Vibration and Steerin wheel shake..ideas???

[Pauly]

I'm getting a vibration and my steering wheel is shaking when im moving. Im thinking axel bearings? doesnt seem like a bent drive shaft to me but im new to awd. Anybody have any experience with this? thanks guys?

 

[DSM_Drew]

wheel alignment? bent rim? worn out tie rod or ball joint? get your steering/suspension inspected.

 

[Pauly]

ya ill do that once i get the time, doubt its a tie rod or ball joint. Definatly feels like somthing that rotating. Im going to run rim run out and see how bad they are. They look fine thow.
thanks

 

[steve]

Could be as simple as a wheel out of balance. We've had a few people posting lately who got snow stuck on the inside of the rim. That's all it takes to throw off the balance. Tie rods and ball joints allow the wheel to vibrate when then have slop in them even if the wheel is straight and in balance. This is because the wheels are neither exactly pointed straight (toe) or flat to the ground (camber) when properly aligned. If the tie rods or ball joints are worn they won't control the wheel and it will vibrate.

Steve

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by steve
Could be as simple as a wheel out of balance.
...
Steve

If this starts at 40 mph and is pretty pronounced by 45 mph wheel balance would be my vote. Look at your rims to see if their is a fresh outline of where a wheel weight was, then chances are it's been thrown or fallen off. If you scuffed a wheel or a nasty pot hole that to would explain the loss. Make sure they put a heat gun on the double stick foam balance tape for mags or that too will be lost in the cold weather.

They make wheel weights for pressed steel rims but they don't work very well on mags, you need to make sure the clip on is designed for a mag and not for steel wheels.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Pauly]

ya i no i work in a shop and am a ATP student, the mag weights have a longer claw and the stick on weights arent worth a damn, I'm still going to dynamic balance all 4 wheels just to insure, I dont think its balance thow its to pronounced and begins at about 20mph. Im going to take it in next week to cheek it out and run rim run out. Just wondering if anyone else had this problem and what there solution was. Im betting my money on axle bearings. Once its in the air ill be able to tell for sure. They only want 15$ for the bearings but 20$ for the grease seals figure that one out.
thanks again guys

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by Pauly
ya i no i work in a shop and am a ATP student,"

.....I don't know what ATP means.


"and the stick on weights arent worth a damn,..."

From the land of sports cars and mag wheels they work just fine if you use the roll foam tape and a heat gun. The heat expands the foam, the glue has better adhesion and then draws the weight down tight as it cools. Common sense says you must clean the dirt off the wheel first.

"...its to pronounced and begins at about 20mph."

Have you checked for a blister or tread bubble. Jack the car up and spin the wheel should be able to see if it has an egg.

"betting my money on axle bearings."

While you have it on your jack shake the top of the tire for play. Use the heel of your hand to hit the sidewall smartly (not as hard as you can), if you hear any clicks or a thump you may have a bad wheel bearing. When a front bearing gets bad they will make a pretty decent rumble which you cannot mistake. You can't do these tests with the radio blasting it's subtle and not everyone can hear the immediate sounds. It's somewhat like seeing the truckers kick the tires for they are listening for what they know means trouble. You can't do this with the wheel on the ground for the bearing is loaded too much. Some cars/tires are really sensitive to pressure but that 20 mph is more like an egg, tread or bad sidewall blister. I would not drive the car at highway speeds until you have at least confirmed the tire is not at fault.

"They only want 15$ for the bearings but 20$ for the grease seals figure that one out."

I hope they gave you the right price on those _front_ bearings. Last time a bought a FWD bearing for my Voyager it was $68 and because we were on the road I paid another $100 to have it installed. Those are sealed bearings so I'm thinking they quoted prices for rear tapered rollers of which you will need 2 for each side plus the seal. This is assuming it's not AWD.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Doug99RS]

Typically, a bad hub (bearing) won't cause a vibration like that. Most of the time they will cause a roaring noise that changes pitch with speed. Sometimes they cause a clunking noise. But that's less frequent. In the last 2-3 weeks I've seen 3-4 PT Cruisers with a vibration in the steering wheel around 40mph. They've all had one or more tires with noticeable wheel hop. The rims are true and the tires balance out. They've been properly balanced and rotated. They just are crappy goodyear tires. It sounds more like one of the things already mentioned.
Tires (out of balance, broken belts)
Wheels (out of balance, bent)
Or axle shaft wobble most noticeably felt on accelerations.

