injector recomindations

[91-gsx]

i was wondering what are the best type, brand and size of injectors i should get if i am going to get a 50 or 60 trim later down the line, but will use the 14b for a while.
thanks in advance

 

[ken inn]

i have NEVER had a problem with denso's. i HAVE had problems with fic delphis, and rc lucas.

 

[99gst_racer]

Well, if you are running stock boost on the 14b, then stick with the stock injectors for now. Get the injectors when you get the 50-trim. Keep in mind you will also need to get a host of other parts for the fuel system (ei. fuel pump, adjustable regulator, fuel controller, etc....) Many people seem to be satisfied with these injectors. I will be purchasing a set of their 650's this coming Friday.

 

[Coup D E'Tat]

Myself and many other locals have had great sucess with Denso and RC, but many people are buying the FIC ball-and-disk type now.

Whatever brand/style you buy, I'd go with nothing less than 660's.

 

[JPGRL]

I was maxing out (107% duty cycle) my stock injectors on my 14b @ 17psi. I got an AFC, a socketed EPROM ECU, and 750cc injectors. They run great, and I shouldn't need to replace them again anytime soon.

 

[tsi4ya]

well what size turbo do u plan on running later on down the line? if not go with 510's that should hold u down ok, thats what am planning when i buy my upgrade.

 

[Turbo Talon DL]

i have NEVER had a problem with denso's. i HAVE had problems with fic delphis, and rc lucas.

I want a set of Denso injectors also, but they cost almost twice as much as the others and the others are ball/disc types , but you get what you pay for. I have heard a few horror stories about FICs as well, but not the others. Would you care to further elaborate?

 

[99gst_racer]

Where is the best place/cheapest place to get Denso injectors?
I would like to learn more about them.....

 

[MigTalon]

Siemens Deka fuel injectors 83lb... best reliability combined with MAFT Translator...

 

[ken inn]

I want a set of Denso injectors also, but they cost almost twice as much as the others and the others are ball/disc types , but you get what you pay for. I have heard a few horror stories about FICs as well, but not the others. Would you care to further elaborate?

sure. 91 galant vr4. with ported big 16g, hks 264's, water injection, 2g mas, evo 6 560's. at 7100, inj duty cycles were 86-87%, 18 lbs boost. water injection brought them down, but i tune without to be safe. i upgraded to an evo 3 turbo, and was planning to go 20 lbs, so i wanted more injector. bought a brand new set of fic 650's, ball/disc are supposed to be better injectors. well, i had all kinds of tuning problems. hella knock, like 15+, and duty cycles above 90%. idle was crap, i had to keep changing the afc. i tune with pocketlogger. i finally started pulling boost(profec b2) back to 12 lbs, knock went way down, idc dropped to low 80's, but wtf? my old 450's were this good(at that time, i had 3kgtvr4 fuel pump, rewired,now supra tt). keydiver chip, with change in dead time, specifically chipped for the delphi's. everything pointed to the injectors. i finally got a set of cleaned and flowed denso 660's, installed them, and voila, back up to 18 lbs boost, idc was 69-72% NO KNOCK, really good idle, part throttle. AND THE CHIP WAS STILL THE DELPHI CHIP. i gave the fic's to jeff. i complained to fic, did not hear one word back, not even a GET F@#$ED. well, the company i work for sells fic reman stuff. i dont. i refuse to. besides the factory 450's i also had a set of old rx7 550's i bought off of ebay. every set of injectors i get, i have cleaned and flowed. unless they are brand new. the denso rx7 injectors were stuck shut, but several ultrasounds and overnite soaking in solution brought them back, and they all flowed within 1%. then, i got a deal on the evo 6 injectors. in between this, i had 2 sets of lucas injectors, i have a local shop that does the cleaning and flowing for me. on at least 1 injector in each group of 4 was stuck wide open. the guy(very good friend of mine) still laughs and calls them a fire hose. shoot 6 tiny streams of cleaner clear across the room. also, i sell bmw parts for a living. a while ago, bmw had lucas injectors in some of their cars. under secret warranty, they were quietly changed out to bosch, no questions asked. at the same time, a sib came out warning about hydrolock. if a car with lucas injectors came in for service, the bosch ones were switched immediatly, the owners never knew. i was also told that some of the delphis are rated at 59 psi fuel pressure, the international standard is 3 bar(43.5). several others in the galant vr4 group have had tuning problems with delphi injectors. only with standalone can you can adjust for the huge dead time. the reason delphi's are all over the place is because they are cheap, and companies can make more profit on them. also, when i install injectors, i also install new seals, new fuel filter, i dont reuse anything. the delphi's SUCK.

