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Turbo System Tech: 4G63 turbos, Intercooling, Boost Control, Wastegates, etc.

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Old 11-14-2007, 08:34 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #1 (permalink)
DSM Wiseman
 

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Holset Turbos, PART 3


Continue on..........

For more discussion history:
Link to Part 1 :
Holset Turbos

Link to Part 2:
Holset Turbos, PART 2

Link to Part 3:
Holset Turbos, PART 3

Link to Part 4:
Holset Turbos, PART 4

Link to Part 5:
Holset Turbos, PART 5

Link to Part 6:
Holset Turbos, PART 6

Link to Part 7:
Holset Turbos, PART 7

Link to Part 8:
Holset Turbos, PART 8

Link to Part 9:
Holset Turbos, PART 9


For Holset FAQ: (growing document and not finished)
Link to FAQ:
Holset Turbos, FAQ


For in vehicle results:
Link to Results Only:
Holset Turbos, RESULTS ONLY (COMPLETE INSTALLED SYSTEMS)

Link to HX-52 setup;
Holset Volvo HX-52 Dyno Sheets


For more specific component discussion:
Link to Holset Part #'s:
Holset Part # Thread Only!!!!

Link to Holset oil feed discussion:
Holset HX-35 Oiling
Garrett & Holset Turbo Users - Your Oil Drain May Be Too Small!

Link to Fake Holset Info:
Counterfeit Holset Turbos


Summary provided by wiseman, Dsm-onster:
HX35:

The 8blade hx35 has a 56mm compressor inducer. This is found on 1995-1998 cummins manual pickups. The compressor flows 52 lb/min according to the compressor map. The bolton BEP housing (0.55 a/r) is enough to push the limit of the compressor. There's several 500whp 8blade hx35 cars out there with the bolt on housing. It reaches 20+psi by 3500rpms in 3rd with 272 cams. Smaller cams would equal a faster spool speed in most cases.

The 7blade hx35 has a 56mm compressor inducer. This is found on the 1999-2002 cummins manual pickups. The compressor flows 60lb/min according to the compressor map and logged results from a member here. The bolton BEP housing with the hx35 turbine wheel do not SEAM to have enough flow to really reach the potential of 60lb/min. But many have logged over 50lb/min so far and seen 500whp. The stock hx35 12cm^2 twinscroll turbine housing is a t3 flange housing. This mated to a NON-divided runner manifold has produced a 132mph trap speed with a full weight 1g AWD. This is about 600whp. So the flow is there with the stock housing if you use a non-divided manifold. The spool speed of the 7blade hx35 is similar to the 8blade hx35 with 20+ psi by 3500rpms in the bolton housing and by 4000rpms with the stock housing with a non-divided manifold.

HY35:

The hy35 has a smaller turbine wheel than the hx35. And, it has a turbine housing connection that does not allow for a bolton housing to be used. It does not have a divided housing so any t3 manifold can be used effectively with this turbo. It has the same compressor as the 7blade hx35. We don't know if te hy35 turbine wheel and housing is enough to reache the 60lb/min potential of the 56mm 7blade compressor. Some one try it out already!!! It should at least be a faster spooling viable option to the full t3/t4 50-trim.

H1C/WH1C:

In 1994, there was the Wh1c which has pretty much the identical compressor as the hx35 but with a Vband compressor cover. The turbine wheel is the same. It will bolt into the BEP bolton hx35 turbine housing. It has 4 bolts at the housing instead of 6. So you will need to buy 2 more bolts and use 6 washers cut to make a flat side. Honestly, I just used bolts that were cut a little short and the bolt head was wide enough to pull the chra to the turbine housing. No sealing issues. Since the Wh1c is for all practical purposes an 8blade hx35 the spool and flow is the same too.

I have the big h1c. It comes on the INTERCOOLED 1991-1993 cummins pickups. It has the webbing for MWE but no groove cut like the hx35/wh1c has. This turbo I term the big h1c because it has a 54mm compressor inducer and same exducer than the 8blade hx35/Wh1c. The other h1c is the small h1c found on the NON-intercooled cummins pickups. This has a 50mm inducer but only 7blades and has no webbing for MWE. Less blades helps flow, but so does a larger inducer diameter. The most whp ever recorded on a gas 4cylinder with the small h1c was done on a KA24 nissan: 411whp. Since the big h1c has a 4mm larger inducer and the same turbine wheel as the hx35, it is safe to say that it flows enough for between 411whp and 500whp. The diesel sources state that it flows SLIGHTLY less than the early hx35. So 4lb/min less than the 8blade hx35 puts the flow of the big h1c at 48-49lb/min right where a 50-trim or 20g is. The small bep housing is all that's needed to get the most from the compressor and the spool speed is 20+psi by 3500rpms.

