The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[pneumo]

How many of you plan on running e85? And what's the most boost you guys run on your 14B's? Also anyone thought of clipping the turbine wheel ever so slightly? I could see a clipped wheel coupled with a cyclone IM doing some good.

I ran 23 psi, but it still dropped off above 5500rpm. I even used an electronic solenoid to cut off the MBC above 5700rpm and boost still dropped off.

It's difficult to theorize if other mods will add power since boost will just drop off quicker.

 

[habitatguy187]

I've talked with alot of people about the cyclone intakes as well. Seems from what I've read is that most people believe they get more torque down low, but after the butterfly's open it's essentially about the same as a 1g manifold, so again I can't see any real benefits considering what kind of torque these small setups are already making down low.

Well I suggested the cyclone intake to help ward off the extra turbo lag that comes with clipping the turbine wheel.

 

[SBstar]

I ran 23 psi, but it still dropped off above 5500rpm. I even used an electronic solenoid to cut off the MBC above 5700rpm and boost still dropped off.

It's difficult to theorize if other mods will add power since boost will just drop off quicker.

Exactly! I think you're making power up top off the other mods you have such as the SMIM, cams, built motor, rather then the 14b being efficient and making power up there. There comes a point when the engine is making more power, therefore the setup is making good power. If Phil took his car to 8k he'd be running much slower, whereas you layed down awesome times shifting near 8k due to the extra mods! It's tough to say if having the engine make more power up top to sort of "make up" for the 14b running out of air is better, or matching everything to the 14b and keeping the rev's lower. Personally my setup will be looking at the latter, trying to match everything for that power under 6500rpms, keeping the 14b happy down there.

I get your idea on the cyclone and think it may be a good one. That's the great thing about chasing good times with small turbo's, there are a million configurations to think up!

 

[pneumo]

That's a good direction to take. The tranny can also shift quicker at low rpm.

 

[Armandotech]

Hello guys I'm new to the forum but old to DSM's (been working on them since 1998) I have built several high power dsm's but never a 14b one. At the moment i'm working on my friends 92 GSX and at the moment the goal is to do 110mph in an almost full weight dsm, now I have change a few parts but need some recomendations/opinions, the car currently has SBR street fmic, ebay o2 housing with external dump, ebay 3in downpipe and custom 3in exhaust, hks 272 cams and safc. the car had some rc550's injectors but I swapped in the stock ones to get a feel of the car first. Now today we went to the dyno to see what it would do and made 280awhp and 300awtq now are those good numbers for the stock 14b? are they low? should I swap in the stock cams and see how they perform? should I hack the 1g maf or just swap in the evo maf that we have laying around? also the the dyno runs were with a 20psi spike holding 14psi I'm thinking about removing the ebc that is currently on the car and putting a mbc anyways any suggestions/help/tips will be appreciated. Thanks

 

[DSMer541]

this thread is ausome...alot of inspiration for me to try out the stock turbo on my build.....its almost ready , i was thinkin of going to a 16g or 20g after i break in the engine on the 14b but im thinkin maybe ill stick with it for while since it will be a street/strip car, i wont list all my mods ,you can read my profile if you want, but ill be running 8:1 wossner pistons on eagle rods, stock crank and block bored .020 over , jackson auto stage 2 or 3 head (not sure which, i bought it used) with HKS 272 cams, dual springs,+1mm valves....550cc and wally255 ,2g mas, powerd by an eprom and SAFCII with a logger......i really didnt think anyone ran a 14b when doing full builds but i was sure wrong and its amazing that we can get into 11's with it.....great work guys and ill let you know soon how my setup does on the strip as soon as i get the car back on the road and weather clears up .

 

[SBstar]

The larger cams are going to be a hassle when you try to keep the 14b holding boost. But the extra power up top may be worth it (look at Leon Reitman running 272's, Dave Womer running FP2's, and Joe Bucci running crower 413's!). Personally I want to try a set of 264's or equivalent thinking they'll keep more power down low, yet still give me a little power up top and help keep the boost from falling off so drastically.

Armandotech
I'd throw the evo maf in if you have it laying around, anything that will allow more airflow to the compressor inlet is a good thing.

