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420a HP and HP potential.

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Siral3x said:
Trucloner11 the 420A is not really worth the money because most upgrades/turbo kits are far beyound a 17 year old budget

:toobad: wow.. True, most teenagers don't pull in a large amount of money from month to month, but usually if they have a car, they make enough. This was also made, to help those with a lower income achieve the many pleasures of boost.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181134

Siral3x said:
I would sell the car and look out for a low millage GST/GSx if you really want the "PHsss" sound.

Us 420a guys are pretty laid back for the most part, but you'll quickly learn that when you recommend an aspiring 420aT'er sell their car and buy a factory turbo car, well..We just don't like that.

And regaurding the "PHsss" sound, when 420a is turbo'd we don't need to be recirculated like 4g63, since we run MAP sensors instead of MAF sensors. So a turbo'd 420a makes the "PHsss" sound alittle bit louder in most cases. Until of course the MAF-T setup is purchased for the 4g63.

Siral3x said:
As a noob it will cost you $1000+ in labor only just to install the kit....

How do you know he is a noob? Aside from that, even if he were there is enough information and plenty of helpful members that will help walk him through if he does have any questions or concers throughout the process.

Before I started purchasing parts for my turbo setup I wasn't nearly as wise as I am now. I still have alot to learn, I admit. None the less, I've come a very long way, just from reading here.

Siral3x said:
i'm not even talking abt engine prep, and on stock internals you can't run more then 7PSI...I think 8 is too much. Also you need to upgrade the fuel system...other couple $100s..and soo on. You don't want to do it! :)

Whether you can run more than 7 psi is soley based on the condition of the motor itself. There is no way to know how much it can hold. You could rip the motor apart, and closely inspect everything to make a pretty accurate guess of how much it could take, but one: that's alot of work to do which is really not necessary. and two: if you rip it apart it would be a shame to replace it with OEM internals(no offense X). Second best way to tell if the motor can handle boost is to look at the milage on the motor and to run a quick compression test and make your decision based on it's results.

You said you "think" 8 is too much. 8 psi has become known as the standard max that can be run safely on nearly all boosted 420a's on stock internals. Some are exceeding that by alittle, some are exceeding that by quite a bit. Again, there is no way to know how much pressure the system can actually operate with.

Yes you need to upgrade the fuel system sure, but even if this were a GS-T/X if you were to crank the boost up, eventually you would have to do the same thing.

Siral3x said:
+ you have to switch to the expensive 91+ octane gas.

You mean 93?

Siral3x said:
I would either keep the car and take really good care of the engine..so you can go thru HS with it , or sell it! save your money!,do you're homework and read read read DMS articles and latter on buy a GST/GSX!

That's a good suggestion to take really good care of it so he will have his car since he is in high school, but many of us 420aT guys have been running pretty reliably for quite some time now.

You also mention he should save his money. He could get $2000-$3000 for his car right now. A GS-T/X will usually run $5000 and up, for it to be in pretty good condition. So he will have to save $2000-$3000 atleast. Which is about the same as a turbo kit costs.
 
DSMcrazy3 don't get to fussed abt my post. The truth is that a 420A will never perform like a 4g63. 'period'
Ask anybody...don't get it back on me. LOL
I was just giving the guy some sugestions so he knows what to expect.
Then if you say
"Again, there is no way to know how much pressure the system can actually operate with." ]
YES you can, and it's called common sence ;) unless you plan to spend other unjustified money for a 420A motor again :D
 
tsk, tsk, tsk...

You 4G63 owners think you have it all. You're entitled to your opinion, but like Josh said, we don't tolerate people who tell 420A owners to sell and get a 4G63 instead.

It doesn't really take too much research before you find that 420A's are very competent, and comparable, engines. Furthermore, turboing the 420A can be within anyone's budget if it's done smartly. Personally, I'd rather buy one turbosystem, rather than purchasing one with the car, then buying a second to replace the stock system.

I have a few more things to say about your comments too...
Siral3x said:
and on stock internals you can't run more then 7PSI...I think 8 is too much.
Actually, 10 psi is about the limit for 420A's with stock internals. 8 psi is about when rudimentary fuel systems begin to fail. If you were to install bigger injectors, an AFPR, and some sort of capable fuel management electronics, right from the get go, 10 psi wouldn't be a problem at all. Unfortunately, that route is pretty expensive, so an FMU and Walbro 255 will remain the most popular choice; consequently, 8 psi will remain the most prevalent boost limit.