HX35-40 hybrid:

Keeping the long tradition of the marriage of sportcompact and hybrid turbos, there is the hx35 turbine and the hx40 compressor. It is strongly recommended to use the large bep turbine housing or the stock hx35 turbine housing with an non-divided t3 manifold for this turbo. The small bep housing around a t31 size hx35 turbine wheel is probably not enough to merit any of the hx40 compressor wheel upgrades. 20+ psi by 4000rpms can be seen in the hx35/40 with the hx35 12cm^2 turbine housing with a non-divided t3 manifold. With the large bep housing, spool times are to be determined. But likely similar.

HX40:

The 8blade hx40 has a 58mm inducer and flows about the same as a 60-1 (around 60lb/min) with ALOT better high boost efficiency and spool speed. It is the most common hx40 out there. The small bep housing with the hx40 turbine wheel is plenty to reach the full potential of the 60lb/min 8blade hx40 compressor. 20+ psi by 4100rpms with 272s.

The 7 and 6 blade hx40 is called the super40 and has the 60mm compressor inducer. This compressor flows around 69lb/min. You can get this wheel in billet style (think HTA). The non-billet wheel spools as fast as the 8blade hx40 in the bolton bep housing and has done 653whp at 40psi per the holset results only thread. Billet should spool even faster. The t3 .70 a/r BEP housing slows spool about 400rpms. But reports show a significant gain in flow per psi. So expect more power at lower boost with that turbine housing.

H1E/WH1E:

The Wh1e is like it's little brother the Wh1c. It mirrors the hx40 8blade in every way except that it has a v-band compressor cover and a 4bolt chra-turbinehousing pattern. It will consequently bolt into the hx40 bep bolton turbine housing and this is plenty of flow to max out its 60lb/min compressor.

The h1e is like it's little brother the h1c. There are different size compressors. . . BUT there are also different size turbine wheels too. Check measurements before buying this turbo if you plan on running a BEP turbine housing. There are lower flowing compressors than the 58mm 8blade that are out there. So this turbo may not flow any more than an hx35 if get the wrong one. You need at least a 58mm compressor inducer for this to be a worthwhile turbo vs the proven hx35 or 8blade hx40.

HX52:

This is a big sucker. It is commonly found on the Volvo Semis and usually has a billet compressor wheel. It flows 88lb/min. There is no bolt on housing for it. If you want a bolton housing for this turbo, then you don't want this turbo. In fact if you want a t3 flange turbine housing for this turbo, then you don't want this turbo. You DO want this turbo if you're looking at a gt4294r or gt4202r. The turbine inlet is slightly different than a t4 bolt pattern. You can still get the t4 manifold to work just fine by enlarging the bolt holes.

Misc.:
  • Holset's don't spool slow. They spool faster than their garrett or mitsubishi counterparts. Diesel exhaust is cold and slow moving.
  • The holset turbine wheel is a work of art. It has been shown to flow very well in a very small turbine housing. For example the hx40 turbine wheel in the small .55 ar bep bolton housing flows as much as a garrett gt35r turbine wheel in a larger .63 ar garrett t3 turbine housing. The hx40 with this configuration spools about 500rpms faster! You can upgrade to the .70 a/r BEP t3 turbine housing and have the same or slightly faster spool speed as the above gt35r with ALOT more flow per psi and consequently more horsepower per psi. This makes for VERY good pumpgas numbers.
  • Holset patented map width enhancement. They do not have extended tip technology, but there compressors show more efficiency than their garrett or mitsubishi counterpart.
  • They have superback technology witch leads to VERY, VERY durable compressors. The are designed to be overworked and underpaid.
  • There are discrepancies all over the web concerning the compressor maps. Take what you hear/read with a grain of salt and a shot of tequila, and the worm.
  • The holset is fine with stock 4g63 oil pressure from the oil filter housing. If you have no b shafts, you'll need a restrictor. The drain line is a garret bolt pattern. The feed line is different for different turbos.



Summary of compressor/turbine combinations provided by mod/wiseman, JusMX141:

HX35 Compressors:
50mm / 78mm 7-blade
52mm / 78mm 7-blade
54mm / 78mm 7-blade
54mm / 83mm 8-blade
56mm / 83mm 8-blade

Turbine: 70mm / 60mm


HX40:Compressors:

56mm / 86mm 6-blade (cast & billet)
60mm / 86mm 6-blade (cast & billet)
60mm / 86mm 7-blade (cast & billet)
58mm / 83mm 8-blade (cast & billet)
60mm / 83mm 8-blade

Turbine: 76mm / 64mm


Last edited by Morphius; 05-18-2012 at 09:25 AM.

