2.3 stroker w/stock injectors & ECU

[taifighter]

Hey guys, I need your opinions. I've got a 95 Talon that's about to go together with a 2.3 stroker, GT30R, huge Slowboy FMIC, DSMlink, injectors, fuel pump, N20, water injection, blah blah blah...

I am considering taking a job down south for a while and want to take the car with me. I want to have the car as reliable as possible, no hassle, no worries.

What do you guys think about having the stock injectors and a stock chip in the ECU with the above listed mods? Running low boost, no N20, no water injection. Especially with a 2.3, what do you think that would do? My goal would be to not have to have a laptop with me ever, just completely rely on the stock equipment.

Then when I come back home I can swap injectors & chips and have her be bad ass while around my home turf.

 

[spoonman]

I suggest you tune the ecu for the stroker kit if you are running boost. The stock injectors will be okay but you have to run low boost so you don't lean out.

 

[taifighter]

Yeah, low boost would equal greater fuel economy, so that's fine with me. Just a wideband and EGT gauge should be enough to help me monitor for leaning out.

 

[1g_tsi_awd]

But keep in mind what my dad has told me numerous times... "cheap, reliable, and fast... Pick two because you can never have all three."

You should look into getting a cheap DD, like a 1g or 2g n/t.

 

[AWDstylez]

It'll be fine. Keep the boost low, the MAF can read the extra air and the O2 will trim your part throttle fuel close enough for you to drive around on.

 

[Boo5t_Addict]

Personally, I would never try it. You can have a car that's decently tuned with DSMLink, an upgraded fuel pump and injectors, and run higher boost, but still see decent gas mileage (for a stroker). Just don't boost all the time, it's as simple as that. It's not like you'll be bogging all around town with the low-end torque that you have with your stroker. Besides, to have a stock fuel system and ecu is a complete and utter waste on a setup like yours. Seriously, GT30 and stroker? That's a higher horsepower setup. Just don't boost all the time. Otherwise, you may as well just sell your car, because there's no point. Heck, with a good tune and a GT40 you could still have decent fuel economy, as long as you stay out of boost.

 

[vaboys2ndgen]

1000cc injectors, dsmlink ftw!!

i dont think its a safe idea at all. def. need some kind of tuning software in their.

 

[taifighter]

I've already got a DD, and as far as having stock fuel system & ECU goes, it's just as easily switched back when the time and place is appropriate. I'm not asking for practicality opinions, I'm asking if it will work. The practicality is my decision. Everybody knows not to drive around in boost if you want good fuel economy. Having a car pegged for low boost only ensures that.

If I did this set up, with the stock injectors and low boost, I can use DSMlink to monitor what it does under all conditions. I'll find an appropriate boost level, use the water injection, etc. to find a way to use stock ECU with it. A detuned race car is fine with me because I know its potential is still with me... I'm just choosing not to unleash it.

So, is there a way to get the stock settings that the ECU would have while I have the DSMlink chip in?

 

[snox135]

It will work but it won't make it anymore reliable. You will need to have your chip reflashed with link and stock settings. If you want to continue to use link. Your car will be more reliable leaving your bigger injectors in and properly tuned.

 

[BenGSX]

Not a chance in hell.. Will not work at all..

You will ABSOLUTELY HAVE to upgrade your injectors..

I just finished tuning a stroker running an e3 16g.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265393

550 cc injectors werent enough to even run the e3 at 10 psi.. period..

the e3 on the stroker maxes out 660cc injectors at 17 lbs of boost..

a gt30r on a 2.3 stroker on stock injectors??!?!?!?! HAHAHAHHAHHAHAAHHAHHA

In fact.. for breakin we were running a 14b turbo on that motor.. 550cc injectors were reaching over 90% duty cycle at 15lbs on the 14b.. It was running a little rich.. but 450's wouldnt have hacked it at all.. even on the stock turbo..

You would be suprised how much more airflow your talking about with such a small increase in displacement..

Reading logs on the MAF frequency the stroker was running well over 15% more air than most similiarly setup 2.0 DSM..


I would never run a stroker with ANY injector without SOME kind of tuning..

Plus most of the stroker pistons have increased compression..

ANd even without increased compression you have to compensate with a little less timing to prevent knock from flame front contact thanks to the faster piston speed..
so that requires chip level tuning..

