The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[Phil1320]

Guys/Gals? Just wanted to start up new thread for an OPEN 14b Drag Race Discussion. The "history" thread seems to be heading in this direction, and as much as I enjoy talking 14b, I meant for that thread to be DSM-wide rather than focus on one bracket. So, let's do it! Anything 14b: history, specs, stats, set-ups, people, timeslips, ET, MPH, suspension set-ups, and on and on....

Ok, I'll throw the first lines out there:

I would say Marc Hallman was the first guy to gain notoriety for 1/4 mile ET on the stock turbo. It read 12.57@109 in Turbo Magazine, but as we saw Jose(ArticTSi0 throw up that list of ETs from that shootout in '95 I think, it was [email protected], to be correct. I say, the stock turbo interest starts there, everyone agree?

14b power.....underestimated is an understatement

 

[habitatguy187]

Anyone know the fwd 14b record?

 

[99gst_racer]

Anyone know the fwd 14b record?

That would be Joe Bucci in his FWD Laser.
It's been the fastest 14B car period, thus far.

14b record: 10.841 @ 126.63
14b with Nitrous record: 10.610 @ 131.79

 

[sleepyvr4]

my Galant Vr4 14b record still stands...

sleepyvr4 - 3 1/2 years ago

DSM 1/4 Mile Times - 14b

DSMTimes.org - Home

stock suspension and winter treads - w/o launch control.

should be easy to kill in a car weighing a thousand pounds less ...

 

[Gooberlog]

This thread is overdue, and as much 14b chat Phil does, i'm surprised he held
off this long! Well down to business. About five min ago i found my old slips while searching to update the 14b list as Phil requested in another thread and it was as follows.
My old car 1993 TSI AWD 5speed 14b stats:
March 2004 @ Capitol Raceway Crofton, MD
60': 1.687(one of my better ones but not my best)
1/8 E/T: 7.871
1/8 mph: 87.08
1/4 E/T: 12.422
1/4 mph:108.06
Mods:
Engine: Stock '93 7bolt with 150,000 original miles
Trans: Stock 5 speed with ACT 2100
Fuel: RC 550cc injectors with 2g maf & Wally 255 HP pump
Exhaust: ported 2G mani, ported7cm turbine, 2.5" turboback
Intake: Dejon air intake w/ K&N
Intercooler: Supra Sidemount with 2 1/4" piping
Suspension: Eibach Prokit, KYB GR2 front struts and KYB AGX rear shocks
Tuning: Pocketlogger and SAFC
Fuel: 100oct, 112oct & C16 @18-24 psi

My current 1992 Laser RS-T AWD 5speed 14b stats:
November 2009 @ Mason Dixon Dragway Hagerstown, MD
60': 1.920 (spinning bad due to unavoidable wet box)
1/8 E/T: 8.224
1/8 mph: 85.99
1/4 E/T: 12.699
1/4 mph: 110.44
Mods:
Engine: Stock '92 6bolt with 107,000 miles and 100-110 psi across the board
Trans: rebuilt stock trans from 91 awd dsm with ACT2100
Fuel: 550cc injectors with 2G maf, wally 255 HP pump
Exhaust: ported 2g exhaust mani, ported 7cm turbine, 3" turboback
Intake: Dejon air intake w/ K&N
Intercooler: Punishement racing FMIC kit with 2.5" piping
Suspension: stock
Tuning: NONE
Fuel: C16 or 112 at 18-22psi

 

[Phil1320]

my Galant Vr4 14b record still stands...

sleepyvr4 - 3 1/2 years ago

DSM 1/4 Mile Times - 14b

DSMTimes.org - Home

stock suspension and winter treads - w/o launch control.

should be easy to kill in a car weighing a thousand pounds less ...

12.3 in the VR4 is movin......