Siral3x said:
+ you have to switch to the expensive 91+ octane gas.
WTF

GSX/GS-T's run on 93 octane gas; why are you advocating buying one if high octane gas is such a negative thing?

Siral3x said:
do you're homework and read read read DMSarticles and latter on buy a GST/GSX!
Before anyone goes Googling "DMS," it was a typo... :D
 
Siral3x said:
DSMcrazy3 don't get to fussed abt my post. The truth is that a 420A will never perform like a 4g63. 'period'

I wasn't even done with my first post, before this comment popped up.

The truth is, 420As can not only perform as well as 4G63s, they can out perform them. 420As were designed nearly 25 years after the 4G63 using far more sophisticated engineering tools. 420As also have the exact same displacement as 4G63s; 2.0L. Finally, the cylinder heads on 420As are Lotus designed for racing applications; they outflow the 4G63 head by quite a big margin.

When everything's put like that... can you tell me what's so much better about the 4G63's again?

The only (obvious) difference between the two is that 4G63s were designed for turbos from the factory. After you rebuild the 420A with forged internals and feed it with boost, it will give any similarly sized engine a run for its money.

Sure, an engine rebuild and turbo project can be quite time/money consuming, but for any serious tuner, the 4G63 will eventually require the same processes. While the 4G63 internals are a little stockier than the 420A's, they aren't invincible (or anywhere near as strong as their forged counterparts). And that little turbo that came on your car will reach it's maximum capacity shortly thereafter.

My intentions were not to turn this into another 4G63 vs. 420A thread, but I had to get the facts straight. Please don't coerce anyone to sell their car for your own personal reasons - this site is for the circulation of technical knowledge; not opinion.
 
Hey sports fans:


Siral3x said:
...
and it's called common sence ;)

Speaking of common sense let's not get into a pissing contest here or a game of one-upmanship. If you have reference URLs from qualified sources which will support your position then post them. We are here to have fun rather than posturing and thumping chest.

Cheers,
GTM
 
common sence and courtesy tells me i should drop the subject, so everybody has some fun over it :)
however I'll have to send a private post to VelocitaPaola and debate more..
 
Siral3x said:
common sence and courtesy tells me i should drop the subject, so everybody has some fun over it :)
however I'll have to send a private post to VelocitaPaola and debate more..

That was not the intent of the post, nor should or anyone feel that a civilized discussion cannot exist. Hey, no fair having PM, keep it out in the open so others can learn and form their own opinion but based on knowledge.

I, like everyone else have opinions and I will sometimes express them. However, what is important to understand that there are qualified opinions and unqualified opinions. It is the latter which cause the most problems in the forums, I'm sure you have heard the saying about a little bit of knowledge is dangerous. Combine that with a certain age group which is known; problems will happen. (no, don't even think about going there)

Things to avoid are an accusitory _you_, suggittive contentious remarks, overall tenor of the post showing disrespect for another member. Diplomacy, humility will always work if it is understood that people are playing fair when presenting ideas. Sometimes it helps to think in terms of trying to teach or explain something to your mother. You are not going to be insulting, you are not going to tell here how dumb she is (if your smart you won't).

Cheers,
GTM
 
Man, what a learning experience it would be if you turbo'd your 420a. And I mean that in a very positive way. You could build a kit for relatively cheap, which could definately be in a 17 year olds budget. I had a job after school all through highschool, I know that I could have pieced together a budget kit with the money I was making (I took flying lessons instead). You'd learn so much about engines and cars in general...knowledge that you could use for the rest of your life.
So go for it!
 
jastermerrel said:
Man, what a learning experience it would be if you turbo'd your 420a. And I mean that in a very positive way. You could build a kit for relatively cheap, which could definately be in a 17 year olds budget. I had a job after school all through highschool, I know that I could have pieced together a budget kit with the money I was making (I took flying lessons instead). You'd learn so much about engines and cars in general...knowledge that you could use for the rest of your life.
So go for it!

If he gets all the used parts and knows the right places he can get the whole kit for about $1000. I've never actually worked on a 420a, but I've done a custom turbo install on 4g64. Basically same turbo setup. I think that 420a might even be better than 4g64 for turbocharging because it's a DOHC. (Unless, of course, you get a '94 galant gs DOHC 4g64 engine)
 
Something else to consider:

The biggest advantages of the 4G63T cars is that they have a much more diverse aftermarket due to their tenure on the market and proven ability to handle extreme duty on stock internals. The ability to bolt up turbo, exhaust and fuel upgrades with a simple piggy back fuel computer for tuning and push the 400hp limits (and beyond) to an otherwise stock engine, with confidence, makes a factory turbocharged car the most feasible way to a 400hp car. There's no disputing that.

