low for corner exit speed, so I have to brake, turn in and
floor it in 3rd to get any exit speed out of the corner while the turbo is spooling up.

I know a HX35 at 20psi is night and day difference than a measly 18g.

From reading the Holset threads, the HX35 with the stock divided 12cm^2 housing
and a non-divided exhaust manifold people see 20+ psi with a SMIM and 272's by 4k rpm.

I also read that a similarly modded 4G63 with a full twin scroll 12cm^2 set-up
should see 20+ psi by an estimated 31-3200 rpm.
My worry is that my top end power will suffer upwards of 7k rpm.

20+ psi in 3rd at 3200 rpm sounds perfect, but will the 12cm^2 turbine housing have enough flow up top to take
advantage of the Curt Brown Spec 2g Head, JMF Drag SMIM and FP4R cams that will compliment the set-up.

Here's a pic of what the housings look like.
And a pic of the HX35W that I picked up too.
The 12cm^2 housing is $100 cheaper than the 14cm^2.
There are only two 14cm^2 housings on the shelf, and supply is limited...
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Old 05-26-2010, 10:12 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #8 (permalink)
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Good god this is getting huge!

@DSM-ONSTER, have you put that turbo to use that I sent you yet?

Holset power has caused catastrophic failure on transmission number 3 last night , to bad the transmission is built as well as the engine in this darn thing


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Old 05-26-2010, 10:19 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joyfil2001 View Post
I would suggest you pull it out and do as you said. Use the yellow teflon tape and tighten it down again. I prefer to do this while the turbo is off the car because it makes it easier to tighten the fitting when nothing is in the way. As for the drain, get new gaskets and use RTV. I use RTV on both sides of the drain. No leaks anywhere.
I guess i'll look for the yellow teflon tape, i'll start at a auto store but sounds like i might have to swing by a plumbers shop. I thought i ordered the right oil drain gaskets from extremepsi when i ordered everything else, but they are different, luckily Justin included one when he sent my turbo back. I'm definitely doing both lines again with the turbo on the car. There may be less room there, but the struggle is a lot easier then taking the whole unit off. Does anyone know what gasket to order when buying one? I don't think extremepsi (my favorite place to order dsm parts from) sells one labeled for Holset HX35 or HX40??Is it the one for Garret Dual ball bearing turbos, i feel like it looked like this and i may have read this? ...EXTREME PSI : Your #1 Source for In Stock Performance Parts - Garrett GT Dual Ball Bearing Oil Drain Gasket

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsm-onster View Post
Gooberlog, how is it running so far? What are your impressions?
The car is running great. The first time i started it up in the garage, it sounded like i put cams in the car, cause i swapped in FIC 850's and the dsmlink was still set for 550's. As soon as i plugged in the 850cc injector setting and hit save to ecu, it smoothed right out. I had hooked up my MBC backwards at first glance and the first attempt to spool up, the boost gauge shot past 25psi. Got the MBC hooked up right, then proceeded to set the boost to around 20psi on pump gas. Had to add some fuel from my 14b race gas settings for fuel and timing that were still saved in dsmlink. A handful of 3rd gear pulls and me and 311GSX got it pulling pretty nice. Right now it feels like it is pulling ok, but you can tell it's just begging for more boost. I have all stock long block so until i get some ARPs the boost will have to stay low. Then i'll have to upgrade my ACT 2100, as I'm sure the higher boost levels on the HX35 are going to punish that clutch. I would like to drive it more to get a better feel for it, but first i have to seal up the oil feed and drain lines better as mentioned at the end of the Holset thread 7. As for spool up, i was seeing 20psi before 4000 RPM You would never imagine going from a 14b to a HX35 that spool wouldn't be a problem. So far, I love it, but i can't wait to push 25-30 psi.


