Degreeing in a cam without adjustable gears?

[forcefed86]

Just wondering if anyone uses the offset bushings like below to degree in cams? Extremely standard practice in small block v8's.

Just looking strictly at the cost POV. I'd like to retard my exhaust cam a few degrees but have a hard time dishing out the 300 dollars for a set of adjustable cam gears.

Amazon.com: Competition Cams 4760 Cam Degree Bushing: Automotive

[95blackGsTurbo]

Here is the writeup on how to correctly degree 4g63 cams.
4G63 Camshaft Degreeing

[forcefed86]

Thanks, I'm aware of that method. But to say one method is "right" while all others are wrong is a pretty broad statement.

You can degree in the cam just the same with bushings. I've done it many many times, but not on a DSM product.

Looking more closely at the OEM cams this won't work, so never mind.

[snowborder714]

I'm not sure how this would work since the cams and cam gears have a locating pin.

[IgotBoost91]

couldnt you just move the exhaust cam gear one way a couple teeth?

[95blackGsTurbo]

Originally Posted by snowborder714

I'm not sure how this would work since the cams and cam gears have a locating pin.

It is kind of like cam degreeing a V8. They have dowels as well, you have to drill out the hole on the gear itself so it can move on the car and install bushings like the one pictures but smaller. I have not seen these yet for DSM's. Like having an eccentric on the cam like we have in our rear suspension.

** If you move the gear a tooth it can cause valve to piston contact. These are interference motors. **

[snowborder714]

I'm not familiar with V8's, but that's interesting.

[95blackGsTurbo]

Basically you are making the hole bigger that goes over the dowel so the gear can move with the cam remaining stationary.

[tkelly27]

Originally Posted by 95blackGsTurbo

Basically you are making the hole bigger that goes over the dowel so the gear can move with the cam remaining stationary.

Then the offsets push the camshaft forward or backward.

The only real problem I could see is that there are adjustable cam gears for less than $200 that don't require the removal of the cam gear to adjust the phasing. If nobody makes those, then they'll have to be custom done and by the time you're done machining the stock cam gear and getting those made, you may as well have adjustable ones that are easier to work with.

[95blackGsTurbo]

Originally Posted by tkelly27

Then the offsets push the camshaft forward or backward.

The only real problem I could see is that there are adjustable cam gears for less than $200 that don't require the removal of the cam gear to adjust the phasing. If nobody makes those, then they'll have to be custom done and by the time you're done machining the stock cam gear and getting those made, you may as well have adjustable ones that are easier to work with.

The bushing doesn't go on the cam it goes over the dowel. The gear is still centered on the cam with the bolt.

[JusMX141]

You just have to be looking for deals, and be ready to buy when they become available.

I picked up the Hayame adjustable gears that are going on my AWD from a closeout deal on eBay. They were $85 shipped, brand new-in-box. They're a *10* on the bling chart, and they're a hell of a lot easier than fumbling around small degree bushings.

[forcefed86]

Yea your all right, it would probably be cheaper in the long run to just run the adjustable gears. Just an idea!

Originally Posted by IgotBoost91

couldnt you just move the exhaust cam gear one way a couple teeth?

A "couple teeth" would be a massive change. I'm running the BC stage II cam (272). So they are pretty horrible to start with. Usually requiring around a 5* adjustment. U may get by with 1 tooth, but you'd have to be really careful.

Anyone know how many degrees of offset 1 tooth equals?

[luvmygst]

Originally Posted by forcefed86

Yea your all right, it would probably be cheaper in the long run to just run the adjustable gears. Just an idea!




A "couple teeth" would be a massive change. I'm running the BC stage II cam (272). So they are pretty horrible to start with. Usually requiring around a 5* adjustment. U may get by with 1 tooth, but you'd have to be really careful.

Anyone know how many degrees of offset 1 tooth equals?

I think that the cam gears have 48 teeth so one tooth would be 7.5 deg. Dont quote me on the number of teeth. Just take 360 and divide by the number of teeth and that will give you the answer.

[JusMX141]

Originally Posted by luvmygst

I think that the cam gears have 48 teeth so one tooth would be 7.5 deg.

Fixed.

[99gst_racer]

It's a neat idea but not worth the headache with what adjustable gears cost. I picked mine up for $150 out the door.

Originally Posted by forcefed86

Anyone know how many degrees of offset 1 tooth equals?

360 / # of teeth on the gear

[95blackGsTurbo]

Originally Posted by 99gst_racer

It's a neat idea but not worth the headache with what adjustable gears cost.

Coming from the man who decided to do a compound turbo setup as opposed to just a big single. This should be a cakewalk lol.

[99gst_racer]

Originally Posted by 95blackGsTurbo

Coming from the man who decided to do a compound turbo setup as opposed to just a big single. This should be a cakewalk lol.

But if I could have bought the compound turbo set-up for $400, I would have done just that.