We're not talking about rotor pulsation right? I didn't see any mention of brake pedal input so I didn't think that was it.
Doug

 

[Pauly]

good point about the tire buldge.I dont have the car yet thats why i cant offer more info, i take delivary on sunday, Yes i no there axle bearings or roller bearings as your calling them, Not wheel bearings witch you had in the front of your Voyager witch were not serviceable and a hole new hub assemby had to be used. Althow actually most wheel bearings can be as long as both inner and outter races are in good shape. And its just strange to have axle bearings cost then grease seals but thatsjust me, O and for the stick on weights they are a pain when you have a limited amount of time you can waste, not to mention alot harded to get a good dynamic balance rather then just a static,
take care guys
thank again

o ya ATP is Automotive technicians Prepatory

 

[Pauly]

ya doug i am beleaving to want to source it towards the tires, Naw definatly not a warped rotor, no brake pulsation , got a real good pedal.
Im going to go in depth in the tires im thinking maybe even possible diagonal flat spoting now maybe even lack of rotation.
thanks again

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by Pauly
... I dont have the car yet thats why i cant offer more info, i take delivary on sunday,

Ahha, I see, picking our brains on a car you don't even own... Hmmm.

" Yes i no there axle bearings or roller bearings as your calling them,"

We haven't gotten to that chapter in the book yet eh?
Was it "tapered", "elliptical", or "roller"...

When the customer returns with a bill for a $5000 mag that you just scratched and dented with a hammer you might reconsider the heat gun.
In your favorite search engine plug in "bunny phillips"

To help you along.

http://www.leydonrestorations.com/Zwords/92PurSang/92pursang.html
The first set of hands are Bunny's, the second set are Joe's and the firewall I believe is my handy work c. 1965.

"o ya ATP is Automotive technicians Prepatory"

Not a DSM expert and sometimes miss AWD but then I guess NAISE-MM, SAE don't count. Ask the teach to explain the 4 weight method, no electricity needed.

Wouldn't it have been prudent to have required the seller to fix the shimmy before you take delivery??

When you get it on the alignment rack and find it needs $2000 in repairs so it doesn't dog track you won't feel quite so secure that you have all the answers. Not every shop you will ever work in has the $5,000 wheel balancer, what happens then...

I don't ever remember needing some trick machine to tell me what the wheel run out was on some car. Spend the $50 and buy yourself a decent dial indicator and you won't have to take the wheels off the car. Keep an open mind, don't believe all the claims some equipment mfg who has donated his products to the school tells you. Experience will tell you if it's a balance problem or something else.

 

[Pauly]

aaaa of corse I;m gonna pick your brains who would no the answer better then some one whos already had the problem eh? Not to mention the wise men on here eat sleep and live dsm;s(best cars ever produced I might add, well at least for poor people like me )
And for the wheel weights, well i live in ohio and we'll we dont have the best weather so by the chances that we do get nice rims in ya i'll spend the time on the stick on weights, but most of the time your dealing with steel or factory rims witch have a nice flange for the pound on's .
O and I'll agree that dsm's are complicated as hell and theres alot to learn, hence why we have the dsm freeks again(I love you guys, truthfully i do ) O and i didnt ask for it to be fixed at the time of purchase just because it's a good deal and the guys already taking a hit.
And for the dial indicator have one but the wheels are gonna be off so might as we'll use that 5,000$$ peace of machinery whale i can. Take care guys, you no its 16 damn degrees here whats with the weather its to cold to drive let alone to do anything else.

 

[Doug99RS]

I guess since it's a trade school you're not required to take grammar classes too.

 

[Pauly]

Nope, Im probley the worst speller on earth if thats even a word>?
peace

 

[fugmire]

A 300zx i drove once had same problem...happened around 40-60 mph. His drive shaft was fubar'd, so i suggest checking your drive shaft. It could need replacing, or if your lucky, it is just something that can be welded. The guy with the 300zx wasnt soo lucky, and cost him about 1200 dollars.

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by fugmire
A 300zx i drove once had same problem...happened around 40-60 mph. His drive shaft was fubar'd, so i suggest checking your drive shaft. It could need replacing, or if your lucky, it is just something that can be welded. The guy with the 300zx wasnt soo lucky, and cost him about 1200 dollars.