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Old 05-26-2010, 11:01 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #10 (permalink)
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I got my gasket and drain fitting here.
Turbo Flanges & Gaskets, T6 / S400 Oil Drain Flange, RPS-T6ODF | RacePartSolutions.com

Here it is installed on my HX40 (Gasket is too wide and needed to be trimmed to fit)



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Old 05-26-2010, 11:16 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #11 (permalink)
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Yup thats where I got mine too. And it also needed to be trimmed.


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Old 05-26-2010, 12:03 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #12 (permalink)
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I mentioned at the end of Part 7 that my HX-35 came in. I called up Bullseye yesterday and ordered the bolt on housing. It is scheduled to be here tomorrow. I am going to order the Tial MVS Recirculating 02 housing from punishment soon. After this all that is left is to figure out my oiling situation. I posted in both oil threada about the drain and the feed. If anyone has some pics of how they set up there gauge at the turbo to check the pressure. I want to make sure my pressure is right and also that I get the right fittings. I have my b-shafts and oil squirters so I figure I'll probably be using a line from the OFH with a restrictor. Any input is welcome.

Last edited by tsiboostin; 05-26-2010 at 12:04 PM. Reason: fixed a sentence
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Old 05-26-2010, 01:04 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UGOT8UP View Post
@DSM-ONSTER, have you put that turbo to use that I sent you yet?
Please hold. Final/ultimate service will be given shortly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UGOT8UP View Post
Holset power has caused catastrophic failure on transmission number 3 last night , to bad the transmission is built as well as the engine in this darn thing
faster than typical spool speed from a relatively large turbo will do that sort of non-sense.


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Old 05-26-2010, 02:47 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #14 (permalink)
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Dyno challange: Here's your chance to claim fame within the Holset threads here. Hoping a couple others (wisemen?) or current holset users would help pony up some cash towards this. I'm willing to put up $20 towards a dyno pull(s) for a least one current Holset user on a second Garrett turbo setup. The Garrett turbo must be as close as possible blades/exhaust housing size to the Holset on the users car. Same car. Same tune. Same boost pressure. Different turbos. (ie dyno the Holset, swap to the Garrett, dyno the Garrett) You don't have to go for broke and blow it up running crazy boost levels.

Said user would also be responsible for having access to the Garrett setup. So, if you have such a turbo lying around and it matches up well in specs to the Holset, then you'd be a good candidate.


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Old 05-26-2010, 02:53 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #15 (permalink)
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What about housing size?. . . HUGE factor. Of course a bolton hx35 (even the 7blade) won't match a larger turbine housing fp3052 with the same perameters up to about choke likely. We all should know that. The critical area of each housing has been clearly illustrated. . . It's an apples to oranges comparison if you're looking at who has what differences; since turbine housings are more easily interchangeable and are definately a conntrolled perameter like boost and tune. So is it a compressor to compressor comparison? or a hotside to hotside comparison?


Edit: ninja editing FTW. . . With the housing size. . . I'll contribute $20.


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Old 05-26-2010, 03:01 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsm-onster View Post
What about housing size?. . . HUGE factor. Of course a bolton hx35 (even the 7blade) won't match a larger turbine housing fp3052 with the same perameters up to about choke likely. We all should know that. The critical area of each housing has been clearly illustrated. . . It's an apples to oranges comparison. If you're looking at who has what differences, since turbine housings are more easily interchangeable. So is it a compressor to compressor comparison? or a hotside to hotside comparison?
Right, I think I mentioned the exhaust housing size. There are users with non-bolt on housings. Not everyone is going to fit this challenge. Only a select few. It'll be up to that person to show exactly what will be run, so it can be clearly determined that it's going to be a decent comparison. The goal is to show, for two comparable turbos, what the performance difference is, if any.


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Old 05-26-2010, 03:33 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #17 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by LiQUiDx View Post
I got my gasket and drain fitting here.
Turbo Flanges & Gaskets, T6 / S400 Oil Drain Flange, RPS-T6ODF | RacePartSolutions.com

Here it is installed on my HX40 (Gasket is too wide and needed to be trimmed to fit)

Whats the rest of your oil drain setup look like? Post up some other threads if theres already some good info around. I am still trying to decide how i want to do mine.

