My friend just offered me $300 for the Evo III, so I'm done debating the upgrade, its time.

Please be specific, don't say 50 trim. I want an exact turbo.

I'm looking for an EASY 300awhp with the potential for at least ~350 in the future. Spool time is not an issue. Don't even suggest a 20G, I will not buy a used turbo.

BB is not only not nessesary, but not wanted. The cost and hastle doesn't justify 300rpm quicker spool.

Right now I'm sort of debating between these two, any thoughts/opinions? Internally gated (a real functional internal gate) would be nice.

DO NOT RECOMMEND A TURBO YOU DO NOT HAVE FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE WITH! That's how I ended up with the POS Evo III.

Part Number: SCM3227E
Max Rated HP: 480
Inlet/Outlet Size: 3"/2"
Bearing System: 360 Race
A/R Ratio: .63
Garrett Compressor Wheel Trim: 54
Garrett Turbine Wheel Trim: 69

Garrett Compressor Wheel Specs:
Wheel Trim: 54
Wheel Diameter: 55mm
Wheel Inducer: 2.170"
Wheel Exducer: 2.950"

Garrett Turbine Wheel Specs:
Wheel Trim: 69
Wheel Style: T31
Wheel Inducer: 2.559"
Wheel Exducer: 2.121"

_________________________________________________



Part Number: SCM3231E
Max Rated HP: 480
Inlet/Outlet Size: 3"/2"
Bearing System: 360 Race
A/R Ratio: .63
Garrett Compressor Wheel Trim: 54
Garrett Turbine Wheel Trim: 76

Garrett Compressor Wheel Specs:
Wheel Trim: 54
Wheel Diameter: 55mm
Wheel Inducer: 2.170"
Wheel Exducer: 2.950"

Garrett Turbine Wheel Specs:
Wheel Trim: 76
Wheel Style: T31
Wheel Inducer: 2.559"
Wheel Exducer: 2.229"



I like the larger turbine trim on the second one. I'm a big fan of unrestrictive turbines. I'm sure this won't help with creep though.

Would I be correct in assume that either one will work fine with a stock redline? These aren't that big are they? I don't mind a lot of lag, but spooling 1,000rpm before redline is a waste.

Important questions I need answered for these or any turbo suggested:

1. will these creep bad internally gated?

2. I need a ball park spool rpm

3. what kind of boost am I looking at for 300awhp?

20psi should do it but In my personal experience 20psi on an evo3 and 20psi on a 50 trim isn't all that much of a difference.

And 20psi on a 50 trim will probably have you close to running out of fuel.

Why is the EVO3 a POS?

If you bought either of those turbos, you'd just be paying more for later spool. Why not pay less for quicker spool?

EVO III

FWD98GST said:

EVO III

Click to expand...

Did you read?

In my opinion you sold a good turbo for your goals and you are not open minded about the other turbo that will be easy to do it. :cough: 20g :cough:

wishihadatalon said:

Did you read?

In my opinion you sold a good turbo for your goals and you are not open minded about the other turbo that will be easy to do it. :cough: 20g :cough:

Click to expand...

he said no 20g, but i put one on a friends car, stock injectors with a fuel pump at 15psi and that sucker hauled! I want one now! woulda womped on my car. He didnt even have the td06 wheel, but it was internally gated and didnt spike or creep at all.

FWD98GST said:

EVO III

Click to expand...

F@ckin amazing.


How does a 20G compare in size to the average 50 trim? I really want to avoid a used turbo, I would never buy used online, and they're very difficult to find around here. That's why I'm pretty much ruling it out.


The Evo III needs to be upgraded because as far as I'm concerned its maxed at 20psi. I don't believe in this pushing turbos to 11/10 like everyone on here does. It will never do 350awhp which is what I'll be looking for next summer. When I'm looking to make a certain amount of power out of motor, I shoot for a turbo that will do at least 100hp over that. This seems to be a foreign concept to DSMers, although they have no problem with 200+hp over on injectors.

And yes, I'm paying more for slower spool, less backpressure, and less stress on the engine.... so it really doesn't bother me.

How do the 2 turbos that I posted up compare to say, an FP Green or a 20G? I'm trying to get an idea of size here.

Does anyone have wheel diameters and trims for the Evo III so I can have a better idea of comparison?

I am assuming that by easy 300awhp you mean pump gas? I would assume so but I figured I would ask.

Yes of course, thanks for clarifying that. That's another reason the Evo III has to go. I'd even like to do the 350 on pump after I get some bigger injectors, cams, and a chip.

You could meet your goals on a small 16g. Go with a ported and lightly clipped Big 16g and you'll have a bit more power potential. Why spend more money than you have to with such nominal goals?