This thread is overdue, and as much 14b chat Phil does, i'm surprised he held
off this long! Well down to business. About five min ago i found my old slips while searching to update the 14b list as Phil requested in another thread and it was as follows.
My old car 1993 TSI AWD 5speed 14b stats:
March 2004 @ Capitol Raceway Crofton, MD
60': 1.687(one of my better ones but not my best)
1/8 E/T: 7.871
1/8 mph: 87.08
1/4 E/T: 12.422
1/4 mph:108.06
Mods:
Engine: Stock '93 7bolt with 150,000 original miles
Trans: Stock 5 speed with ACT 2100
Fuel: RC 550cc injectors with 2g maf & Wally 255 HP pump
Exhaust: ported 2G mani, ported7cm turbine, 2.5" turboback
Intake: Dejon air intake w/ K&N
Intercooler: Supra Sidemount with 2 1/4" piping
Suspension: Eibach Prokit, KYB GR2 front struts and KYB AGX rear shocks
Tuning: Pocketlogger and SAFC
Fuel: 100oct, 112oct & C16 @18-24 psi

My current 1992 Laser RS-T AWD 5speed 14b stats:
November 2009 @ Mason Dixon Dragway Hagerstown, MD
60': 1.920 (spinning bad due to unavoidable wet box)
1/8 E/T: 8.224
1/8 mph: 85.99
1/4 E/T: 12.699
1/4 mph: 110.44
Mods:
Engine: Stock '92 6bolt with 107,000 miles and 100-110 psi across the board
Trans: rebuilt stock trans from 91 awd dsm with ACT2100
Fuel: 550cc injectors with 2G maf, wally 255 HP pump
Exhaust: ported 2g exhaust mani, ported 7cm turbine, 3" turboback
Intake: Dejon air intake w/ K&N
Intercooler: Punishement racing FMIC kit with 2.5" piping
Suspension: stock
Tuning: NONE
Fuel: C16 or 112 at 18-22psi

Awesome! Let's see if you get another chance this year....I think we should add your laser to the list though as that's the car you'll be furthering with.....even if it's the 12.69 for this year.........

 

[spoonman]

This is the set up that I will be running for the 2010 season.

Engine
9:1 Wiseco Pistons
Crower Steel Rods
Eagle 100mm Crank
Kiggly Main Girdle
Head Work/Porting
Kiggly Valve Springs
FP 3 Camshafts
Standard ARP's

Piston to Head Clearance = .04
Piston to Wall Clearance = .0055
Ring Gaps = .018
= .019

Drivetrain
AWD Auto/AWD MT Differential Swap
Road Surge Shift Box
Stock converter and axles
Bogart wheels with 24x10.5 M/T slicks

Engine Management
All AEM

Fuel
Aeromotive Atomic Mechanical
Injectors ???

And every little thing in between.

Race weight is predicted at 2500 LBS, but the goal is as light as possible.
The boost pressure should be kept around 21 PSI, We may raise the pressure but at that point the compressor is flowing the most air possible and higher pressures will just be heating the air with out flowing more air to make it worth while.

 

[Gooberlog]

12.3 in the VR4 is movin......



Awesome! Let's see if you get another chance this year....I think we should add your laser to the list though as that's the car you'll be furthering with.....even if it's the 12.69 for this year.........

Well i guess lets see what happens on Sunday and if i better the 12.42 than we will forget about that time. If not hmm, faster is always better. I could use the 12.42 i did back in march of 2004 and then update it once the laser beats that time.

 

[SBstar]

It's funny how the 14b "quests" used to be all about budget. Not anymore! It's amazing to see a mod list like the one above going into a 14b setup. I'd love to list a bit about my old 14b car, but unfortunately it never made it to the strip so I'll list the most current.

1990 Eagle Talon TSI AWD
Approx 150lbs of weight loss (give or take)
Ported SBR cast manifold (1st generation)
14b w/7cm ported turbine housing
Custom 2.5" O2 housing (open dump)
3" punishment downpipe - VRS 3" test - 3" megan catback
Stock SMIC w/stock piping
stock 6 bolt motor
Buschur MBC set at 14psi
Stock gst 5 spokes and cruddy all seasons
stock suspension/bushings/motor mounts minus GR-2 front struts
Walbro 255lph hp pump
custom hard intake pipe w/hacked 1g maf & K&N filter
SuperSecret Built transmission (double syncroes, welded diff, etc)
ACT 2600 w/stock flywheel

Met my goal this year of just making it to the drag strip and getting a 13 second pass (setup described as above) details:
1.811 60ft
8.238 1/8 ET
86.20 1/8 mph
13.614 1/4 ET
93.37 1/4 mph

I missed 4th gear on that pass.