On pump gas with the e3 16g 17-18 degrees of timing was the absolute MAX that the 9:1 2.3 stroker could handle safely..

A stock ecu will be shooting for over 20degrees and only over time will it pull out timing via the octane value as it detects knock.. the entire time beating the hell outta your pretty stroker with too much timing..

So if you want a hack jobber typical DSMER stroker.. go for it..

 

[taifighter]

Finally, some useful info. Thanks, BenGSX. Pretty bad, though, that there are so many DSMers who have hack jobs. I've seen it, trust me. Not the road I want to go down.

Is there anyone who has concrete proof that this wouldn't work, besides just an educated opinion?

 

[BenGSX]

I doubt anyone with a 2.3 stroker and a gt30r has ever even tried stock injectors..

Even if somehow the 450's didnt max out with the 30r at low boost you would still have too much timing to run the motor without killing it..

You would need a chip anyways..

Considering you can get a custom chip for around 60 bucks and injectors for 300 its pretty cheap insurance..

 

[taifighter]

Any reccomendations for what chip to look at? This is getting me closer to my goal. This is what I was looking for. I never thought about chips, because I've always been partial to full management like DSMlink or AEM EMS, etc.

 

[BenGSX]

ALSO!!

Whoever burns the chip for you..

make sure you DO NOT use the Octane Reset feature..

On a 2.3 stroker the Octane value in the ecu (limits total timing as a function of monitoring knocksum over time) is useful for keeping the engine safe..

Without serious dyno tuning for the timing curve (which is a lot different on a stroker than a 2.0) its better to have a safety in the ecu to keep the knock down.

 

[taifighter]

So, with my above listed mods, what kind of performance level can I expect? Do you have a 'low' performance level so I dont have to have any worries? Give me some details.

 

[dsm-onster]

Not a chance in hell.. Will not work at all..

You will ABSOLUTELY HAVE to upgrade your injectors..

I just finished tuning a stroker running an e3 16g.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265393

550 cc injectors werent enough to even run the e3 at 10 psi.. period..

the e3 on the stroker maxes out 660cc injectors at 17 lbs of boost..

a gt30r on a 2.3 stroker on stock injectors??!?!?!?! HAHAHAHHAHHAHAAHHAHHA

In fact.. for breakin we were running a 14b turbo on that motor.. 550cc injectors were reaching over 90% duty cycle at 15lbs on the 14b.. It was running a little rich.. but 450's wouldnt have hacked it at all.. even on the stock turbo..

You would be suprised how much more airflow your talking about with such a small increase in displacement..

Reading logs on the MAF frequency the stroker was running well over 15% more air than most similiarly setup 2.0 DSM..


I would never run a stroker with ANY injector without SOME kind of tuning..

Plus most of the stroker pistons have increased compression..

ANd even without increased compression you have to compensate with a little less timing to prevent knock from flame front contact thanks to the faster piston speed..
so that requires chip level tuning..

On pump gas with the e3 16g 17-18 degrees of timing was the absolute MAX that the 9:1 2.3 stroker could handle safely..

A stock ecu will be shooting for over 20degrees and only over time will it pull out timing via the octane value as it detects knock.. the entire time beating the hell outta your pretty stroker with too much timing..

So if you want a hack jobber typical DSMER stroker.. go for it..

That's BS or you have a boost leak. You can run 10 psi all day long on on a 2.3 and 450s. . . You had problems. But I've boosted a small 16g to 15psi and FMIC on 450s. If you had more airflow than me: tell me how you measured your airflow.

You obviously don't understand that a gt30r flows w/in 1-2 lbs/min of a 14b at 15 psi.

 

[taifighter]

Well, dsm-onster, what do you think? What's a way to achieve this goal? Go stock, or buy a low performance chip and use my current setup?

I can't believe so many people have so many varying views on this.

 

[project_tsi]

With DSMlink and large injectors, you can adjust the cars fuel and other trims any way you like.

You can actually pick up mileage by tuning DSMlink the way you want it, over a stock ecu, considering the stock ecu runs very rich from the factory.

 

[taifighter]

Yeah, that's true... but, as stated above, I don't want to have to carry a laptop with me if I take this job, dont want to have to worry about losing or having my prize posession cable stolen, dont want to have to re-load data if I lose power... don't wanna deal with DSMlink when I'm away from home, and I'm prepared to deal with a detuned and less powerful car for that time. Easy and reliable.