Regards,

On a small 16G?WTF

This is kind of exactly what I didn't want this thread to turn into. If i wanted to use 100bizilliondy octane and 360* cams on a T25 to make 350hp that's what I would be doing. I'm looking for a turbo that will be efficient at 300awhp (any 16G is not) but will be WELL on the LOWER LEFT side of its map (definatly not a 16G). I don't not agree with the "push the smallest turbo you can find until the wheels explode and your intercooler melts" philosophy.

Please don't even get me started on clipping....

Why spend more money that ABOSOLUTELY PHYSICALLY nessesay? Because I like to do things the right way, and $500 is a small price to pay for having a turbo that will do what I want with ease.

So lets try this... forget everything else, please just answer the 3 questions I listed in my first post about the 2 turbos I've already selected.

MyBeatGSX said:

On a small 16G?WTF

This is kind of exactly what I didn't want this thread to turn into. If i wanted to use 100bizilliondy octane and 360* cams on a T25 to make 350hp that's what I would be doing. I'm looking for a turbo that will be efficient at 300awhp (any 16G is not) but will be WELL on the LOWER LEFT side of its map (definatly not a 16G). I don't not agree with the "push the smallest turbo you can find until the wheels explode and your intercooler melts" philosophy.

Please don't even get me started on clipping....

Why spend more money that ABOSOLUTELY PHYSICALLY nessesay? Because I like to do things the right way, and $500 is a small price to pay for having a turbo that will do what I want with ease.

So lets try this... forget everything else, please just answer the 3 questions I listed in my first post about the 2 turbos I've already selected.

Click to expand...

Hey, well if you can't make that kind of power out of a 16g, don't blame the rest of us for it.

Why not do a fully built stroker motor, a F.A.S.T. system, big intercooler, big injectors, run alcohol, and a nice 101mm turbo? If you turn the boost down to like 3psi you can make 300 awhp and be on the FAAAR left side of the compressor map.

Honestly, your thought process is skewed. You are basically telling people that you want a horsepower level that is for all intents and purposes, attainable on a 14b, but you want to have a big turbo for some wholly unknown reason. Do you just want the 'big turbo look' or something? I'm really not sure where you are going with this..

Regards,

MyBeatGSX - What makes you so set on the 54 trim compressor wheel? (I'm just curious)

I hate to recommend such a "bandwagon" turbo, but how about a 50-trim? I cannot comment on the 54-trim from personal experience, but I have used two different 50-trim wheels.

For the 20+ psi range, the 50-trim looks more efficient on paper. I don't mean to bench race, but you should be able to run it at around 19-20 psi on pump gas and make 300 AWHP and still be in the 76-78% efficiency range. This is assuming you have a stock engine, cams, and intake manifold, with a decent tune and a FMIC. With more boost, higher octane fuel, cams, and/or less intake tract restriction, you should be in the 350-450 WHP without a problem.

So, the 50-trim sounds like it would fit your description well. And you could also go with the super-50 trim. I'm currently running one and I love it. It has a slightly larger major (exducer), to help create faster boost response at lower engine and turbo speeds.

(And if you get a Turbonetics CHRA, it comes standard with a big shaft, 360* thrust bearing, and their compressor cover's finish is polished as a standard.)

NosLaser said:

Hey, well if you can't make that kind of power out of a 16g, don't blame the rest of us for it.

Why not do a fully built stroker motor, a F.A.S.T. system, big intercooler, big injectors, run alcohol, and a nice 101mm turbo? If you turn the boost down to like 3psi you can make 300 awhp and be on the FAAAR left side of the compressor map.

Honestly, your thought process is skewed. You are basically telling people that you want a horsepower level that is for all intents and purposes, attainable on a 14b, but you want to have a big turbo for some wholly unknown reason. Do you just want the 'big turbo look' or something? I'm really not sure where you are going with this..

Regards,

Click to expand...

You take it to an extreme but that's exactly my thoughts. If I wanted more than 350 I would be getting a built short block. I don't care if the stock block CAN do 400hp, I want reliability and a non-halfassed car. Overbuilt is the way to go. Is a shame everybody are such cheap bastards they don't see it this way. This is another reason we have thousands of people with "unreliable", "always broken" DSMs. If you can't afford to do it right, you should go buy a Corolla an throw and intake and exhaust on it.