The next pass I blew the oil line off my gauge and spun a bearing in the bottom end.

2010 Plans/Goals
Replace the bearings and probably crank. If other things look bad probably 2g pistons going in.
DSMLink V2.5 (already purchased)
Approx 21psi
a whole lot more track time
Diet plan

Wish list for 2010
Motor mounts
some new bushings (rear subframe and mustache are a must)
FMIC (I have an evo fmic standing by, would have to fab piping)
Wideband and injectors for E-85

GOALS:
Breaking into the 12's will be the first goal, should be easy enough if I can get it to the track in running order. The next goal (if not broken) will be 12.5 or better. The major goal for the car is to break the 11 second barrier keeping it on the budget mindset I have. If I get there, I might make a run at mid 11's eventually.

 

[Gooberlog]

SBstar, i saw you picked up LINK and before that you said you were running a hacked 1g maf. I'm not sure what all dsmlink can do to help but, i know around 16+ psi on the hacked 1g maf i would hit fuel cut and that is when i had to swap in the 2g maf and 550 injectors. If your planning on running E-85 though i'm sure your injectors will be 1000cc or larger so maybe when your fabbing up some IC pipes for the EVO FMIC you could plan to run a 3" GM maf and get the cable from dsmlink so that you don't have to buy a translator for it. Just a couple ideas to consider for the next set up on the car. Depending on weather you ran the GM maf (if you went that route)in the UICP or the air intake would also determine what style air intake you switched to. Good luck. Weight reduction is key!

 

[SBstar]

SBstar, i saw you picked up LINK and before that you said you were running a hacked 1g maf. I'm not sure what all dsmlink can do to help but, i know around 16+ psi on the hacked 1g maf i would hit fuel cut and that is when i had to swap in the 2g maf and 550 injectors. If your planning on running E-85 though i'm sure your injectors will be 1000cc or larger so maybe when your fabbing up some IC pipes for the EVO FMIC you could plan to run a 3" GM maf and get the cable from dsmlink so that you don't have to buy a translator for it. Just a couple ideas to consider for the next set up on the car. Depending on weather you ran the GM maf (if you went that route)in the UICP or the air intake would also determine what style air intake you switched to. Good luck. Weight reduction is key!

Kind of forgot to add that I plan to put in a 2g maf for 2010. The plan is to upgrade to V3 and run speed density after that. I've been down the weight reduction road before, check out the tech articles .

 

[bullettdsm]

Engine
9:1 Wiseco Pistons
Crower Steel Rods
Eagle 100mm Crank
Kiggly Main Girdle
Head Work/Porting
Kiggly Valve Springs
FP 3 Camshafts
Standard ARP's

Piston to Head Clearance = .04
Piston to Wall Clearance = .0055
Ring Gaps = .018
= .019

.

Well, since you posted it up there, is that a Wiseco thing? I find that number to be huge. Seems like slap city.

MB

 

[Phil1320]

Well i guess lets see what happens on Sunday and if i better the 12.42 than we will forget about that time. If not hmm, faster is always better. I could use the 12.42 i did back in march of 2004 and then update it once the laser beats that time.

If you use the 12.42, I would list it under your Laser, just because of the way he has the list set up. It will make it easier to update next year......if you don't beat it this year, I bet you're closer than 12.69......

It's funny how the 14b "quests" used to be all about budget. Not anymore! It's amazing to see a mod list like the one above going into a 14b setup.

GOALS:
Breaking into the 12's will be the first goal, should be easy enough if I can get it to the track in running order. The next goal (if not broken) will be 12.5 or better. The major goal for the car is to break the 11 second barrier keeping it on the budget mindset I have. If I get there, I might make a run at mid 11's eventually.