I think those power numbers are respectable. There can be more made, but you've got to start somewhere and I think you'll start finding those places that'll give you the extra little bit.

 

[Gooberlog]

So, that's where I'm at.......almost like in the beginning, trying to think of some small things that might give me a gain for little or no $ spent at all. I'm just not willing to throw too much at it in order to go quicker, no matter where I stand next year.

I feel like that's where i've been since i got this damn car, to an extent. Like you said a while ago, after a point, it gets hard to go faster with out spending much money.

 

[toofast82]

Now today we went to the dyno to see what it would do and made 280awhp and 300awtq now are those good numbers for the stock 14b? are they low? should I swap in the stock cams and see how they perform? should I hack the 1g maf or just swap in the evo maf that we have laying around? also the the dyno runs were with a 20psi spike holding 14psi I'm thinking about removing the ebc that is currently on the car and putting a mbc anyways any suggestions/help/tips will be appreciated. Thanks

Was this on pump gas? Was there any knock on the runs? as i'm assuming this was on a stock timing curve.

Those are pretty good numbers in my opinion at that boost level.

Some recommendations for a little more power would be:
7cm turbine housing(more flow per psi)
Upgraded MAF -2g,evo,speed density

The boost fall off is most likely a result of the turbo's compressor not flowing enough air to maintain the higher psi at those rpms due to the increased engine airflow the bigger cams demand.

Also the problem with just swapping to an E8 maf is that the ECU has set up MAF compensation tables for that specific maf. This may cause the fuel trims to go off and not be able to correct themselves because there is a difference in airflow the ecu is seeing versus what its actually taking in You may need a SAFC or something to make small fuel adjustments to get everything in check. When modifying the ECU file correctly to accomodate a 2G maf, there are four changes that need to made to the code. The E8 is the same, but just with a different compensation table

 

[Gooberlog]

yeah those are good #'s. My old car only made 273awhp on C-16 @ 24 psi w/ a little extra base timing.

 

[Phil1320]

I feel like that's where i've been since i got this damn car, to an extent. Like you said a while ago, after a point, it gets hard to go faster with out spending much money.

Yep. I knew I hadn't hit a wall two years ago while still sitting at 12.0. But, I might be real close to that wall now. Not sure if the cams will pick me up much. Not sure, or positive that a larger FMIC will pick me up much either. Especially when we consider I'm gonna add a bit of weight to the car. But, after reading the latest posts.....I just realized, I still run a 6cm turbine housing..... So, maybe there is a bit there, but, probably not as mine is ported to the max. I'm trying to convince myself to install the balance shaft removal kit. I've heard of people running them with unbalanced/stock bottom ends, but that sounds like a bit of a risk to me. Thoughts?

Short of what we've been talking about with intakes and such, and my above mentioned items.....I'm pretty much out of mods to do.

Hello guys I'm new to the forum but old to DSM's (been working on them since 1998) I have built several high power dsm's but never a 14b one. At the moment i'm working on my friends 92 GSX and at the moment the goal is to do 110mph in an almost full weight dsm, now I have change a few parts but need some recomendations/opinions, the car currently has SBR street fmic, ebay o2 housing with external dump, ebay 3in downpipe and custom 3in exhaust, hks 272 cams and safc. the car had some rc550's injectors but I swapped in the stock ones to get a feel of the car first. Now today we went to the dyno to see what it would do and made 280awhp and 300awtq now are those good numbers for the stock 14b? are they low? should I swap in the stock cams and see how they perform? should I hack the 1g maf or just swap in the evo maf that we have laying around? also the the dyno runs were with a 20psi spike holding 14psi I'm thinking about removing the ebc that is currently on the car and putting a mbc anyways any suggestions/help/tips will be appreciated. Thanks

Welcome to the thread! I think any 14b car making more than 250 HP at the wheels is a good running car. 280 is pretty damn good.