I don't think that's applicable, his complaint was steering wheel shimmy and a drive / prop shaft running down the tunnel wouldn't cause that sort of vibration. Yes, seat of pants, yes, gear shift, yes make your teeth chatter.

Hard to imagine spending $1200 on a drive shaft unless some rotating gears were trashed as well. Noting really to weld in making repairs for it has a replacable U-joint at each end. These were never weak points on the Z cars.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[steve]

Originally posted by GTM
I don't think that's applicable, his complaint was steering wheel shimmy and a drive / prop shaft running down the tunnel wouldn't cause that sort of vibration.

Once Pauly gets the car, and checks the basic balance, run out, and alignment, if he still has a problem checking the front half shafts for torn CV boots and slop might not be too far out of line. But, I think he will find the problem before he get's that far. Then again if the prior owner liked to launch the car the axles might be a good thing to check while it's on the lift.

Steve

 

[steve]

Originally posted by Pauly
They only want 15$ for the bearings but 20$ for the grease seals figure that one out.
thanks again guys

Just for grins, I pulled the part numbers out of CAPS and checked Conicelli for prices (25% off list)

MB573309 Inner Oil Seal $7.76 each
MB303865 Annular Contact Ball Bearing $35.45 each
MB303875 Outer Oil Seal $4.37 each

Steve

 

[Pauly]

cool thanks everyone, its like the wheel shakes when you let it go. Like maybe a 1/4 inch each way. I dunno time will tell

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by steve
Just for grins, I pulled the part numbers out of CAPS and checked Conicelli for prices (25% off list)
MB573309 Inner Oil Seal $7.76 each
MB303865 Annular Contact Ball Bearing $35.45 each
MB303875 Outer Oil Seal $4.37 each
Steve

Yup, those prices sound more realistic for front axles.

I've looked everywhere in the '90 factory manual and find nothing for rear wheel bearings on a 2wd. There is a drawing of the rear rotor showing the nut and washer with the spindle sketched behind but that's as close as it gets.

I wouldn't think these (2wd) to be the same as the AWD since the loads don't involve propulsion or steering. An alternative bearing offering less rolling friction is the eleptical with a split inner race but disadvantage is they require maintenance since the preload has to be adjusted more precisely. The manufacturing cost is probably 2x-3x more than the ball or roller but will take significant thrust loads thus if you live in the mountains or road track race these would be a better choice.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[92LaserAWDTurbo]

Yeah, I have that problem too--been thinkin it's the balance. But it shakes a little more roughly when I slightly turn right. Any thoughts guys? Could it be a CV joint? Probably should make my own post for this, but only need a second or third opinion--thanks.

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by 92LaserAWDTurbo
Yeah, I have that problem too--been thinkin it's the balance. But it shakes a little more roughly when I slightly turn right. Any thoughts guys? Could it be a CV joint? Probably should make my own post for this, but only need a second or third opinion--thanks.

Ok.
Second opinion??

All spoofing aside, what have you done so far besides mutter under your breath?

Off the top increase in vibration on right turns would suggest left front wheel and the converse on left turns. We are talking gentle curves at 45 mph, not white knuckle driving. You need to check for wheels being round and running true.

Jack the car up, get a cardboard box placed to the side and a yard stick on top of that which points to the side of the tire. Rotate tire by hand and see what the run-out is by making a mark on the cardboard box at say the 12" or 18" interval. Mark the tire where the yardstick is touching then
rotate and find the extremes from that position. If it's more than 1/8" I'd look for that cause, look for bulges in the sidewall and on the tread.

Repeat the process on the other side and then swap the L&R wheels and road test. If you still have vibration but it's now on the opposite side then find a good tire balancer. You would be really lucky if the shop sells real road racing wheels and have skilled people who know how to operate the equipment.
.........

As for the CV joint these are usually first discovered at extreme steering ends while parking and not during gentle turns at speed.

Alignment (caster & camber) can contribute to an exaggerated shimmy so you might find you have other work to do.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[92LaserAWDTurbo]

Thanks, I really appreciate it.

And as far as the muttering--that's what I'll be doing for a while until I get to know more about DSMs. Still new to the whole thing, but slowly catchin on.