In all honesty, YOUR thinking is skewed. I don't care what CAN be done, what HAS been done, or what is physically possible. I'm well aware of the fact that some idiot disconnected his wastegate line and made 300hp on a 14b, hell its probably been done on a T25. Why upgrade at all? SB did 400awhp on a Evo III. Why don't we just get built motors, convert the fuel system to nitro, and run Evo III's with the wastegates welded shut? We'll all make 500hp @ 3,500rpm, and 300hp @ 6,500rpm, and about 800lb/ft off idle. Just hit full boost and shift, no need (or reason) to even take it redline! Less strain on the motor!!

I don't understand why no one can understand where I'm coming from. I've ranted about this in 9 million other threads, I don't care if some idiot ran 10's on a T25, its not the best way to run 10's.

Every time this sh!t comes up in another topic when someone is struggling to get 300hp out of an Evo III everyone jumps in and says, "Oh you should have gone bigger" or "Get meth injection or race gas". But yet every time someone asks for a turbo recommendation for 300hp its EVO III EVO III!!!!!! EVO III PWNZ JOO!!!!

I don't want meth injection, I don't want race gas, I don't want a maxed out turbo, I don't want a turbo that won't hold boost to redline with cams, I don't want to force 300hp through a 2" inlet. I want 300-350 ALL WHEEL HP on 93 octane with no sort of supplimentary injection. I don't care if you have wiseman status or not, you're smoking dope if you think that's realistic for a 14B, 16G, or whatever other stupid small turbo you would like to list.

Wow look, actual information that's relevant to what I asked, not surprising considering who its coming from.

99gst_racer said:

MyBeatGSX - What makes you so set on the 54 trim compressor wheel? (I'm just curious)

I hate to recommend such a "bandwagon" turbo, but how about a 50-trim? I cannot comment on the 54-trim from personal experience, but I have used two different 50-trim wheels.

For the 20+ psi range, the 50-trim looks more efficient on paper. I don't mean to bench race, but you should be able to run it at around 19-20 psi on pump gas and make 300 AWHP and still be in the 76-78% efficiency range. This is assuming you have a stock engine, cams, and intake manifold, with a decent tune and a FMIC. With more boost, higher octane fuel, cams, and/or less intake tract restriction, you should be in the 350-450 WHP without a problem.

So, the 50-trim sounds like it would fit your description well. And you could also go with the super-50 trim. I'm currently running one and I love it. It has a slightly larger major (exducer), to help create faster boost response at lower engine and turbo speeds.

(And if you get a Turbonetics CHRA, it comes standard with a big shaft, 360* thrust bearing, and their compressor cover's finish is polished as a standard.)

Click to expand...

Where did you buy yours from? That sounds pretty good to me.

I picked out the 2 I did because I've had good experience with the SC series on Hondas. The smallest extremepsi sells is the 54 trim, I know its a 54 trim, but is the overall wheel diameter comparable to the classic "50 trim" or maybe its a smaller wheel?

Aside from that, the SCM series go for only $800 from extremepsi, which I find hard to beat. I'm definatly open to anything in that price range

I'm assuming an external gate is probably going to be nessesary to hold 20psi or do these wastegates actually open 90* and flow correctly? Or maybe they're still MHI gates?

MyBeatGSX said:

Wow look, actual information that's relevant to what I asked, not surprising considering who its coming from.

Where did you buy yours from? That sounds pretty good to me.

Click to expand...

I actually bought mine from a reputable member of this site. It was used, but I had 100% trust in the seller, and I've been very happy with the purchase.

MyBeatGSX said:

I picked out the 2 I did because I've had good experience with the SC series on Hondas. The smallest extremepsi sells is the 54 trim, I know its a 54 trim, but is the overall wheel diameter comparable to the classic "50 trim" or maybe its a smaller wheel?

Click to expand...

It looks like the 54 trim wheel has a slightly larger inducer (and I mean slightly: .048"). That means it's probably capable of a little bit more overall flow (but not much), but the compressor map for that wheel shows it to be more efficient for lower boost levels. Which is beneficial for smaller displacement engines such as Honda engines.

Keep in mind - what works well for the 1.5L and 1.6L Honda engines is not always best for a DSM engine. (The V-trim comes to mind when I say that.....)

MyBeatGSX said:

Aside from that, the SCM series go for only $800 from extremepsi, which I find hard to beat. I'm definitely open to anything in that price range

Click to expand...

I'm not completely familiar with the details of what many of our vendors are offering. Mine is a full T3. If you could get a 50-trim CHRA with a To4E compressor cover and something like a Bullseye or similar housing for around $650, then you're doing good.

MyBeatGSX said:

I'm assuming an external gate is probably going to be nessesary to hold 20psi or do these wastegates actually open 90* and flow correctly? Or maybe they're still MHI gates?

Click to expand...