 

[Turbo Talon DL]

Thanks, thats the type of explanation i was looking for, good insight as in why not to buy cheap(er) injectors. I want good ones still, but dont wanna sell my spleen or a kidney to afford them. Denso 550s from Road Race are $440. I dont have a chip yet and wont have one for months, so thats why im holding off on anything larger than 550s. I dont wanna compensate -30% on the AFC, i dont feel that its good to do that and still try to run on the factory maps. I was going to use my MSD to counter the timing advance associated with compensating with the AFC, but i dont know how the ecu will react to the AFC and an MSD working against each other. I dont want my new engine being the guinea pig either... Im kind of at a loss right now as what to get. I dont want large injectors yet cause' i dont want to band-aid the fuel system, but i need good injectors (larger than stock, running higher than stock boost) at a good price. I dont buy used parts anymore because they usually need some sort of reconditioning. I dont trust people enough any more to buy important used parts and have them be good.

BTW im adding on your rating/reputation

 

[99gst_racer]

ken inn - You seem to have alot of experience with injectors, so I hope you dont mind that I'm directing my question toward you. How do you feel about the PTE injectors?? What's the the other type of injector other than the ball-and-disk style? Who else makes/sells Denso style injectors??

 

[daren_p]

ken inn - You seem to have alot of experience with injectors, so I hope you dont mind that I'm directing my question toward you. How do you feel about the PTE injectors?? What's the the other type of injector other than the ball-and-disk style? Who else makes/sells Denso style injectors??

PTE Injectors are made by the same company as the FIC injectors. The only difference is that FIC supposily puts on a different end to fit dsm's better. Also I hear that the PTE are over rated on their flow. For example FIC makes 750's & PTE make 780's if you look at the different correction factors they give you with dsmlink you will see that the factor for the PTE's is less then the FIC's even though they are rated at 30 cc more. When I was asking about the differences before I bought injectors many people had said they found the same thing with PTE, over rated. Most people had good luck with the FIC's, thats what I ended up getting so I guess well see.

 

[ken inn]

ken inn - You seem to have alot of experience with injectors, so I hope you dont mind that I'm directing my question toward you. How do you feel about the PTE injectors?? What's the the other type of injector other than the ball-and-disk style? Who else makes/sells Denso style injectors??

a lot of my experiences have been bad. i used to work in a shop, and now i sell parts for a living. i get my injectors cleaned and flowed by a local shop for free, as a favor. so i have learned from them. when i was in the shop, injector service was common, but this was all german cars, no mitsus. also, i picked up habits from the shop, like i never reuse seals, gaskets, etc. i always get new stuff. i also think it is cheap insurance to get injectors cleaned and flowed prior to installation. even tho they were only used by a little ole lady who only drove her car to church once a week.
the ball/disc injectors are supposedly better than the single pintile, but the delphi's are crap, imho. and, as stated, they dont follow the international standard, so how do you know what you are getting? if you take 450's and run them at 60 psi pressure, you probably get the same ratings. like i say, the only reason they are so plentiful is because they are cheap, and companies can make more profit on them. i think you should look for a set of evo 8 injectors, lots of guys are upgrading, and they can be had for a good price. and they put out about 600cc, and have the same dead time.

 

[91-gsx]

well for now i have the maft setup and need bigger injectors becuase i am hitting fuel cut. so i am actaully running my injectors on the maft setup as 430's. and i have brought down the knock to 2 and the car is still cutting and sputtering before fuel cut. so you have all decided that one of the best injectors you can get are the denso's, greddy is the same right? anyway i am thinking of running them on the maft as lower then what they are and then lean it out until i get no knock and no fuel cut. sounds like it would work for me. anyway i am thinking of going with denso's or any other brand you can recommend, and i am going to get either a 50 trim or 60 trim down the line, most probably a 60 trim, what size injectors should i buy if i want to run a 60 trim, but still use for now on my 14b?

