420A Internals / HP Question

[Talon-Renegade]

I'm kinda new, bought a '98 Talon ESi.

Don't know a whole lot about the car really, still young .

I'm looking to make a little horsepower (250 - 300), without spending an overwhelming load of cash.

I've breifly looked around, there are a number of improvements, but I'm just not sure what is the best to start off with. Also, I don't want to be pulling my engine out and tearing down my engine completely, replacing rods and pistons if I can help it ... as of now. Will the stock internals handle the horsepower range I'm aiming for?

I've seen turbo kits, cams and gears, intakes / manifolds, fuel rails / injectors / pumps / regulators, ECMs, exhaust systems.

And I do realize, installing one these upgrades, may require other upgrades.

You guys are the ones with experience, so where do I make my start?

 

[NeMiZiS]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/420a-bolt-tech/283000-203-8whp-169tq-na-barrier-has-been-broken.html

250-300 HP probably isn't going to happen, Bulletdsm has the fastest (to my knowledge) n/a 420a . So I'd take a look at his list of mods and you'll get an idea of what it took him just to reach 200 HP.
I'm not saying 250-300 HP on a 420 isn't possibly, but I don't think any one has done it without a turbo yet...
So basically I would say no, you can't reach these goals with stock internals , or with no turbo.

 

[Redwidow]

well to answer your question, yes the internals will hold up, but your not going to make that much HP just by doing bolt ons. Really about the only things you can do without tearing the engine apart are intake, exhaust, and maybe a plug wire/coilpack upgrade. A turbo upgrade would be the way to go but on stock internals you wouldnt want to run more then 5-7 psi. Unfortuanately there isnt a hole lot you can do without tearing into the motor. You can upgrade the cams, but then you have to reset teh timing and all that too. Hope this helps and keep us posted.

 

[striker827]

A Little hp?? thats quite some jump (250-300) after tons of digging in this site it comes down to time and money. Unfortunately it isn't as easy as you put it... (dont get me wrong, i wish it was) but just to give you a "Blueprint" you'r going to have to build the bottom end, get a turbo kit... or just build a kit yourself depending on what you "like" and tune it with a good fuel management system.

I know im not being specific, but you have to start some where then move up to the next level... just remember this quote. Do it right or Do it Twice

 

[rstare]

Do it right or Do it Twice

Hehe. I know that quote...

Actually the stock internals can handle closer to 14psi on a good tune. I know they handle at least 10psi on an sfmu .
If you were to get MSnS; which requires alot of work but doesn't require tearing down the engine and get yourself a good turbo kit you could run 14psi. This would put you very close to your goals if not right in them.

Edit: Not sure how much you mean by "overwhelming amounts of cash", but if you plan on turbo be prepared for $1,500.
Welcome to the Forums

 

[Draggin]

I was lookin for the same goals when I upgraded my car (250-300). I went with a Hahn Racecraft stage II kit beacause it will be safe with stock internals. Stock internals will hold 10-12psi reliably. The kit was a little pricy but i had a couple dollars to spend. I thought it was a good start because to go from stage II to stage III it is as easy as getting the super 20g and swapping out the super 16g. So when I get around to pistons and rods the boost upgrade will be simple and cheap, about $500 when i return the core 16g.

 

[Redwidow]

Ok I agree stock internals can hold that much but I was just saying to be safe and reliable you dont want to be pushing that much all the time. I think 5-7 is a good reliable pressure and if you want to run more for some fun once in a while, crank up the boost controller and let 'er rip.

 

[Talon-Renegade]

I was lookin for the same goals when I upgraded my car (250-300). I went with a Hahn Racecraft stage II kit beacause it will be safe with stock internals. Stock internals will hold 10-12psi reliably. The kit was a little pricy but i had a couple dollars to spend. I thought it was a good start because to go from stage II to stage III it is as easy as getting the super 20g and swapping out the super 16g. So when I get around to pistons and rods the boost upgrade will be simple and cheap, about $500 when i return the core 16g.

Was this the only part of the upgrade? I'm assuming you have MS / upgraded fuel system to compete with the turbo.

Where do I find MS, and what exactly should I be buying from them? What all do I have to get to run MS?

 

[Locke]

Built MegaSquirts can be found all over the place - SymTech Labs, DIYautotune, RSautosport, and even eBay, among others, as well as can be assembled for you by various members here and 2gnt.com.

Needed parts will depend on the completeness of the kit, if you get a kit.

 

[Draggin]

Not sure what MS means.... (Management System?) It came with a piggyback. And yes with the stage II kit it came with bigger injectors, walbro 255lph pump, and a fuel return system with manual fuel pressure regulator. That's the difference between stage I and stage II is the fuel system upgrade. It comes with a SMIC but I opted for the FMIC because I have future plans for stage III. Wish i still lived in Toronto, the turbo would probably run so much faster in the cold weather.

 

[Talon-Renegade]

So everyone would agree that a turbo kit / MegaSquirt kit would be a good start for my goal?

Unless the kit already comes with a fuel upgrade system like 'Draggin' mentioned?

 

[rstare]

So everyone would agree that a turbo kit / MegaSquirt kit would be a good start for my goal?

Unless the kit already comes with a fuel upgrade system like 'Draggin' mentioned?

Tuning fuel/ignition is what limits how much boost you can run. Most people start with a 12:1 fmu and stock injectors for fuel. With this setup you can only run 8psi. The next step up would be an sfmu with bigger injectors.
The ultimate in tuning for us is MS.
I suggested MS because you said you wanted to keep your internals stock. The tuning ability on a 12:1 fmu is none and a sfmu is limited. But with MS your wide open.