*Hell. I bought a GVR4 just so I could give it a shot!* :D

The other, real, advantage the 4G63 guys have is the aftermarket for tuning instruments. The only reason to install the SAFC on a 2GNT is to lean out aggressive cams below 2000rpm. There is no DSMlink. There is no AEM EMS. There's basically MegaSquirt if you're serious about tuning a 420A. It's far from being as advanced as the leading EMS systems available to the 4G63 crowd, but it offers all the tuning ability we need and an abundance of additional features that you can add on for less than a dollar's worth of resistors and some solder; things like boost control, stutter box, water/alcohol injection, and even traction control.

However, do a little research into the cost to rebuild both motors and you'll find that, dollar for dollar, they're almost identical. Pistons, rods, cams - if anything, some of the 4G63 stuff is a bit more expensive because you can get big name brand items from manufacturers like HKS and Greddy.

To be at the top of the game on either side of the coin requires rebuilding the engine, a thorough understanding of all your vehicles systems, mastery of trouble shooting the problems that will come about from driving a modified car, and maturity when it comes to positively representing your side of that coin.

We're all DSMers and we're only as strong as our weakest member. Therefore, it's in everyone's best interest to help the slower guys to achieve their goals. Just because I dropped six large into my engine bay and am aiming for high 14s at the track one day doesn't mean I'm stupid.

"Fast is relative. Class is not."
 
dr1665 said:
Something else to consider:

The biggest advantages of the 4G63T cars is that they have a much more diverse aftermarket due to their tenure on the market and proven ability to handle extreme duty on stock internals. The ability to bolt up turbo, exhaust and fuel upgrades with a simple piggy back fuel computer for tuning and push the 400hp limits (and beyond) to an otherwise stock engine, with confidence, makes a factory turbocharged car the most feasible way to a 400hp car. There's no disputing that.

*Hell. I bought a GVR4 just so I could give it a shot!* :D

The other, real, advantage the 4G63 guys have is the aftermarket for tuning instruments. The only reason to install the SAFC on a 2GNT is to lean out aggressive cams below 2000rpm. There is no DSMlink. There is no AEM EMS. There's basically MegaSquirt if you're serious about tuning a 420A. It's far from being as advanced as the leading EMS systems available to the 4G63 crowd, but it offers all the tuning ability we need and an abundance of additional features that you can add on for less than a dollar's worth of resistors and some solder; things like boost control, stutter box, water/alcohol injection, and even traction control.

However, do a little research into the cost to rebuild both motors and you'll find that, dollar for dollar, they're almost identical. Pistons, rods, cams - if anything, some of the 4G63 stuff is a bit more expensive because you can get big name brand items from manufacturers like HKS and Greddy.

To be at the top of the game on either side of the coin requires rebuilding the engine, a thorough understanding of all your vehicles systems, mastery of trouble shooting the problems that will come about from driving a modified car, and maturity when it comes to positively representing your side of that coin.

We're all DSMers and we're only as strong as our weakest member. Therefore, it's in everyone's best interest to help the slower guys to achieve their goals. Just because I dropped six large into my engine bay and am aiming for high 14s at the track one day doesn't mean I'm stupid.

"Fast is relative. Class is not."

Couldn't have said it better myself. Sure, stock for stock the 4g63 is better for performance, but once you get way up in power, both engines will need rebuilding. We just happen to have to do it a little earlier then the 4g63's. That doesn't mean the 420a is incappable of making big power.
 
I think what most discourages people to go bigger on there 420a's is the fact that you have to get new pistons and rods. If forged internals were so abundent and a little cheaper then most would have no problem doing so. Also to everyone I have made a full turbo set up for less then 800 so far. I think im at 480 bucks and im only missing....fcd,IC piping,manifold and oil lines for the turbo.
 
For whoever in here thinks i dont know much about the difference between a Gs and a GST, i do. I studied up on these cars for a year before i bought one. I know that gas prices blow, but considering the highway driving i do, its not a problem, i have enough money for college and im sure my parents would loan me money for a gst while i work at my job to pay it off. I also know that the 420a is a very capable motor, i just dont have the time or patience to make it as capable as a GST that easily
 
Trucloner11 said:
For whoever in here thinks i dont know much about the difference between a Gs and a GST, i do. I studied up on these cars for a year before i bought one. I know that gas prices blow, but considering the highway driving i do, its not a problem, i have enough money for college and im sure my parents would loan me money for a gst while i work at my job to pay it off. I also know that the 420a is a very capable motor, i just dont have the time or patience to make it as capable as a GST that easily

Frankly, if your going to sell the 420a, I think getting a GS-T would be a complete waste of money, your still going to be stuck with FWD. If your going to get a 4g63, go for AWD. Otherwise its not really worth it. But thats just my opinion.
 