 

[Turbo Talon DL]

As soon as I saw this, i felt obligated to inform people that this guy is spreading mis-information and bad advertising!! http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7971530526&category=33554
WTF Why do people do stupid dumb sh*t like this? Thats so inaccurate according to what he has posted for his advertisement.....If anybody else agrees, please post ASAP or PM me. I wanna flame this guy SSSOOOO bad!! First off, he has them advertised as 50lb, 500cc injectors, second off, says thats what they're flow rated @43.5 psi, third they're high impedance, but yet says they work on DSMs...anybody with 1/4 of a brain knows otherwise. Next, he claims they're good for 825 hp . He has cars listed that dont even have peak and hold fuel systems like our cars, and still claims they're good for us, NO!! Maybe thats why nobodys placed a bid on them yet Im gonna ask this guy why he's doing stupid stuff like this. If anybody else feels like helping the cause, feel free to join. I dont mind keeping people from blowing their engines.

 

[grans0o]

I'd say pick up some Stock EVO VIII injectors. They'd be practically new and I know you could pick them up for cheap and they plug right in.

 

[Turbo Talon DL]

I'd say pick up some Stock EVO VIII injectors. They'd be practically new and I know you could pick them up for cheap and they plug right in.

From where? Ebay doesnt have any and i dont buy used parts unless its through ebay...

 

[91-gsx]

you say the evo 8 injectors are good ones to get, but for a 50 or 60 trim? they are only 600cc, will that be enough? and you also say they have the same dead time as the stockers, but what is deadtime? and will i not have this deadtime with something else, like denso injectors? and without this deadtime what will happen? please explain because this is the first time i am reading up and learning about injectors, it would help a lot.
thanks in advance.

 

[99gst_racer]

click me for a brief explanation of deadtime

 

[91-gsx]

hey, about those dsm chips, does he send you the chip? and if he does, does it just plug in or do you have to solder it on? i think they only work for certain ecu's right? how do i know if my ecu will work?
thanks

 

[notractiongst]

ive had my FIC 650s for over a year now and theyre still working fine on my PTE SCM61 ...i will buy FICs again... and also PTE injectors arent "Overrated" t theyre just rated at different fuel pressure

 

[90REkTSi]

How do you go about choosing the right injector size for your car? What factors do you need to take into considerations? I'm still a newbie at fuel tuning, but i liked Ken inn's explination stated earlier. Would 660's with a rewired 190 plus supporting mods be overkill for a 14B @ 18-20 psi? Don't mean to hijack the thread just looking for the same answers.

I intend to run a 2g MAF on my 1G, but cant do it without more fuel right? I know imma need a logger, EPROM ECU Keydiver III/DSMLink, at least a 190 pump and "BIGGER" injectors. Injector sizing is what i'm having trouble with. Anything else i'm missing?
I also remember someone saying something about running higher fuel pressures to extend the capabilities of a lower "cc" injector. Anyone care to elaborate on that subject? Also still confused about FIC's, good or bad idea?

Thanks in advance!

 

[sweet97]

hey, about those dsm chips, does he send you the chip? and if he does, does it just plug in or do you have to solder it on? i think they only work for certain ecu's right? how do i know if my ecu will work?
thanks

Yes you get a chip from keydiver at DSMCHIPS.
No it does not just plug in.
You need to have a "socket" for the chip soldered in place of the stock EPROM.
You do need an EPROM ECU. Pull the ECU and open it up.
Check out www.vfaq.com for pics of an EPROM ECU. I bought anEPROM ECU from www.ffwdconnection.com It was socketed and has new caps. $330. dsmchip is a great value at $115. as DSMlink is around $565. and need a laptop I believe. mark

 

[Turbo Talon DL]

I ran upon this little bit of information. It actually PRAISES the Lucas design. I was like WTF like you probably are right now, but read on:
http://www.turbosaturns.net/articles/injectors.htm
Dont just gaff this off, it actually interested me. It kinda told me what I wanted to hear, an honest, technical, non-biased comparison.