My suggestion: SEAT TIME

this thread is ausome...alot of inspiration for me to try out the stock turbo on my build.....its almost ready , i was thinkin of going to a 16g or 20g after i break in the engine on the 14b but im thinkin maybe ill stick with it for while since it will be a street/strip car, i wont list all my mods ,you can read my profile if you want, but ill be running 8:1 wossner pistons on eagle rods, stock crank and block bored .020 over , jackson auto stage 2 or 3 head (not sure which, i bought it used) with HKS 272 cams, dual springs,+1mm valves....550cc and wally255 ,2g mas, powerd by an eprom and SAFCII with a logger......i really didnt think anyone ran a 14b when doing full builds but i was sure wrong and its amazing that we can get into 11's with it.....great work guys and ill let you know soon how my setup does on the strip as soon as i get the car back on the road and weather clears up .

Glad you like. Good to see you up here! Good luck at the strip!

 

[SBstar]

Yep. I knew I hadn't hit a wall two years ago while still sitting at 12.0. But, I might be real close to that wall now. Not sure if the cams will pick me up much. Not sure, or positive that a larger FMIC will pick me up much either. Especially when we consider I'm gonna add a bit of weight to the car. But, after reading the latest posts.....I just realized, I still run a 6cm turbine housing..... So, maybe there is a bit there, but, probably not as mine is ported to the max. I'm trying to convince myself to install the balance shaft removal kit. I've heard of people running them with unbalanced/stock bottom ends, but that sounds like a bit of a risk to me. Thoughts?

I've personally ran a couple motors with the balance shafts removed, they've all been stock unbalanced bottom ends and I've never had a problem. The vibrations do pick up a little bit, especially if you have prothane motor mounts, but it's worth it overall.

I'm not sure how much the 7cm housing helps, but it can't really hurt to try, although Bucci ran the 6cm the whole time I do believe. If your 6cm is ported to the max, unless you do the same to the 7cm housing you aren't going to flow much more.

I think the cams might help more then you think, throw em in!

Larger FMIC or at least better fmic should give you a bit of a gain, you said it yourself you're heatsoaking the evo front mount.

You are truly running out of things that will net you any kind of big gains. I think you could find some more in tuning, but not much considering you already have the chip from Dave. All the rest of these mods are going to add up to very small gains for the dollars spent. But that's the name of the game, every couple 100ths add up to 10ths in the 1/4!

 

[Armandotech]

thanks for the suggestions guys, also I wanted to let you know that the car was dynoed at a mustang dyno (not trying to create drama), the car had 110oct race gas and it currently has a SAFC for tunning. I think we are going to install the evo maf and try to correct an intermitent sputtering problem that the car has that I haven't been able to identify, other than that the car runs very good and it feels like a 108mph car as it sits. If I'm able to fix the sputtering problem we will take it to the track on wednesday and will keep you guys updated One more questions the car currently has evo8 rims, should we remove them and put some 16in on it or should we take it to the track with the slicks and full weight?

I've personally ran a couple motors with the balance shafts removed, they've all been stock unbalanced bottom ends and I've never had a problem. The vibrations do pick up a little bit, especially if you have prothane motor mounts, but it's worth it overall.

I'm not sure how much the 7cm housing helps, but it can't really hurt to try, although Bucci ran the 6cm the whole time I do believe. If your 6cm is ported to the max, unless you do the same to the 7cm housing you aren't going to flow much more.

I think the cams might help more then you think, throw em in!

Larger FMIC or at least better fmic should give you a bit of a gain, you said it yourself you're heatsoaking the evo front mount.

You are truly running out of things that will net you any kind of big gains. I think you could find some more in tuning, but not much considering you already have the chip from Dave. All the rest of these mods are going to add up to very small gains for the dollars spent. But that's the name of the game, every couple 100ths add up to 10ths in the 1/4!

I've built a few dsm's without balance shafts and unbalanced rotating assembly and we've never had a problem whatsoever, for the record the 14b car i'm working on doesn't have them and it's perfectly fine.

 

[Phil1320]

I've personally ran a couple motors with the balance shafts removed, they've all been stock unbalanced bottom ends and I've never had a problem. The vibrations do pick up a little bit, especially if you have prothane motor mounts, but it's worth it overall.

I'm not sure how much the 7cm housing helps, but it can't really hurt to try, although Bucci ran the 6cm the whole time I do believe. If your 6cm is ported to the max, unless you do the same to the 7cm housing you aren't going to flow much more.

