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Newbie Forum: Beginner/newbie/general DSM modification questions. First mods, how to run 10's when you haven't run 12's yet, any tech question that doesn't fit in another tech forum. Probationary Members must limit their tech posts to this forum and sub-forums.

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Old 01-05-2010, 07:56 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #1 (permalink)
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Degreeing in a cam without adjustable gears?


Just wondering if anyone uses the offset bushings like below to degree in cams? Extremely standard practice in small block v8's.

Just looking strictly at the cost POV. I'd like to retard my exhaust cam a few degrees but have a hard time dishing out the 300 dollars for a set of adjustable cam gears.

Amazon.com: Competition Cams 4760 Cam Degree Bushing: Automotive


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Old 01-05-2010, 08:23 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #2 (permalink)
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Here is the writeup on how to correctly degree 4g63 cams.
4G63 Camshaft Degreeing


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Old 01-05-2010, 08:41 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #3 (permalink)
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Thanks, I'm aware of that method. But to say one method is "right" while all others are wrong is a pretty broad statement.

You can degree in the cam just the same with bushings. I've done it many many times, but not on a DSM product.

Looking more closely at the OEM cams this won't work, so never mind.

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Old 01-05-2010, 08:44 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #4 (permalink)
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I'm not sure how this would work since the cams and cam gears have a locating pin.


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Old 01-05-2010, 08:46 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #5 (permalink)
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couldnt you just move the exhaust cam gear one way a couple teeth?

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Old 01-05-2010, 08:48 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snowborder714 View Post
I'm not sure how this would work since the cams and cam gears have a locating pin.
It is kind of like cam degreeing a V8. They have dowels as well, you have to drill out the hole on the gear itself so it can move on the car and install bushings like the one pictures but smaller. I have not seen these yet for DSM's. Like having an eccentric on the cam like we have in our rear suspension.

** If you move the gear a tooth it can cause valve to piston contact. These are interference motors. **


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Old 01-05-2010, 08:52 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #7 (permalink)
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I'm not familiar with V8's, but that's interesting.


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Old 01-05-2010, 08:58 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #8 (permalink)
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Basically you are making the hole bigger that goes over the dowel so the gear can move with the cam remaining stationary.


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Old 01-05-2010, 09:26 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 95blackGsTurbo View Post
Basically you are making the hole bigger that goes over the dowel so the gear can move with the cam remaining stationary.
Then the offsets push the camshaft forward or backward.

The only real problem I could see is that there are adjustable cam gears for less than $200 that don't require the removal of the cam gear to adjust the phasing. If nobody makes those, then they'll have to be custom done and by the time you're done machining the stock cam gear and getting those made, you may as well have adjustable ones that are easier to work with.


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Old 01-05-2010, 09:30 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #10 (permalink)
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Then the offsets push the camshaft forward or backward.

The only real problem I could see is that there are adjustable cam gears for less than $200 that don't require the removal of the cam gear to adjust the phasing. If nobody makes those, then they'll have to be custom done and by the time you're done machining the stock cam gear and getting those made, you may as well have adjustable ones that are easier to work with.
The bushing doesn't go on the cam it goes over the dowel. The gear is still centered on the cam with the bolt.


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Old 01-05-2010, 09:55 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #11 (permalink)
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You just have to be looking for deals, and be ready to buy when they become available.

I picked up the Hayame adjustable gears that are going on my AWD from a closeout deal on eBay. They were $85 shipped, brand new-in-box. They're a *10* on the bling chart, and they're a hell of a lot easier than fumbling around small degree bushings.


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Old 01-05-2010, 11:03 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #12 (permalink)
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Yea your all right, it would probably be cheaper in the long run to just run the adjustable gears. Just an idea!


Quote:
Originally Posted by IgotBoost91 View Post
couldnt you just move the exhaust cam gear one way a couple teeth?
A "couple teeth" would be a massive change. I'm running the BC stage II cam (272). So they are pretty horrible to start with. Usually requiring around a 5* adjustment. U may get by with 1 tooth, but you'd have to be really careful.

Anyone know how many degrees of offset 1 tooth equals?

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Old 01-05-2010, 11:56 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forcefed86 View Post
Yea your all right, it would probably be cheaper in the long run to just run the adjustable gears. Just an idea!




A "couple teeth" would be a massive change. I'm running the BC stage II cam (272). So they are pretty horrible to start with. Usually requiring around a 5* adjustment. U may get by with 1 tooth, but you'd have to be really careful.

Anyone know how many degrees of offset 1 tooth equals?
I think that the cam gears have 48 teeth so one tooth would be 7.5 deg. Dont quote me on the number of teeth. Just take 360 and divide by the number of teeth and that will give you the answer.

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Old 01-05-2010, 12:18 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by luvmygst View Post
I think that the cam gears have 48 teeth so one tooth would be 7.5 deg.
Fixed.


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Old 01-05-2010, 12:22 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #15 (permalink)
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It's a neat idea but not worth the headache with what adjustable gears cost. I picked mine up for $150 out the door.

Quote:
Originally Posted by forcefed86 View Post
Anyone know how many degrees of offset 1 tooth equals?
360 / # of teeth on the gear


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Old 01-05-2010, 12:29 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #16 (permalink)
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It's a neat idea but not worth the headache with what adjustable gears cost.
Coming from the man who decided to do a compound turbo setup as opposed to just a big single. This should be a cakewalk lol.


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Old 01-05-2010, 12:41 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #17 (permalink)
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Coming from the man who decided to do a compound turbo setup as opposed to just a big single. This should be a cakewalk lol.
But if I could have bought the compound turbo set-up for $400, I would have done just that.


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Old 01-05-2010, 12:43 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #18 (permalink)
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So when you degree a cam you are still infact rotating the cam to make it exatcly at TDC with the timing marks on everything else. I'm assuming it would only really be a partial tooth adjustment which is why you can't just rotate the cam a tooth on it's own. Am I correct on this statement?

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Old 01-05-2010, 01:08 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #19 (permalink)
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I had my FP2's degreed on the stock cam gears, it doesn't take very long either. I was really glad I did too because they were a decent bit out of time and I noticed the difference big time. There's a guy in Florida who is currently making kits for people to do it themselves. He's very active on another DSM forum I'm on but I don't believe he's on here. If anyone wants some more info they can pm me.

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Old 01-05-2010, 01:26 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #20 (permalink)
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So when you degree a cam you are still infact rotating the cam to make it exatcly at TDC with the timing marks on everything else. I'm assuming it would only really be a partial tooth adjustment which is why you can't just rotate the cam a tooth on it's own. Am I correct on this statement?
Correct. Degreeing a camshaft is rotating the cam ever so slightly without moving the cam gear or any other part of the rotating assembly. It's usually a partial tooth adjustment (typically 1-5 degrees which is less than 1 tooth).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Force Fed 4g63 View Post
I had my FP2's degreed on the stock cam gears, it doesn't take very long either. I was really glad I did too because they were a decent bit out of time and I noticed the difference big time. There's a guy in Florida who is currently making kits for people to do it themselves. He's very active on another DSM forum I'm on but I don't believe he's on here. If anyone wants some more info they can pm me.
I'd like to know how you degreed your cams with stock gears.


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