Yeah, that's a pretty big mod list to say the least. I don't even know what to reply to it. It seems like a build list for a 42R or something. Yes, I agree it's no budget build. Hey, whatever works I guess. I will still take the budget approach, although I've added some parts over the years that were not exactly, "cheap." But, I do it over a long period of time. To be able to just lay it all on the table in one shot like that is crazy. I've enjoyed the gradual progression over the years and I like to see that on paper. None of that is happening for guys like the above. I believe a serious set-up like that is what it will take to even come close to beating Joe's 10.84 record though. English Racing went 10.6 in an AUTO 16G powered car with meth I'm pretty sure, so they still have their work cut out. With mods like that, the car better RUN. I wish them all luck.....I see what type of mods they've got, I'm sure all the other "contenders" will be running similar set-ups, so we'll see. Running methanol brings a whole new segment to it.

I'm sure you'll hit your goals next year. You had a failure unfortunately, it was out of your hands. Once your beast is reliable again, you will improve quickly I'm sure. No doubt you'll be able to hit 11's......the budget way.....

Anyway.......I'll just keep chipping away adding a bit here and a bit there as I always have. No matter what all the others do, I'll never be able to act immediately with such big set ups, nor do I think I'm interested in that for myself.

 

[SBstar]

I'm sure you'll hit your goals next year. You had a failure unfortunately, it was out of your hands. Once your beast is reliable again, you will improve quickly I'm sure. No doubt you'll be able to hit 11's......the budget way.....

Anyway.......I'll just keep chipping away adding a bit here and a bit there as I always have. No matter what all the others do, I'll never be able to act immediately with such big set ups, nor do I think I'm interested in that for myself.

Yeah, I learned my lesson about the stock line that comes with oil pressure gauges though So I guess I do consider it my fault. From watching what you've done I know 11's will be possible over time, chipping away at it as you say. I guess to me it's nice to see that progression. I'd love to be able to just drop a ton of money on it and take off gunning for a record, but for guys like us, it'll be that slow progression towards the ultimate goal. The positive thing is we'll be around long after those guys are gone. Or at least I think we've proven we will be. No offense to them of course, they'll move onto bigger more powerful setups.

 

[Nate Crisman]

If/when I get back into this fray, it's going to be the old school budget way. Not to say that you can get the record back with a $1500 mod list, but IMHO you certainly don't need a built race motor and giant cams to work with a turbo that's out of steam by 6000rpm to barely make 300hp.

When I get started, Im going to do a full budget breakdown again just like I did for the $2004 GRM race. It also will be going along the build blog like project goodwill.

I'm anticipating it being all used parts on a stock engine. Swap my nitrous kit & hoosiers from my GVR4.

As for the trans: stock manual dsm tranny w/ welded diff and stock 4bolt rear. I'm not sure how the auto guys are going to get 1.4's out of an auto AND make an extra 40-50hp to make up for the extra weight and power loss. At this wimpy 14b power level I just can't see any driveline breakage or shifting speed/spool efficiency gain being worth it.

 

[habitatguy187]

Does anyone have a working link to project goodwill? Everytime I google it all the links are dead.

 

[99gst_racer]

Does anyone have a working link to project goodwill? Everytime I google it all the links are dead.

Goodwill1

 

[habitatguy187]

^^^ Thanks Paul.

 

[Phil1320]

Yeah, I learned my lesson about the stock line that comes with oil pressure gauges though So I guess I do consider it my fault. From watching what you've done I know 11's will be possible over time, chipping away at it as you say. I guess to me it's nice to see that progression. I'd love to be able to just drop a ton of money on it and take off gunning for a record, but for guys like us, it'll be that slow progression towards the ultimate goal. The positive thing is we'll be around long after those guys are gone. Or at least I think we've proven we will be. No offense to them of course, they'll move onto bigger more powerful setups.

Don't be too hard on yourself, just move toward the future! Yeah, I'd imagine we will be around long after they've done what they want to in this arena.

If/when I get back into this fray, it's going to be the old school budget way. Not to say that you can get the record back with a $1500 mod list, but IMHO you certainly don't need a built race motor and giant cams to work with a turbo that's out of steam by 6000rpm to barely make 300hp.

When I get started, Im going to do a full budget breakdown again just like I did for the $2004 GRM race. It also will be going along the build blog like project goodwill.