I think the cams might help more then you think, throw em in!

Larger FMIC or at least better fmic should give you a bit of a gain, you said it yourself you're heatsoaking the evo front mount.

You are truly running out of things that will net you any kind of big gains. I think you could find some more in tuning, but not much considering you already have the chip from Dave. All the rest of these mods are going to add up to very small gains for the dollars spent. But that's the name of the game, every couple 100ths add up to 10ths in the 1/4!

I figured the same with the 7cm housing, probably wouldn't see much improvement at all.

Cams, yeah, I'd like to toss them in, but they do require valve spring replacement and that's kind of a pain without the head removed from what I hear.

I do have the Balance shaft elim kit too, so I should find a way to get both of them done.

Definitely no big gains from here on out, except maybe the cams. Baby steps now.

Better FMIC will happen. It's just what, and when. With that, maybe a few more pounds of boost.

I will take 100ths at this point.

I'll be brainstorming all winter long.....

thanks for the suggestions guys, also I wanted to let you know that the car was dynoed at a mustang dyno (not trying to create drama), the car had 110oct race gas and it currently has a SAFC for tunning. I think we are going to install the evo maf and try to correct an intermitent sputtering problem that the car has that I haven't been able to identify, other than that the car runs very good and it feels like a 108mph car as it sits. If I'm able to fix the sputtering problem we will take it to the track on wednesday and will keep you guys updated One more questions the car currently has evo8 rims, should we remove them and put some 16in on it or should we take it to the track with the slicks and full weight?

Not sure swapping a MAF is going to cure a sputtering problem, sounds more like a coil prob or something, but, try it and hopefully it cures the issue.

They say the Mustang dyno is one of the most accurate dynos out there.

Definitely run a 16" rather than a 17" if you can. I think street drag radials on a full weight car should do the trick, especially at your first trip to the strip. But, that's my opinion.

Good luck, hope to hear some good new

 

[Armandotech]

the sputtering problem is intermitent sometimes it doesn't do it for a couple of days and all of the sudden it starts doing it, so we'll see and for the record depending on the set of cams and how high you plan on revving you can leave the stock springs and retainers, we still have them in the car

 

[toofast82]

the sputtering problem is intermitent sometimes it doesn't do it for a couple of days and all of the sudden it starts doing it,

What's the spark plug gap?
I've always been pretty happy with .026", anything higher and I always seem to get spark blowout on decent boost
280whp on a mustang, thats pretty damn good!

 

[habitatguy187]

I just realized, I still run a 6cm turbine housing..... So, maybe there is a bit there, but, probably not as mine is ported to the max.

You can port it all you want but unless you get it machined where the turbine wheel sits you can never get it as big as a 7cm housing. You will notice a difference, period. But, that's getting away from the stock turbo IMO, so whether or not you want to do it is all up to you.

I think we are going to install the evo maf and try to correct an intermitent sputtering problem that the car has that I haven't been able to identify

The only way to safely run an evo mas with just an safc on a 1G is to also be running e85. Thomas Dorris (dsmlink) said that the timing would be advanced so much that you couldn't get away with running any significant amount of boost. I'd be worried about trying even with e85, I think he said the evo mas would throw the airflow reading off 48%.

 

[toofast82]

I figured the same with the 7cm housing, probably wouldn't see much improvement at all.

Phil, I definitely think a 7cm housing would be worthwhile to you. Plenty more flow per psi. Plus they're like $50. When I switched over to external wg and 7cm housing on a 14b at some point, it made a huge difference.
I see some high horse 16g guys say they gained some airflow and topend power by switching to an FP manifold.

 

[pneumo]

Armando, your intermittent sputtering could be maf overrun. It'll definately happen at that power level. I'd recomend swap in the evo maf and re-tune it. If the maf gives you knock from too much timing, just add racegas or pull out a few degrees of timing with the CAS. Good luck at the track!

 

[91-gsx]

the sputtering problem is intermitent sometimes it doesn't do it for a couple of days and all of the sudden it starts doing it, so we'll see and for the record depending on the set of cams and how high you plan on revving you can leave the stock springs and retainers, we still have them in the car

I agree with Pneumo in saying that it sounds like your MAF sensor is being overrun.