And I haven't used an internal wastegate since early 2004, so I cannot comment on that. I would assume that controlling 20 psi should be a problem for them, but I'll let someone else comment on that.


I'll check through some of our vendor's sites when I get back from my lunch break, and I'll see what combinations they have to offer.

MyBeatGSX said:

You take it to an extreme but that's exactly my thoughts. If I wanted blah blah blah

Click to expand...

So basically what you are saying is you want a hamburger, but you'd rather pay the price of lobster for it. Gotcha.

The amount of air needed to make 350 HP (provided you have a decent intercooler setup) isn't going to cause catastrophe on it's own. So with that said, it doesn't matter if said airflow comes from a T66, a 16g, or a Hippo's fart. I get what you are saying with wanting to over-engineer your car, but if that's the case and you have such an unlimited budget, then why in the sam blue hell are you messing around with a stupid 4 cylinder for?

I always thought the whole point of DSM's were to have a fun car that could be made fast for a reasonable amount of money spent. When you get into spending more than the car is worth then I question your judgement. I guess if you want to spend twice as much for the same results then you are free to do that.

Edit: You do realize however, that with a larger turbo, your car will be in fact SLOWER than a 350hp car with a smaller turbo, correct?

Regards,

No, what I'm saying is that if I wanted a hambuger I'd go get some beaf and make one, not grind up the nearest road kill and call it a "hambuger" simply because it would look the same and cost less.

I'm well aware that it will be marginally slower, that's where the safety comes in. The Evo III will make that 350hp way lower than a 50 trim or larger. Look at SBR's dyno chart for the 350-400hp pulls. That thing peaks to like 430lb/ft and then falls off a cliff, I think they made peak HP at like 4,800rpm. That's a ton of stress on the motor to make that torque at low RPM and end up with the same amount of power.

I realize I'll have less power under the curve, but the engine will be under less stress to make that power. I'll make peak power near redline where it should be made and make a more reasonable and progressive low end to go with it. Why on earth do I need power below my launch rpm? The engine will never see it anyway.

So yes, it makes a big difference what that air is coming from and what turbine it has to go back out through.

99gst, thanks for the help. Let me know what you find on those sites. I was just looking around and found out that the FP Green is like $1,200 and the only other 50 trim I found was from SBR for like $700.

Are you suggesting I peice together one?

I made 307awhp on a small 16g and PUMP GAS, and 338awhp on race gas with it as well. Almost to where your goals are for a 50trim or bigger, this was on 550s and a 190pump too.

Now i have upgraded to 650cs a 255 and a eprom ecu socketed with a dsmchips chip and a evo 16g. Im hoping for 320 at least on pump and 360+on race gas, and given my numbers on the small 16g it should make it.

I suggest you get some cams, that made a big difference 15awhp on pump and and about 35awhp on race gas.

It can be done, its not hard to do. You just have to do things right and take your time, and a nice tune will help too. Im not saying everyone can do this b/c every motor is in different condition. But it can be done and it was not at all difficult to do.

You're getting pretty out of control. People are trying to help you. If you didn't want opinions, why did you start the thread? You seem so closed minded... Why not just sit in your room with your ideas to yourself. It's like you're trying to show-off how much you "know" about turbos.

Here in the engineering world, we do research before we do stuff. We look at designs of the past that triumphed AND those that have failed. We learn as much, if not more, from the failures than the successes. We also realize that things on paper are not always the same as in the real world.

In theory, you want a turbo that is in perfect efficiency. You don't care if it's slower than other cars, just as long as you aren't stressing the motor. Then why don't you just put everything at stock? Stock boost, stock intercooler, stock injectors, and stock turbo should be right up your alley.

In theory, you don't want to stress your motor. The thing is, motors are stressed daily. Car manufacturers have known this for decades, which is why they build their motors to withstand many different conditions. It's the same thing that comes into play with tire design. If you wanted the pinnacle of dry performance, you could get some R-compounds or similar. However, what will these do in wet conditions or even snow? Exactly. Which is why the all-season tire exists. So you don't want to stress your motor, yet you want to run considerably higher-than-stock boost.

You want so many things that are great in theory, but completely ridiculous in real life. You have that notion of overbuilding everything, so why not continue it into other realms besides the turbo? Why not get 1600cc injectors? They'll be at such a low IDC that you won't be stressing anything. Why not get 3 fuel pumps so that each one doesn't need to work hard.

You could even get little tiny Daytons so that your motor and driveline won't be comprimised. They won't have to work very hard to get the tires to spin.

Et tu, Brute.