I'm anticipating it being all used parts on a stock engine. Swap my nitrous kit & hoosiers from my GVR4.

As for the trans: stock manual dsm tranny w/ welded diff and stock 4bolt rear. I'm not sure how the auto guys are going to get 1.4's out of an auto AND make an extra 40-50hp to make up for the extra weight and power loss. At this wimpy 14b power level I just can't see any driveline breakage or shifting speed/spool efficiency gain being worth it.

I assumed that would be the route you'd take and that should be enough. I'm not sure about the AUTO trans stuff either, but I don't know much about them anyway and don't care to. I've always been about driving, deciding when I'm going to shift, not some damn computer. Hell, that's why it took me so long to put a chip in with the stutterbox. I never wanted any computer aids helping me. For sure, the stutterbox worked, and if I was competing, for sure, I'd want it no doubt, but, it's not neccesary to run fast. It's biggest selling point for me was the ability to build boost on the line. I've always been able to hold RPM no problem on the line though. If there are guys out there shifting their cars to better ET's than auto cars are with similar set-ups, then I don't see the point. Not to mention the runs look pretty uneventful minus the launch, and the sound is not the same. BUT, if these guys make it work, then props to them, if they are cool with a computer shifting the car instead of them. I say, anyone can push a throttle pedal to the floor and hang on, there's no skill involved, at all. Shifting properly, and at the right time, is a different story. I realize some cars rev so fast that a shift light is needed, but the driver is still responsible for making it happen.

 

[Gooberlog]

You know Phil i feel the same way about this when i talk to my buddy that races his Grand National. I tell him he mine as well go get a cup of coffee to enjoy at the track while he does his stab and steer run.

 

[Phil1320]

You know Phil i feel the same way about this when i talk to my buddy that races his Grand National. I tell him he mine as well go get a cup of coffee to enjoy at the track while he does his stab and steer run.

I understand it all from a breakage standpoint I suppose, but, not for much else. We have local guys pulling Manual Trannies out of their '03 Mustang Cobras.....ruining the car in my opinion.

Everyone has their own route and that's cool. I'd like to see what the AT cars will do. But, Nate had a point about how much power they soak up, I wasn't even thinking about it in that respect.

I guess one thing I look forward to at the strip is being able to shift gears, that's all......you know I like the roadracing stuff as well, and not that you can't roadrace an AT car, but, it's the downshifting and rev matching that I love to become more proficient at. Now, not that I wouldn't like to have a new GTR to run the roadcourse in, but, again, it's rev matching downshifts for you. It's just getting away from the fundamentals of driving that I enjoy.

But, we are here talking about running record 14b timeslips, in the end, it doesn't matter how you get there, it just matters how quick you did, I suppose.WTF

This is the set up that I will be running for the 2010 season.

Engine
9:1 Wiseco Pistons
Crower Steel Rods
Eagle 100mm Crank
Kiggly Main Girdle
Head Work/Porting
Kiggly Valve Springs
FP 3 Camshafts
Standard ARP's

Piston to Head Clearance = .04
Piston to Wall Clearance = .0055
Ring Gaps = .018
= .019

Drivetrain
AWD Auto/AWD MT Differential Swap
Road Surge Shift Box
Stock converter and axles
Bogart wheels with 24x10.5 M/T slicks

Engine Management
All AEM

Fuel
Aeromotive Atomic Mechanical
Injectors ???

And every little thing in between.

Race weight is predicted at 2500 LBS, but the goal is as light as possible.
The boost pressure should be kept around 21 PSI, We may raise the pressure but at that point the compressor is flowing the most air possible and higher pressures will just be heating the air with out flowing more air to make it worth while.

When I first saw your mod list here, I didn't even know what to say. I kinda still don't It looks like it should run. Some of it is gibberish to me, but that's ok, I don't need to understand it all, your specs I mean. I would imagine with the AEM you should be able to extract maximum HP from your set up. Race weight of 2500 is definitely doable, depending on the weight of the driver of course. FP3 cams huh? I don't think the need for all you listed is there, so this is a build with ONLY the 14b in mind? Eagle Crank?