When I had overrun my 1G MAF sensor back in 2005, I removed the bottom metal honey comb in the MAF sensor. This pushed off fuel cut and overrun enough for me to add a few more pounds of boost with the stock 14b. I got close to 20PSI on 91 octane at the time.

An EVO MAF sensor would be very beneficial and is far superior to the 1G MAF sensor. But, if your trying to fight off a BIT of overrun, removing the lower honey comb is very easy and does not take any compensation. The car does have a bit more of an aggressive idle after this small hack, if you do not like the aggresive tone, it is much easier to tune that out then to compensate for the EVO MAF sensor.

This modification will make you run more timing in some areas of the powerband, but once you hit full boost, the timing that the ECU plugs in should be close to what you use to experience and the A/F ratio should be a bit leaner. The timing is easy to compensate for through the Cam Angle Sensor if you find that it is required. The A/F ratio must get leaner when you remove the lower honey comb from the 1G MAF sensor, but it still never got lean enough to become a problem for me on 91 octane gas, so I assume you will be fine with 110.

Good luck at the track.

 

[Armandotech]

What's the spark plug gap?
I've always been pretty happy with .026", anything higher and I always seem to get spark blowout on decent boost
280whp on a mustang, thats pretty damn good!

the gap is .025

Armando, your intermittent sputtering could be maf overrun. It'll definately happen at that power level. I'd recomend swap in the evo maf and re-tune it. If the maf gives you knock from too much timing, just add racegas or pull out a few degrees of timing with the CAS. Good luck at the track!

Hmm I've never experienced maf overrun so it might be it, at the moment the car has the lower honeycomb elimininated and the bolt backed out, I was thinking about porting the maf to see if that helps before swaping out maf's. Also the timing is at 5degrees and it runs on 110oct I will do some more testing and report back with hopefully good news. Thanks to everybody

 

[Gooberlog]

the sputtering problem is intermitent sometimes it doesn't do it for a couple of days and all of the sudden it starts doing it, so we'll see and for the record depending on the set of cams and how high you plan on revving you can leave the stock springs and retainers, we still have them in the car

Stock 2G Maf FTW!

I figured the same with the 7cm housing, probably wouldn't see much improvement at all.

Cams, yeah, I'd like to toss them in, but they do require valve spring replacement and that's kind of a pain without the head removed from what I hear.


Better FMIC will happen. It's just what, and when. With that, maybe a few more pounds of boost.

Phil from my experience i always noticed the gains from swaping in a ported 7cm housing from a STOCK 14b 6cm. Not sure if the gains would be noticeable since you already ported out the 6cm but for around $50 i would try it.

A mild increase in the cams could make a world of difference i would immagine as the 14b is quite weak on the top end. If you got em, run em! I have a "head on car" valve spring compressor and i replaced valve seals on my old white talon with it and it's not too bad. Have a buddy stand by to use a magnet to get your valve keepers from dropping. From what i've read on the forums, if you aren't planning on revving past 8k rpms, the stock valve train should be fine. I know you don't want to pull that head and open a can a of worms

And i'm sure if your heat soaking the EVO8 FMIC core, that would probably net your biggest difference. I mean damn, you pretty much did EVERYTHING else, except getting reallllll crazy with the weight reduction.

 

[habitatguy187]

you pretty much did EVERYTHING else, except getting reallllll crazy with the weight reduction.

Didn't he say 2300lbs w/ driver?

Phil you should do a weight reduction thread or blog, just with tons of pictures and stuff. I think you have the lightest awd I've ever heard of besides guys like Shep.

 

[Gooberlog]

Didn't he say 2300lbs w/ driver?

Phil you should do a weight reduction thread or blog, just with tons of pictures and stuff. I think you have the lightest awd I've ever heard of besides guys like Shep.

I thought he was joking, but i may be wrong. I know his talon is prettttttty light. Now with some lexan going on it might take flight at the end of the 1320

 

[cAPSlOCK98]

So is this thread basically focusing on race gas times?

Personally, I'm more interested in seeing what the lil' 14B can do on good old 91-93oct pump gas.