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Old 12-09-2007, 02:49 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #2 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GORBS88 View Post
You have confused me here, sorry. You state that the 7 blade flows 55lbs/min but is within 3 of the 6 blade which is 57lbs. I thought that was within 2lbs? Or am i reading this wrong? Could you list the lbs/min for all three wheel options for the hx-40?
I am getting the pro 6 blade so i am assuming it flows 57lbs/min?
3-2. What' the big deal at this flow level ? 2lbs/min less is within 3 lbs/min of the 6 blade. The maps likely arn't exact. But the ballpark flows are very close. Again, this is assuming these compressor maps are arranged in the order I'm speculating.

Yes, you are only assuming that the pro wheel flows 57 lbs/min.


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Old 12-09-2007, 02:56 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsm-onster View Post
3-2. What' the big deal at this flow level ? 2lbs/min less is within 3 lbs/min of the 6 blade. The maps likely arn't exact. But the ballpark flows are very close. Again, this is assuming these compressor maps are arranged in the order I'm speculating.

Yes, you are only assuming that the pro wheel flows 57 lbs/min.
I'm not very good at reading the compressor maps so i will need to ask you some questions, I'm just curious about the 57lbs/min number? Is that a number that comes from holset or is that a number that you got from reading the maps??
You found out that the hx-35 flowed 51lbs/min so im just curious if there is anyway to be more certain?
Don't mind me if some of my questions are out of line. I just get real confused when i lookin at a comoressor map

thanx again
mike
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Old 12-09-2007, 02:59 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #4 (permalink)
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My understanding has always been is that a turbo with more compressor blades will be more efficient at lower boost levels, a compressor with fewer blades will be more efficient at higher boost. Now where the three variants of the hx-40 sit, I have no idea as there have been no official maps released by Holset that I have seen. What would be more important is what real world numbers are being produced from these turbos, as in part two of the thread, I have made 521 WHP at 28PSI on the BEP housing internally gated. So there is definitely more in it with an external gate, and even more potential with a larger a/r housing.
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Old 12-09-2007, 03:28 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GORBS88 View Post
I'm not very good at reading the compressor maps so i will need to ask you some questions, I'm just curious about the 57lbs/min number? Is that a number that comes from holset or is that a number that you got from reading the maps??
You found out that the hx-35 flowed 51lbs/min so im just curious if there is anyway to be more certain?
Don't mind me if some of my questions are out of line. I just get real confused when i lookin at a comoressor map

thanx again
mike
Here's the known hx40 maps:
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Old 12-09-2007, 03:29 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #6 (permalink)
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Here's the hx35 map:
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Old 12-09-2007, 04:40 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #7 (permalink)
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I'm looking at the two higher flowing hx40 maps. And there is no 127Krpms curve for the highest flowing map! How far would this map stretch if there were?!!! I can see quite enough over 60 lbs/min entirely possible at 127Krpms.


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Old 12-09-2007, 06:42 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsm-onster View Post
I'm looking at the two higher flowing hx40 maps. And there is no 127Krpms curve for the highest flowing map! How far would this map stretch if there were?!!! I can see quite enough over 60 lbs/min entirely possible at 127Krpms.
Ok, this is starting to make sense. thanx for all the help!!

I will advise when i get this hx-40 on, i will be going from bolt on hx-35 to bolt on hx-40 pro.
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Old 12-09-2007, 08:47 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #9 (permalink)
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I'm sorry for the cofusion. I've looked at those maps countless time and never payed attention to the rpms. The pro could very well flow 5-7 lbs/min more than the 7-blade.

The hx35 clearly pushes more volume than the 8-blade (if the small map is the 8 blade). The advantage the 8-blade has is that larger hx40 turbine. The lag probably isn't worth the more turbine flow, unless you're looking at as much pumpgas power as possible on an 'hx35 budget'.


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Old 12-09-2007, 11:39 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #10 (permalink)
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eBay Motors: Cummins HX40 diesel Holset turbocharger HX-40 T3 16 cm (item 260191799987 end time Dec-13-07 19:33:51 PST) so why dose it say preferred?
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Old 12-10-2007, 12:38 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #11 (permalink)
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The original add said 6 blade, I had to correct that seller and tell im the pic shows a 7 blde. He just happened to copy and paste the info from the 6 blade he did sell prior and then only chgd the 6 to a 7 after I e-mailed him. The 6 blade is the preferred setup.

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Old 12-10-2007, 10:03 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ceedawg View Post
The original add said 6 blade, I had to correct that seller and tell im the pic shows a 7 blde. He just happened to copy and paste the info from the 6 blade he did sell prior and then only chgd the 6 to a 7 after I e-mailed him. The 6 blade is the preferred setup.
I noticed that being a 7 blade when he still had it listed as a 6 blade too.