I wish you luck and am very interested in seeing what you can do.

I must say though, if Joe Bucci's Laser is/was Project Goodwill, your car must be dubbed, Project Overkill

All jokes aside, I hope you can hit your goal!

 

[spoonman]

Well, since you posted it up there, is that a Wiseco thing? I find that number to be huge. Seems like slap city.

MB

You are right the clearance is pretty loose for the application, the engine was being built to run much higher HP numbers. I have found that Wiseco's like to run a little loose though (when compared to other pistons). One thing to note is that the pistons I am using are "stroker" pistons and I usually recommend a tighter clearance when using these pistons due to, the shorter skirts and the higher side loads.

There are many of variables that were taken into account for the P2W clearance in this engine (Fuel used, Cylinder wall thickness, Rod Ratio). From my experience the clearance will work just fine but I will not know 100% intill I tear down the engine for evaluation after the racing season.






Yeah Phil the car can be viewed as a little extreme because most 14b applications are based on going fast for cheap, but I want to literally demolish the current 14b record. I tell customers who want their engines built that it has to be all out or not at all, no cheap parts, replace everything. We will be doing a lot testing and experimenting with different camshafts and heads this season. We hope to get it damn near perfect by the ShootOut, we really want to wait to reveal our best time when we are at the SO and make some runs to back up the time.

 

[pneumo]

Nate, I definately applaud your goal to attempt a record run on a budget. That's how I started with my Talon when I first got it.

I bought my Talon used in 2002. It was bone stock, no mods at all. I was making payments on it so I couldn't afford to mod it much, but I had 'boost fever' really bad. The short story is that I ran 12.89 @108 just four months after I got it, and it had about $750 worth of mods on it. Even better, I just happen to line up against and killed one of the new (at the time) 2003 Cobras on that run, and those came with a supercharger and 390HP, one of the hottest cars at the time.

I did as many free mods as I could since I couldn't buy much, and even made up a few new free mods. The first time I hit 12's the car had a used 3" exhaust with a 3" cat, Hallman MBC @ 21psi, KN filter, no aircan, hacked maf, home depot 3" intake, used Denso 190 pump, NT FPR that was crushed to hold a few extra psi, $20 worth of race gas, used ACT2600, pocketlogger, some weight reduction (rear seats, spare, jack, tools), and self ported ex mani-turbo-O2 housing. Stock smic, stock injectors, stock phantom-knocking-to-death engine, stock suspension and mismatched tires on stock rims. Jeez I've come a long way since then!

Tom Stangl (Mr. VFAQ) was a major source of inspiration for me at the time. He lived nearby and told me about his quest to a 12 second timeslip. It was a long time ago, but I remember that he had even less mods than me, partly because his car was still newish and still had the stock clutch and a good fuel pump, and he touched a 12.99. I was amazed! To hit 12's on a car that was still considered 'stock'!

It's more of a challenge to go fast on a tight budget, but it's also suprising how creative you can get when your faced with those restrictions. And creativity can make a car go faster than buying expensive parts.

 

[SBstar]

It's more of a challenge to go fast on a tight budget, but it's also suprising how creative you can get when your faced with those restrictions. And creativity can make a car go faster than buying expensive parts.

Quote of the 14b thread!

Pneumo your car is a source of amazement for me as well, hitting 11's with so many parts left stock is bewildering. I still have the photo's you posted of the engine bay from back then. I try to save all that kind of stuff. Overall I think your car truly showed how much can be done through tuning properly.

 

[pneumo]

Quote of the 14b thread!

Pneumo your car is a source of amazement for me as well, hitting 11's with so many parts left stock is bewildering. I still have the photo's you posted of the engine bay from back then. I try to save all that kind of stuff. Overall I think your car truly showed how much can be done through tuning properly.

Thanks! I'm still amazed too! I hit 11.69 with stock injectors, stock intercooler, stock IC piping, and other stuff. I'm sure if I pushed it I could've dropped the time a little more with those mods, but I had upgrades sitting on the shelf and the season was coming to an end, so I swapped those parts right after the 11.69 run.