Definitely have to agree with Chris...but luckily I'm just now posting in this thread, I would have had much more to say in this matter ;) Anywho...I still say keep the 420a, u can DO IT :rocks:
 
U is not YOU!!!! na j/p man but fix that i dont want to see you suspended for such a small thing. and i 2nd that man YOU CAN DO IT!!!.....i found a tsi for 1500 how can i get money quick. Sell my car for 2500? Im broke please any answer would be much appreciated.
 
eldiabloz13 said:
U is not YOU!!!! na j/p man but fix that i dont want to see you suspended for such a small thing. and i 2nd that man YOU CAN DO IT!!!.....i found a tsi for 1500 how can i get money quick. Sell my car for 2500? Im broke please any answer would be much appreciated.

Sell a kidney on the black market? Inform a higher up you have incriminating photos of them? Get a job?
 
Seriously i applied to 40 places and one called me so far. No places higher anymore. 18 or older usually this is such crap i hate MA. :mad:
 
First of all, this is off topic, but I hate how people complain about not being able to get a job. TRY for goodness sake. I got a job 2 days after I turned 16 and have had one ever since(i'll be 20 this year). A person where I work now has just moved here from New York. She's 18, I heard she was working two jobs, so I asked for clairification because it amazes me since I'm so tired from working one. When I asked she reponded with, "I have three" and she just moved here. It's not as hard as people think, if you're completely immature and unprofessional, goodluck.

Sorry about that.


Anyways, if you're going to get a TSi FWD, why don't you just turbo yours? In the long run you'll be getting the same from both motors(as discussed before, eventually both need a rebuild) You will still be FWD with the TSi. You already have the N/T right now and obviously don't have ALOT of money, so just keep your car and save up for turbo. Maybe in that process you'll run into a killer AWD and you'll have money saved up. Who knows? but first of all, buckle down and get a job!;)
 
DSMcrazy3 said:
Anyways, if you're going to get a TSi FWD, why don't you just turbo yours? In the long run you'll be getting the same from both motors(as discussed before, eventually both need a rebuild) You will still be FWD with the TSi. You already have the N/T right now and obviously don't have ALOT of money, so just keep your car and save up for turbo. Maybe in that process you'll run into a killer AWD and you'll have money saved up. Who knows? but first of all, buckle down and get a job!;)

They made a FWD TSi?
 
Yes, Mitsubishi gave the AWD it's own 'type' name, while Eagle named both the AWD and FWD, TSi. On the TSi AWD you will see a molding along the side that reads "All Wheel Drive" and an "AWD" on the rear.
 
Sorry my bad its a talon tsi AWD. for 1500 and not to much damage to it. A drunk driver came down the street and hit the car and pushed it into another so the hood is messed up and frount bumer thats to be honest thats all. Some other small things but thats the main. Now seeing as your in texas....thats a big state. Im located in the 2nd or 3rd smallest state. Plus i have Boston which is a huge city to deal with. Jobs arent as abundent here as they may be for others. Now not trying dosent have anything to do with it. I quit lacrosse at my school so i could go out and find one. So far its dishwashing 2 times a week. Thats by no means a living. Its easier said then done in the cases around here. Now lets go back to history class for a moment. Back in the whaling days there was a sea port on the east coast that rain supream for years. Im sure you all know about it if you remembered closly. New bedford MA had the biggest port for a long period of time. Soooo many people live there its not even funny. Boston tea party is another major feature. So many people live there also. Now see so many people want to live in the state because of those features i do not have any clue why NB is the scummiest place you could imagine. It has its nice parts though but still. Boston is just croweded that people have to move to smaller towns near me.....Then they take all the jobs kids could earn and hold them. The mc donalds near me dosent have one worker under 19.Same goes for every fast food place. Now thats a small peice to show its not lazyness its part of the age.
 
Alrighty, then, fellas. If we're done talking about platform differences and want to talk about the job market by region, let's do it in the hangout. Keep the technical stuff useful and undiluted, please. :thumb:
 
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