If I were you, I would start with a simple turbo kit and 8psi; with the 12:1 fmu setup. Or you can go with the sfmu and bigger injectors for a step up (that's what I did). Then you can go from there.
I would first start by doing a compression test though, to get an idea of what kind of shape your engine is in.

 

[96TurboGS]

It's all about your goals, IMO there isn't a max psi the stock internals can take. That depends on the turbo being used along with your tune and condition of the rods and pistons (how many miles, ware and tear, ect. ect). If your new at the 420a scene and have no tuning knowledge, I would take it one step at a time. Get the small stuff and over time when you learn everything you can about the engine go into the big stuff like MS, ect. All it takes is one boost spike and your motor is gone. I think 250-300 is possible depending on how good your tune is. I agree x10 with the do it right the first time and don't half ass things, because it will come back to bite you in you're A$$. 16g would be a great turbo to start out with....

 

[Talon-Renegade]

Not sure how reasonable my take is, but I don't want to start somewhere with small stuff, then get bored of it, swap it out, replace it bigger and better as the years go on. I'm %100 with the "Do it right or Do it twice" . LoL sorry if I'm being confusing. So if my goal is set around 300hp, Then I take it I should probably start my adventure at the core and do the internals before I move onto the power upgrades.

 

[96TurboGS]

Forge Internals is the way to go. After that you will have to worry about your tranny and clutch depending on how hard you drive your car, ..it never ends.

 

[Talon-Renegade]

Alright well atleast I know where I should start. Thanks everyone for the quick respones, and I'll keep everyone up to date when the rebuild commences.

 

[barza21]

Not sure how reasonable my take is, but I don't want to start somewhere with small stuff, then get bored of it, swap it out, replace it bigger and better as the years go on. I'm %100 with the "Do it right or Do it twice" . LoL sorry if I'm being confusing. So if my goal is set around 300hp, Then I take it I should probably start my adventure at the core and do the internals before I move onto the power upgrades.

Good man.

You said that you dont wanna waste that much cash, now how much is not much cash for you? 2000.00, 5000.00, 10000.00, etc... get my point.

Up to my knowledge, I can put together a engine rebuild kit (forged) with 1500.00. That would still leave me with enough for the machine work and and the MSnS.

You can put together a decent turbo kit with 2000.00. In total that is 3500.00 and you have an engine that is built and able to handle 400whp EASY, which is a lot of power!

So just read up, since you are kinda new to the scene, take your and do it right like everyone is saying.

Good luck.

 

[Talon-Renegade]

You said that you dont wanna waste that much cash, now how much is not much cash for you? 2000.00, 5000.00, 10000.00, etc... get my point.

If I really had to toss out a number, I don't think I'd want to spend more than $3500 on the motor, alone. The car needs alot more done than just performance. Body is rough, needs new suspension.

Up to my knowledge, I can put together a engine rebuild kit (forged) with 1500.00. That would still leave me with enough for the machine work and and the MSnS.

Now are you saying that you sell kits? Or are you saying that you just know how to aquire one by yourself? If you can sell me a forged rebuild kit for $1500, I'll take it

 

[tegster1]

If youre looking into tearing out the motor first I would suggest this Modern Performance Racing Products if you want to just buy a kit for the bottom end and be done. Comes with everything you need for the bottom end other than tools/knowledge to do it. The cheapest rod/piston combo I have seen is $800, just the two. Add that to lets say $2500 (or less) in turbo parts/tuning and theres your $3500 for a fully built motor and turbo well within your goal. If you buy everything brand new it will run you that or more. Things such as the turbo isnt a bad way to go buying new opposed to used. Other parts, however, you can get used and for a lot cheaper but thats up to you. I have seen many MS assemblies being sold over at 2gnt.com as well.

Dont forget though you will want some gauges to monitor everything as well which will add a few more hundred probably to your total.

 

[barza21]

If I really had to toss out a number, I don't think I'd want to spend more than $3500 on the motor, alone. The car needs alot more done than just performance. Body is rough, needs new suspension.



Now are you saying that you sell kits? Or are you saying that you just know how to aquire one by yourself? If you can sell me a forged rebuild kit for $1500, I'll take it

, I don't sell kits.

If you look around and are a little patient you can get some pretty sweet deals on parts. For example, like a month ago I saw a set for eagle h beam rods forged, go for around 250.00 on 2gnt. And before that I saw some pistons like for 350.00. So it is just a matter of looking.

As far as modern performance, I personally recommend it. All my head rebuild parts were bought thru them. The pistons and the rods were bought thru howell automotive, but that was because I went with a long rod set up and they were the only ones that carried the pistons for those rods. If you are gonna go standard length rod, then just go thru moder performance, the kit offered has a decent price and brings almost everything you need.

 

[axeeclipse]

exactly. i bought a set of eagle long rods for 120.00 shipped off 2gnt. brand new still in the box. patience is a virtue. look around, and while your at it keep soaking up information and if you havent already, come join 2gnt.com

 

[SohcBigTurbo]

I've ran 12psi daily driven on a completely stock bottom/top end SOHC neon engine for about 6 months, just running 30lb injectors. I blew that car up tho.....rear main desided to check out....

I would say for turbo, get a SOHC MTX neon computer (least amount of timing)
450cc 4g63t injectors and the resistor box for them
Run a 1:1 FPR
buy an ebay t3/t4 turbo kit. (rebuild the turbo tho.....there is always too much crap in an ebay turbo)
ebay fmic
12-14psi should be fine with that set-up

 

[Locke]

 

[Defiant]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/hangout/317304-yet-another-tc-420a-gsx.html#post151690439