C'mon, read all the posts before you reply.

 

[project_tsi]

C'mon, read all the posts before you reply.

I did.

Still even so. Get the link setup, and then tune your car to the way you want it, and remove the laptop and your prize possession cable.

IMO its stupid to want to run 2 ecu's, at any time, when one can do the exact job that your describing it needing to do.

 

[BenGSX]

That's BS or you have a boost leak. You can run 10 psi all day long on on a 2.3 and 450s. . . You had problems. But I've boosted a small 16g to 15psi and FMIC on 450s. If you had more airflow than me: tell me how you measured your airflow.

You obviously don't understand that a gt30r flows w/in 1-2 lbs/min of a 14b at 15 psi.

There were no boost leaks.

The car ran a 12.431 @ 111.6xx At only 17 lbs of boost on the E3 (With my buddy a new driver and a 1.9 60')

If i remembered anything wrong it was that we might have maxed out the 550's closer to 15 psi on the E3 (Monitored with logger and WB o2)..
And it was a 272 cammed..

Before you flame on.. Consider this..

How cheap do you have to be to run a 2.3 stroker w/ a gt30r with stock injectors anyways?
(I think that speaks volumes)

If thats what you suggest.. By all means..

 

[oldman]

Sell the GT30R and put in a 14b, it will put some money in your pocket while giving you better spool. ......... Seriously.

Not a chance in hell.. Will not work at all..

You will ABSOLUTELY HAVE to upgrade your injectors..

I just finished tuning a stroker running an e3 16g.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265393

550 cc injectors werent enough to even run the e3 at 10 psi.. period..

the e3 on the stroker maxes out 660cc injectors at 17 lbs of boost..

a gt30r on a 2.3 stroker on stock injectors??!?!?!?! HAHAHAHHAHHAHAAHHAHHA

In fact.. for breakin we were running a 14b turbo on that motor.. 550cc injectors were reaching over 90% duty cycle at 15lbs on the 14b.. It was running a little rich.. but 450's wouldnt have hacked it at all.. even on the stock turbo..

You would be suprised how much more airflow your talking about with such a small increase in displacement..

Reading logs on the MAF frequency the stroker was running well over 15% more air than most similiarly setup 2.0 DSM..


I would never run a stroker with ANY injector without SOME kind of tuning..

Plus most of the stroker pistons have increased compression..

ANd even without increased compression you have to compensate with a little less timing to prevent knock from flame front contact thanks to the faster piston speed..
so that requires chip level tuning..

On pump gas with the e3 16g 17-18 degrees of timing was the absolute MAX that the 9:1 2.3 stroker could handle safely..

A stock ecu will be shooting for over 20degrees and only over time will it pull out timing via the octane value as it detects knock.. the entire time beating the hell outta your pretty stroker with too much timing..

So if you want a hack jobber typical DSMER stroker.. go for it..

BOOST LEAK TEST!!!!!

BTW, do not promote your own business on the forums, thank you.

 

[absolute_DSM]

Just a word of advice to taifighter and no disrespect to anyone since this is just a forum and we dont know each other personally - Listen to the wiseman and guys with good reps like dsm-onster. They have that status for a reason.

I know its been said, but I would suggest picking up a 2g NT as a DD = not putting mileage on your stroker setup + getting great gas mileage.

I would be proud to have a stroker and have to carry a laptop around. Shows you know what the hell you are doing.

 

[taifighter]

Well, dsm-onster says I'll be ok... wiseman project tsi says I won't.

Hmm....

I'm very proud of my investment, and when I'm on my home turf I'm sure I'll be driving around with my laptop, datalogging and such, but I have to worry about what MIGHT be happening. I dont want to have my DD anymore, it was my x-wife's car and I am trying to get rid of it so I have no ties or associations with that life anymore. With the Talon being newly rebuilt, she's as good as a brand new ride and if I have to plug in a couple chips here and there to ensure she's going to be reliable, then so be it. Not a big deal in my eyes... takes 5 minutes.

 

[taifighter]

And to project tsi, I mean no disrespect with the 'read the posts' comment, I just wanted everyone to know that I want a hassle free setup for a few months.

What about having a stage 1 or 2 chip put in? Can anybody tell me anything about these chips, share some opinions/experiences WITHOUT trying to make a dollar?