[LiquidX]

So when you degree a cam you are still infact rotating the cam to make it exatcly at TDC with the timing marks on everything else. I'm assuming it would only really be a partial tooth adjustment which is why you can't just rotate the cam a tooth on it's own. Am I correct on this statement?

[Force Fed 4g63]

I had my FP2's degreed on the stock cam gears, it doesn't take very long either. I was really glad I did too because they were a decent bit out of time and I noticed the difference big time. There's a guy in Florida who is currently making kits for people to do it themselves. He's very active on another DSM forum I'm on but I don't believe he's on here. If anyone wants some more info they can pm me.

[99gst_racer]

Originally Posted by LiQUiDx

So when you degree a cam you are still infact rotating the cam to make it exatcly at TDC with the timing marks on everything else. I'm assuming it would only really be a partial tooth adjustment which is why you can't just rotate the cam a tooth on it's own. Am I correct on this statement?

Correct. Degreeing a camshaft is rotating the cam ever so slightly without moving the cam gear or any other part of the rotating assembly. It's usually a partial tooth adjustment (typically 1-5 degrees which is less than 1 tooth).

Originally Posted by Force Fed 4g63

I had my FP2's degreed on the stock cam gears, it doesn't take very long either. I was really glad I did too because they were a decent bit out of time and I noticed the difference big time. There's a guy in Florida who is currently making kits for people to do it themselves. He's very active on another DSM forum I'm on but I don't believe he's on here. If anyone wants some more info they can pm me.

I'd like to know how you degreed your cams with stock gears.

[JAXWHITE1G]

The guy in Florida would be me. I have built a system to degree OEM cam gears using eccentric bushings. I can adjust the cams in the vehicle 1G and 2G without removing the timing belt. With this system there is no chance of the bolts working loose and the gear slipping time and the eccentrics can be changed quite quickly. Here are some photos.
The basic tools.

A machined guide.

Slide the gear out and install shim to hold it.

Lock the gear and remove the alignment pin.

Drill the pin hole to fit the bushing.

Remove shim and push the gear back on cam.

Install bushing.

Install bolt.

I can get 9 deg adjustment each way at 1 deg intervals.


I have done 5 cars now and plan on doing many more. I have machined 150 bushings and updated my tooling from the above. I don't have any updated photos.
When I get enough posts I'll show off my TMIC in my 1G.
Mike

[Force Fed 4g63]

Speak of the devil Mike! I'm glad you showed up because you can explain it waaaay better than me lol. Mike very generously degreed my cams for me, and I know for a fact I got the power I did in part because the cams were degreed! Thanks again Mike!

[ruben2566]

Nice work. Cam gear manufacturers are going to hate you, (Chinese).

[99gst_racer]

Yes, nice work. I guess we now know it's possible to properly do this.

I can honestly say that I would never do it due to the affordability of aftermarket adjustable gears, but props for figuring it out and getting it done.

[snowborder714]

Very neat Mike! If you plan on making the kit to sell to members here, you should look into a Supporting Freelancer account

[forcefed86]

Pretty impressive. It's nice you don't need to remove the timing belt. That alone would make it worth while IMO. Wish I still lived in palm beack FL. I'd swing by!

[JAXWHITE1G]

Originally Posted by snowborder714

Very neat Mike! If you plan on making the kit to sell to members here, you should look into a Supporting Freelancer account

I have been giving that some thought. I do believe this is a viable system. If a person does install aftermarket adjustable cam gears It is always best to tear down the belt system for install to assure no teeth get skipped. This system avoids that and can be done in less than an hour. Also with aftermarket gears you still need to buy dial indicators, 2 solid lifters, degree wheel, adapters,etc. Just about every time I see a set of adjustable gears they are setting straight up and have never been adjusted, for show only. I have been building performance engines since 1974 and my instructor told me before you do anything to an engine for performance, you must degree the cams. That is the base line of your engine. In all these years I have only found a few that were actually in specification. Now days it is the most overlooked thing in performance as it can't just be bolted on and is considered a black art by many.

Mike

[99gst_racer]

How did you attach that extension on your dial indicator?

Also, how are you doing it without solid/adjustable lifters?

[jrohner]

Originally Posted by 99gst_racer

How did you attach that extension on your dial indicator?

Also, how are you doing it without solid/adjustable lifters?

Sounds to me like he's just turning them a certain number of degrees, rather than really 'degreeing the cams'.

[forcefed86]

The way I see it it, it is the same as having adjustable cam gears. You still have to set your dial indicator and degree wheel up. Then just see how far off you are from the specs in the cam card. If your 3* off you install a 3* bushing etc.... Why would adjustable lifters be needed? They aren't needed with adjustable cam gears?

Unfortunately since you do have to drill out the dowel hole by hand I could see the degree being off a very tiny amount. But it's better still better than going through the whole process of tearing the timing belt out IMO. I'm sure I'm 5* out with my crappy BC 272's straight up. I'd take it to a shop that already had all the tools ready in a heartbeat over swapping out the gears myself.