Anybody running ethanol free gas?

[bmoha2]

A few of the local gas stations have ethanol free gas. They claim more power, more mileage etc. What is ethanol's purpose in the fuel? Will ethanol free gas be less prone to knocking or more prone? I finished a tank of ethanol gas yesterday and then filled up with ethanol free to see if I feel a difference or the mileage is better.

 

[diggerzmound]

Ethanol has more octane, but will not produce as good mileage.

85% Ethanol will produce 20% less MPG. More power, cooler and cleaner burning, depending on your setup.

 

[bmoha2]

no where near 85% Do you guys have this in other parts of the country?

 

[diggerzmound]

We've had E10 or 10% ethanol for a long time. In the past couple years they introduced e85, it is 85% ethanol, it goes for $2 a gallon. But as I said before its only 80% as efficient as regular unleaded fuel. Search E85, there are some guys here playing with it for big power!

I run E10 in everything, quads, bike, lawn equipment, my truck and cars.

 

[bmoha2]

Is it better to run ethanol free gas or E10?

 

[JayRolla]

Run the stuff with ethanol. It does not affect mileage really at all when its only a 10%-15% mixture but will help reduce a little knock.

E85 is awesome. The stuff is like race gas, but you need a pretty hefty fuel system to run it. Its rated at around only 105 octane but makes a lot more power than 105 octane gas could. It enters at a cooler temp than gas and since you have to run about 30% more fuel at WOT is creats real low exhaust temps.

 

[delta448]

Is it better to run ethanol free gas or E10?

Depends.
More alcohol will mean less knock at the same timing/boost levels, but also a less powerful burn.

Pure alcohol burning funny cars run so cold that I've seen someone grab the exhaust while the car was running. I wasn't brave enough to try it.

 

[Defiant]

What is ethanol's purpose in the fuel?

It's a payoff for Archer-Daniels Midland, and their various lobby and political action committees. It's another crutch for corporate agriculture.

 

[Locke]

Ethanol is used to raise the octane rating of gasoline to usable levels. It replaced tetraethyl lead, which was used for the same purpose from the 20's until 1986, when it was removed from American fuel stations.

Ironically, lead replaced ethanol as the primary octane boosting additive in the early 30's - cost being the biggest contributor. Lead was cheap, ethanol was expensive.

 

[DSMfamily9295]

It's a payoff for Archer-Daniels Midland, and their various lobby and political action committees. It's another crutch for corporate agriculture.

This couldn't be more correct. There were also other factors as well.

Politicians like to say that they are helping clean up the environment by mandating that gas contain a certain percentage of some type of oxygenator to help burn cleaner. For years they used MTBE, till it was linked to contamination of our drinking water. Then they had to find a quick fix before a public backlash, enter the agricultural lobby.
The one thing the pubic generally doesn't realize is that by adding 15% ethanol, your gas mileage slightly DECREASES and over time you end up using the same amount of gasoline and making just as much pollution. But the politicians get to look good for trying, agriculture is happy with fatter pockets and so are the oil companies. Which brings me to the last factor.

Profit margins for the oil companies. For comparison sake, lets say Gasoline cost $1 dollar a gallon to make. Ethanol/MTBE cost .75-.80 cents a gallon. It's cheaper per gallon. These of course are not the real numbers, just an example to get the point across.

If 100 gallons of straight gas costs $100,
Then 100 gallons of E85 cost what?
85 gallons of gas, $85
15 gallons of ethanol $11.25
100 gallons of E85= $96.25 to produce.

Now multiply that by that by the millions of gallons that are sold everyday and you get the point. That $3.75 per 100 gallons of savings in production builds the profit margin up real fast. And of course, the oil companies aren't about to pass the savings on to the consumer.

Also, add in the slight loss of fuel mileage to the scenario.

A car that gets a average of 30mpg on straight gas, may get 29mpg on E85. So over the 100k mile life of a car, you will use more (115 gal), pay more ($345 @ $3 a gal if your lucky) and all the while it cost them 3.75% less to produce.
Total profit for the oil company under this scenario.
Around $360 @ $3/gal average per car.
Now multiply that by just 10 million cars in this country that will hit 100k miles.
THAT'S 3.6 BILLION dollar profit over time for using 15% ethanol.
Again, these are not the real numbers, just examples of why it's used. More profit.

Whooo... sorry about that.. kinda got carried away there.

As far as performance. I drive a gasoline tanker (ship, not truck) for a living and occasionally have access to 100% gas before Ethanol or any other additives are added. The premium is only 91.5 octane so I will only run it in our NA and low boost (15psi or less) cars. There is a slight increase in fuel mileage (1-2 mpg) and a hardly noticeable power increase. However, the difference may have more to do with the fact that I try to get as many miles out of every gallon as possible. At $3.45 a gallon, I'm not really stomping on the gas. If you don't really need the higher octane, and the 100% is cheaper for some reason, go with the 100%. If it's more expensive, the MPG and power increase isn't worth the extra money.

 

[DSMfamily9295]

Ethanol is used to raise the octane rating of gasoline to usable levels. It replaced tetraethyl lead, which was used for the same purpose from the 20's until 1986, when it was removed from American fuel stations.

Ironically, lead replaced ethanol as the primary octane boosting additive in the early 30's - cost being the biggest contributor. Lead was cheap, ethanol was expensive.

The octane of the 100% gas (premium) is 91.5 when it's delivered to the terminals. By the time the ethanol and additives are added, it only increases to 92 (93 for mobil 'cause they put in more additives). 10-15% ethanol has a lot less increase in octane than most people might think.

 

[trunks]

At the risk of getting lam-basted, I feel I must defend..

