Degreeing in a cam without adjustable gears?

Posted by forcefed86, Jan 5, 2010

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  1. forcefed86

    forcefed86 Proven Member

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    Just wondering if anyone uses the offset bushings like below to degree in cams? Extremely standard practice in small block v8's.

    Just looking strictly at the cost POV. I'd like to retard my exhaust cam a few degrees but have a hard time dishing out the 300 dollars for a set of adjustable cam gears.

    Amazon.com: Competition Cams 4760 Cam Degree Bushing: Automotive 3128J18OeZL._SS500_.jpg
     

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  2. 95blackGsTurbo

    95blackGsTurbo DSM Wiseman

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  3. forcefed86

    forcefed86 Proven Member

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    Thanks, I'm aware of that method. But to say one method is "right" while all others are wrong is a pretty broad statement.

    You can degree in the cam just the same with bushings. I've done it many many times, but not on a DSM product.

    Looking more closely at the OEM cams this won't work, so never mind.
     
  4. snowborder714

    snowborder714 Moderator

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    I'm not sure how this would work since the cams and cam gears have a locating pin.
     
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  5. IgotBoost91

    IgotBoost91 Proven Member

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    couldnt you just move the exhaust cam gear one way a couple teeth?
     
  6. 95blackGsTurbo

    95blackGsTurbo DSM Wiseman

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    It is kind of like cam degreeing a V8. They have dowels as well, you have to drill out the hole on the gear itself so it can move on the car and install bushings like the one pictures but smaller. I have not seen these yet for DSM's. Like having an eccentric on the cam like we have in our rear suspension.

    ** If you move the gear a tooth it can cause valve to piston contact. These are interference motors. **
     
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  7. snowborder714

    snowborder714 Moderator

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    I'm not familiar with V8's, but that's interesting.
     
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  8. 95blackGsTurbo

    95blackGsTurbo DSM Wiseman

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    Basically you are making the hole bigger that goes over the dowel so the gear can move with the cam remaining stationary.
     
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  9. tkelly27

    tkelly27 Proven Member

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    Then the offsets push the camshaft forward or backward.

    The only real problem I could see is that there are adjustable cam gears for less than $200 that don't require the removal of the cam gear to adjust the phasing. If nobody makes those, then they'll have to be custom done and by the time you're done machining the stock cam gear and getting those made, you may as well have adjustable ones that are easier to work with.
     
  10. 95blackGsTurbo

    95blackGsTurbo DSM Wiseman

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    The bushing doesn't go on the cam it goes over the dowel. The gear is still centered on the cam with the bolt.
     
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    1991 Eagle Talon TSi (sold)

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    14b   manual
    1998 Eagle Talon TSi (sold)

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  11. JusMX141

    JusMX141 Moderator

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    You just have to be looking for deals, and be ready to buy when they become available.

    I picked up the Hayame adjustable gears that are going on my AWD from a closeout deal on eBay. They were $85 shipped, brand new-in-box. They're a *10* on the bling chart, and they're a hell of a lot easier than fumbling around small degree bushings.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2010
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  12. forcefed86

    forcefed86 Proven Member

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    Yea your all right, it would probably be cheaper in the long run to just run the adjustable gears. Just an idea!


    A "couple teeth" would be a massive change. I'm running the BC stage II cam (272). So they are pretty horrible to start with. Usually requiring around a 5* adjustment. U may get by with 1 tooth, but you'd have to be really careful.

    Anyone know how many degrees of offset 1 tooth equals?
     
  13. luvmygst

    luvmygst Proven Member

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    I think that the cam gears have 48 teeth so one tooth would be 7.5 deg. Dont quote me on the number of teeth. Just take 360 and divide by the number of teeth and that will give you the answer.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2010
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  14. JusMX141

    JusMX141 Moderator

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    Fixed.
     
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  15. 99gst_racer

    99gst_racer Moderator

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    It's a neat idea but not worth the headache with what adjustable gears cost. I picked mine up for $150 out the door.

    360 / # of teeth on the gear
     
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  16. 95blackGsTurbo

    95blackGsTurbo DSM Wiseman

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    Coming from the man who decided to do a compound turbo setup as opposed to just a big single. This should be a cakewalk LOL.
     
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  17. 99gst_racer

    99gst_racer Moderator

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    ROFL But if I could have bought the compound turbo set-up for $400, I would have done just that. ;)
     
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  18. LiquidX

    LiquidX DSM Wiseman

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    So when you degree a cam you are still infact rotating the cam to make it exatcly at TDC with the timing marks on everything else. I'm assuming it would only really be a partial tooth adjustment which is why you can't just rotate the cam a tooth on it's own. Am I correct on this statement?
     
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  19. Force Fed 4g63

    Force Fed 4g63 Proven Member

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    I had my FP2's degreed on the stock cam gears, it doesn't take very long either. I was really glad I did too because they were a decent bit out of time and I noticed the difference big time. There's a guy in Florida who is currently making kits for people to do it themselves. He's very active on another DSM forum I'm on but I don't believe he's on here. If anyone wants some more info they can pm me.
     
  20. 99gst_racer

    99gst_racer Moderator

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    Correct. Degreeing a camshaft is rotating the cam ever so slightly without moving the cam gear or any other part of the rotating assembly. It's usually a partial tooth adjustment (typically 1-5 degrees which is less than 1 tooth).

    I'd like to know how you degreed your cams with stock gears.
     
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  21. JAXWHITE1G

    JAXWHITE1G Proven Member

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    The guy in Florida would be me. I have built a system to degree OEM cam gears using eccentric bushings. I can adjust the cams in the vehicle 1G and 2G without removing the timing belt. With this system there is no chance of the bolts working loose and the gear slipping time and the eccentrics can be changed quite quickly. Here are some photos.
    The basic tools.
    IMG_2364.jpg
    A machined guide.
    IMG_2366.jpg
    Slide the gear out and install shim to hold it.
    IMG_2367.jpg
    Lock the gear and remove the alignment pin.
    IMG_2369.jpg
    Drill the pin hole to fit the bushing.
    IMG_2371.jpg
    Remove shim and push the gear back on cam.
    IMG_2372.jpg
    Install bushing.
    IMG_2373.jpg
    Install bolt.
    IMG_2374.jpg
    I can get 9 deg adjustment each way at 1 deg intervals.
    AdjustableOEMcamgear.jpg
    AdjustableOEMcamgear3jpg.jpg
    I have done 5 cars now and plan on doing many more. I have machined 150 bushings and updated my tooling from the above. I don't have any updated photos.
    When I get enough posts I'll show off my TMIC in my 1G.
    Mike
     
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  22. Force Fed 4g63

    Force Fed 4g63 Proven Member

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    Speak of the devil Mike! I'm glad you showed up because you can explain it waaaay better than me LOL. Mike very generously degreed my cams for me, and I know for a fact I got the power I did in part because the cams were degreed! Thanks again Mike!
     
  23. ruben2566

    ruben2566 Probationary Member

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    Nice work. Cam gear manufacturers are going to hate you, (Chinese).
     
  24. 99gst_racer

    99gst_racer Moderator

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    Yes, nice work. I guess we now know it's possible to properly do this.

    I can honestly say that I would never do it due to the affordability of aftermarket adjustable gears, but props for figuring it out and getting it done. :thumb:
     
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  25. snowborder714

    snowborder714 Moderator

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    Very neat Mike! If you plan on making the kit to sell to members here, you should look into a Supporting Freelancer account ;)
     
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    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST

    12.529 @ 110.820 MPH
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