Regards,

Hey Tyler I noticed you asked for sizes of the 16Gs so here they are with the proper calculations to Trims by yours truely
Small 16G:
Inducer diameter = 1.83" (46.482mm)
Exducer diameter = 2.36" (59.944mm)
Trim = Inducer2/Exducer2
Trim = 216/359 = 60 Trim This flows 505cfm (flow rate off SBR & RRE)

Example is MHI "Big" 16G:
Inducer diameter=1.89" (48.006mm)
Exducer diameter=2.68" (68.072mm)
Trim= Inducer2/Exducer2
Trim=230/436= 50 Trim This flows 550cfm (flow rate off SBR & RRE)

MHI EVO III 16G:
Inducer Diameter=1.903"
Exducer Diameter=2.675"
Trim= inducer2/exducer2
Trim= 50 Trim (flows 550cfm)

Seriously I would just get the same turbo that Andy M. has, its a 50 Trim, and has a 360* journal bearing instead of BB, and he pushes 25psi daily He should be getting his crappy spool time down soon as he gets a restrictor on his oil supply -4an line.

PS: That 16G is rated to 400hp j/p
Will be nice to see the new set-up when its finished. Just remember it doesnt really matter what we say, its your desision in the end, we just give you info...even if its"Keep the 16G" when you specificly say" I dont want a 16G so dont mention it!"

Dustin

Running the turbo offf its Map!?!!?!?!?!?!? Who the hell is tuning your car? You know a EVOIII 16G is more efficent than a 18G!


I was running 23psi on pump gas and the car pulled really hard and great, So I dont know what your talking about.

Click to expand...

I'm glad we have your assdyno made compressor map to tell us this. How efficient is an 18G? Do you even know? At what boost and flow is it more efficient? Or is it just "more efficient" because that's what you've heard.

You people act like I'm buying a GT42R to make 250 crank hp. I talking about buying a 450hp turbo to make 350hp. I'm not buying an 800hp, or even 600hp turbo to make 350hp, that would be overkill. How many engines have each of you blown up? I'm on number zero and I work with tin can motor Hondas.

But you've all finally convinced me. Smaller is better. I'm going to put a 1.5cc Nitro motor in my car rev it to 9,000,000,000,000,000rpm. That should be more than enough hp to get the car moving fast. Why use 2.0L when I could use 0.001L?

Why do you guys run a SMIM on a 400hp car when you can physically fit 400++hp worth of air through a 1G manifold?

Why do you use tubular manifolds when you can make 500+hp on a ported 2G?

Why do you use 850cc injectors on your 370hp car when 650cc's will flow 370hp all day long?

You love maxing out turbos, why not max out other parts as well? Why not wait until each part physically fails before upgrading it.

Why upgrade to a GM MAF when 90% of you can't outflow a 2G MAF?

Why go 6 bolt head when people make 400+hp on stock 7 bolts?

Why upgrade to a 2600 when the stock clutch hadn't started slipping yet?

Why upgrade BOVs when you could just turn the 2G one backwards?

Why use a 3" exhaust when a 2.5" will flow enough for 95% of people?

The list goes on and on and on. Like fourreG said, I specifically said the 16G is gone. I don't care whether you like it or not. If someone stops and asks you for directions do you give them directions or do you argue with them that they need to buy a cheaper car because it will get them their just the same? If you hail a cab at the airport, does the guy take you were you want to go or does he bi*** at you because you paid to much for your airline ticket?

This is retarded. Answer the question that was asked. A 16G WILL NOT MAKE AN EFFICIENT 350AWHP!! Its not even debatable, its a dead issue. Now we've added cams, now I need cams too. Oops, I thought this was cheap. So invest another $600 into my extremely limiting current setup. There's my new turbo and then some right there. Oh but wait, cams only got me 330. Time for meth injection... oh but I said I didn't want meth injection, ah wth, I'm into it this far I gotta buy it. So I drop another $300+ or whatever meth costs. So now I have a 350hp car that idles like shit, makes 350hp only when I have meth in the tank, and I blew all my money on cams and meth injection so I couldn't get EEPROM... so now I'm stuck tuning 750's with an SAFC.

So I come back on here and make a thread that says my car sucks, I hate it, its unreliable, I've dumped so much why doesn't it make enough power, it run likes shit. And what does everyone reply with......

"Oh dip yo, your turbo is too small. Why didn't you get a 50 trim? Those things do 350hp all day long." WTF

______________________________________

FourreG, thanks for the help as always. So those wheels are significantly smaller.

Lol a 350hp car that idles like shit? Funny my car will barly will blip at idle, AMS tuned my car and it doesnt idle like shit, or even lobe because my car is tuned good.

Heres some 16G compressor maps:

http://newengdsm.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2449&highlight=16g

http://newengdsm.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12489