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Old 05-26-2010, 03:59 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morphius View Post
Dyno challange: Here's your chance to claim fame within the Holset threads here. Hoping a couple others (wisemen?) or current holset users would help pony up some cash towards this. I'm willing to put up $20 towards a dyno pull(s) for a least one current Holset user on a second Garrett turbo setup. The Garrett turbo must be as close as possible blades/exhaust housing size to the Holset on the users car. Same car. Same tune. Same boost pressure. Different turbos. (ie dyno the Holset, swap to the Garrett, dyno the Garrett) You don't have to go for broke and blow it up running crazy boost levels.

Said user would also be responsible for having access to the Garrett setup. So, if you have such a turbo lying around and it matches up well in specs to the Holset, then you'd be a good candidate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsm-onster View Post
What about housing size?. . . HUGE factor. Of course a bolton hx35 (even the 7blade) won't match a larger turbine housing fp3052 with the same perameters up to about choke likely. We all should know that. The critical area of each housing has been clearly illustrated. . . It's an apples to oranges comparison if you're looking at who has what differences; since turbine housings are more easily interchangeable and are definately a conntrolled perameter like boost and tune. So is it a compressor to compressor comparison? or a hotside to hotside comparison?


Edit: ninja editing FTW. . . With the housing size. . . I'll contribute $20.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morphius View Post
Right, I think I mentioned the exhaust housing size. There are users with non-bolt on housings. Not everyone is going to fit this challenge. Only a select few. It'll be up to that person to show exactly what will be run, so it can be clearly determined that it's going to be a decent comparison. The goal is to show, for two comparable turbos, what the performance difference is, if any.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strm Trpr View Post
I'm going to build a full twin scroll 7-blade HX35 set-up, and I have a choice of
using either a 12cm^2, 14cm^2 or 16cm^2 turbine housing.
This will be on a fully built 2.0L with a Curt Brown Spec 2g Head, JMF Drag SMIM and FP4R cams.
Max power is not what I'm looking for, but I would like to tune the car to run
500whp while Road Racing.

As it is now my TD05H 18g hits 20psi by 3800rpm, and that's barely enough.
2nd gear is too low for corner exit speed, so I have to brake, turn in and
floor it in 3rd to get any exit speed out of the corner while the turbo is spooling up.

I know a HX35 at 20psi is night and day difference than a measly 18g.

From reading the Holset threads, the HX35 with the stock divided 12cm^2 housing
and a non-divided exhaust manifold people see 20+ psi with a SMIM and 272's by 4k rpm.

I also read that a similarly modded 4G63 with a full twin scroll 12cm^2 set-up
should see 20+ psi by an estimated 31-3200 rpm.
My worry is that my top end power will suffer upwards of 7k rpm.

20+ psi in 3rd at 3200 rpm sounds perfect, but will the 12cm^2 turbine housing have enough flow up top to take
advantage of the Curt Brown Spec 2g Head, JMF Drag SMIM and FP4R cams that will compliment the set-up.

Here's a pic of what the housings look like.
And a pic of the HX35W that I picked up too.
The 12cm^2 housing is $100 cheaper than the 14cm^2.
There are only two 14cm^2 housings on the shelf, and supply is limited...
Any help here choosing a Divided T3 Housing for my HX35?
I'm leaning real hard on the 14cm^2.


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Old 05-26-2010, 06:27 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #19 (permalink)
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Go for it if you're running a twinscroll manifold with a divider all the way to the gate, or two gates. It will spool very fast still IMHO.


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Old 05-26-2010, 07:53 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cooldude919 View Post
Whats the rest of your oil drain setup look like? Post up some other threads if theres already some good info around. I am still trying to decide how i want to do mine.

Right now, that's all I have besides a welded -12AN bung in the pan. I'm going to be picking up 2 45* swivel push-lok fittings to use and run some nylon hose. I've only been able to find the swivel push-loks on Ebay though and they are around $18 a pop.


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