EthanolFacts.com: Ethanol Quick Facts

Lots of stuff here:
RFA - Resource Center - Ethanol Facts - Food vs. Fuel


I've read too many articles and listened to too many pundants who haven't read any facts on the matter. Lobbiest groups exist for common people to have a voice in Washington. I resently saw a link to join a auto enthusiast organization on this site in support of our sport to fight increasing regulations on autos. There's an old saying that special interest groups are only special when you aren't in favor of their agenda. And yes, I grew up on a farm in the midwest. Please go easy on me

 

[Aftershock13]

All the gas in Utah valley is ethanol free. At least I have yet to find a gas station that has is. When I drove out of the state last year I saw it at almost every gas station, I was like . . . . .WTF?????? Whats eth-o-nol?????? We do things differently around here though, like there less alcohol in the beer. If you want anything besides that you have to take a trip to one of the scarce State controlled liquor stores. I've looked but I cannot find any gas stations around here that sell it. Does the state have to authorize the implementation of ethanol is the gas? Someone told me it was because of the elevation but I've found no supporting evidence.

Does the state have to authorize the implementation of ethanol IN the gas? . . . . . . sorry about the typo.

 

[Defiant]

Politicians like to say that they are helping clean up the environment by mandating that gas contain a certain percentage of some type of oxygenator to help burn cleaner. For years they used MTBE, till it was linked to contamination of our drinking water.

MTBE was a huge issue in California. You might notice the DSM Owner's Manuals state specifically to NOT use motor fuels containing MTBE. Thanks to the help of radio station KSFO, and a sister station in SoCal, the issue brought the largest number of protesters to the State Capitol the building had ever seen. I was there.
When MTBE was introduced into gasoline -it's a waste byproduct of oil refining, and it used to cost the oil companies to dispose of it.... until someone decided to use the gasoline headed out the gate as the dumping ground for it, letting us burn it away in our cars .....I was still driving my '84 Datsun 200SX Turbo. One of the things I liked most about that car was its onboard mileage computer which gave an instant mileage readout. When MTBE fuel hit, I immediately dropped from 33 mpg at 70, to 30. Same stretch of road, weather, time of day, and traffic.
If we had a real press in this country, instead of the bought-and-paid-for News Business, we'd never put up with a third of the shit we do today.

 

[diggerzmound]

I looked at the Ethanol facts link..

I didn't see anywhere that told how much water is used during the production of ethanol. Nor does it mention the large amount of natural gas that is used during the production of ethanol.

They started building the plants left and right here in Nebraska, suddenly the plans to build stopped, investors pulled their funds. Why? Its not a profitable business, huge volumes of water and natural gas nail the profit margins down.

Its not only a crutch for corporate agriculture, its a crutch for all agriculture. The price of a bushel of corn is at an all time high, double what it was 5 years ago. Finally the government isn't having to subsidize the farmers because they are losing money on growing corn.

 

[trunks]

It's still full speed ahead here in MN. According to this it's not unprofitable:

RFA - Resource Center - Ethanol Facts - Economy

Perhaps $6 bushel corn has changed things.

I do conceed it's not the answer to all of our problems, but I think it's better than our current situation. Here's an interesting link:

USGS Product 5

Some of those numbers sound unbelievable, but it is a official US department site.

Gas at $3.29 for 87 octane today here, I plan to run the eclipse on E85 this summer but that's up to $2.69 as well.

 

[trunks]

I did find this on water usage on that website as well:


FACT: Water usage in ethanol production is declining.

Water is required to produce most of the energy we consume. For example, a gallon of gasoline requires anywhere from 2.5-8 gallons of water to produce. The use of all natural resources, including water, in ethanol production is an issue the U.S. ethanol industry takes very seriously. That is why ethanol producers are researching ways to reduce water use. Those efforts are paying off. As a 2007 National Academy of Sciences report noted, "consumptive use of water is declining as ethanol producers increasingly incorporate water recycling and develop new methods of converting feedstocks to fuels that increase energy yields while reducing water use."

I'm trying to find numbers on how much ethanol production uses. I think it's substantial.

 

[trunks]

It looks like the increasing expense to build the plants along with high corn prices is what has caused the slow down and cancellation of some ethanol plants. I found this article on a decidedly anti-ethanol website. It states that it's a victom of it's own success - supply and demand at work:

Facts About Ethanol

 

[lgoss5127]

i didnt even know you could run ethonal free gas in a dsm.

 

[rEclipserGST]

So can i SAFELY run 85% ethanol gas???

 

[trunks]

You would need to upgrad your fuel pump, injectors, and have a way to tune it. Search E85 and you'll find some real good threads.

 

[DougR]

Not to Hijack the thread. but why would you want to use a more expensive and worse Fuel than E-10 (which is Any and All pump gas that contains UPTO 10% Ethanol - Read the pumps labels).
Your Stock System According to the research I have read. Can handle up to 45% ethanol, Before throwing a CEL.

For those of you asking "Can I run E-85 in my STOCK Fuel System: DSM?" or "How mutch can I run in my STOCK Fuel system: DSM" You NEED to search!


I Run 38% E-85 in my 16 gallon tank, Mixed with 93 octane gas that has UPTO 10% Ethanol in it already.

The power gains are Drastic! for sutch a cheap Fuel.
I am confident I could excede the 40% mark easily, as my Logger is showing me Still running Rich. Dont ask for numbers as I will not give them! Mixing this Fuel is a Car to Car basis, and will change!
Do your own research and logging of Your Car! To find that Sweet spot in the mixture.

E-85 discussion

 

[rEclipserGST]

thank you, i didnt think you needed to upgrade anything in order to run ethanol. I mean geeze... we drive turbos