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Old 12-11-2007, 06:36 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #13 (permalink)
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Yes it's a modded BOV. Their is so much done to that car it's to much to list but it's powered by MSIIextra, built motor, DKS 272 cams, HX-35 in Bullseye TH. @ 26 PSI the 1G BOV is just the right size. No compressor stall . I wish I took more pics while I was building it but it wasn't my main concern. I wish I could find a HX52 compressor map. That is what I'm putting in my car to replace the HX35 this spring along with a new sequential injection & ignition MegaSquirt. Those pics where not even a finished product. I was testing stuff and still building wiring harness at that stage.

Matt I didn't see you mention that you have installed your Holset yet. ????


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Old 12-14-2007, 07:47 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maglin View Post
Yes it's a modded BOV. Their is so much done to that car it's to much to list but it's powered by MSIIextra, built motor, DKS 272 cams, HX-35 in Bullseye TH. @ 26 PSI the 1G BOV is just the right size. No compressor stall . I wish I took more pics while I was building it but it wasn't my main concern. I wish I could find a HX52 compressor map. That is what I'm putting in my car to replace the HX35 this spring along with a new sequential injection & ignition MegaSquirt. Those pics where not even a finished product. I was testing stuff and still building wiring harness at that stage.

Matt I didn't see you mention that you have installed your Holset yet. ????
Do you have any 1/8 or 1/4 times with this setup?
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Old 12-15-2007, 08:32 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #15 (permalink)
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I should have followed my mind and bought new from Bullseye at almost close to the price I bought this for including the price for rebuilding it(well a little more from Bullseye actually).

Like I said it sux buying a used turbo. Bought this HX40 pro used on Ebay 310.00. Told that it would not arrive DOA.

I get it and the compressor outlet is full of caked up oil. Upon further inspection ,I take off the TH and out poors all the dirty black oil from the middle of the center cartridge.

Definitely not wrth it at the price I bought it for and for the lie that was advertised. To rebuild I was quoted 310.00. That's 620.00 + shipping which includes the price of the turbo. I might as well have bought this thing new.

Just a heads up to you guys who like buying these things used. Unless you get one for 100.00 it's not worth it IMOP getting these things used.

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Old 12-15-2007, 09:31 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #16 (permalink)
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Many have gotten these turbos used from ebay and had no issues. It's a shame. But it's chance you take.


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Old 12-15-2007, 09:55 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #17 (permalink)
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Many have gotten these turbos used from ebay and had no issues. It's a shame. But it's chance you take.
Unless you pay less than 100.00. It's 100% still not worth it. Wish I knew the many u r talking about and we r on the same forum.

You never know how long the used turb will last and it will cost 300.00 to rebuild. Get it for less than 100.00 then its a deal. Pay more than that and you need to rebuild ,you basically got ripped one whether it's one month ,two months, or three month's down the road!

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Old 12-15-2007, 06:21 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #18 (permalink)
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Oh... Sorry to hear about the bad deal... You can almost be assured that most HX35's will be in decent shap used as most dodge guys just replace it with a HX40. 40's are a definite risk cause they have probably spent a lot of time @ 50+ PSI.

I wish I had some time slips for the new car. It's a buddies car and I don't think it will ever see a drag strip. The tranny is stock and he is to worried about blowing it up. PFT..

On a very good note finances are looking good to get my HX52 build done this spring. I have another $4K in parts I need to source, but it's looking very promising right now. And I definitely will have some 1/4 times for mine as long as I can find someone around here to build me a cage.


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Old 12-15-2007, 06:33 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #19 (permalink)
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Oh... Sorry to hear about the bad deal... You can almost be assured that most HX35's will be in decent shap used as most dodge guys just replace it with a HX40. 40's are a definite risk cause they have probably spent a lot of time @ 50+ PSI.

I wish I had some time slips for the new car. It's a buddies car and I don't think it will ever see a drag strip. The tranny is stock and he is to worried about blowing it up. PFT..

On a very good note finances are looking good to get my HX52 build done this spring. I have another $4K in parts I need to source, but it's looking very promising right now. And I definitely will have some 1/4 times for mine as long as I can find someone around here to build me a cage.
What will be the advantages and disadvantages of you going from an HX35 to this HX52?
And which turbine hsing do you intend on using? This I would assume will b a huge sized application compared to using an HX40.

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Old 12-15-2007, 10:17 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #20 (permalink)
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I would imagine that the bolt-on housing will be a joke for a turbo as big as the HX52, so he's probably going to use one of the stock T4 based housings. Advantage - more airflow and power. Disadvantage - spool. That's about all there is to say about going to a bigger turbo.


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John Barrett
2004 Dodge Ram 2500 CTD 325hp 600tq
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