HTA68 vs HTA Green

[bcjjones]

I am confused by your post.

Are you saying there is a benefit form cconverting a Big16g or Evo316g turbo to have a 20g compressor wheel?

That combination is a TD05 20g....., a 20g compressor combined with a TD05 turbhine wheel found in MHI turbos (14b, 16g, Big16g, Evo316g, and factory 20g with t3 td05 housing).

Just like Justin has been stating, the spool will be around the same, and when I say around, I mean the difference will be not noticeable.



If thats your response to the post made above, then i think you are missing the point of a lot of this thread being that the TD05 20g has been mentioned several times already as an alternative turbo for your goal.

Maybe I have been mis informed and if so I apologize. I have been told, though, that if a E3 was to be converted to a 20g, by machining and craming the 20g wheel in there, that the turbo would spool faster then a regular 20g but flow just as much? I've read that a few times and was told by a freelancer who provides the conversion service the same thing.

Is that not correct?

 

[95twinturboawd]

Billet TD04 and TD05 Turbos

heres a few more billet options there testing was done on a 3.5v6 3s so even our stock 2.0 should spool a tad faster

 

[sniperelite]

If you're not and you use fifth to accerlate from a lower speed onto a highway (35-40 roll), the motor bogs down and KABOOM you may not feel so "smart" ya dig?

No, I don't dig.. In fact I feel as if what you just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul.

But the fact is.... YES the turbo lag will be much greater doing a WOT pull in 5th vs any lower gear at a slow speed, but NO, this is not "bogging" or furthermore damaging your engine/drivetrain it if done correctly. If your motor is in healthy working order, this is perfectly normal operation and definitely within the motors limits.

BUT what is this "KABOOM" you speak of the motor doing in 5th gear?? Maybe you are getting the KABOOM! confused with full boost finally kicking in and throwing you back in your seat?

That's just asinine to jump from pulling in 5th all the way to pulling in 1st...I would think 4th or even 3rd if your speed is low enough. Even automatic trans' will down shift to quickly accelerate on the highway...think maybe there's a reason for that? hdamn :

You obviously misunderstood what I was asking so I won't try to beat a dead horse over the head anymore, its only fun for so long. We all know why we have multiple gears and what gear is appropriate to be in depending on the speed you are at so there is no debate on that. But, if you'd really like to see what happens when going from 5th to 1st at highway speeds just be my guest and try it. But get ready to start looking for a new trans/head replacement after that. Oh, and make sure you take a video of it for our entertainment purposes.

 

[JusMX141]

But the fact is.... YES the turbo lag will be much greater doing a WOT pull in 5th vs any lower gear at a slow speed

...actually, you have it reversed. The engine works harder to move the car in a higher gear, so more exhaust energy will be expelled and the turbo will reach full boost at a lower RPM than if you were doing the same in a lower gear. Many large-frame turbos don't even reach full boost at all when doing a pull in first gear due to a lack of exhaust energy.

Think of climbing a hill on a 10-speed bike- much easier on the legs to maintain speed in a lower gear than a higher one, right? Now pretend your legs are attached to a turbocharger which works directly off of the energy you expel. The more exhaust energy an engine expels, the more energy to drive the turbo, and therefore the turbo will reach boost sooner. This is why guys tend to run into full-throttle surge issues with smaller turbos when laying on the throttle in a higher gear....the exhaust energy has spooled the turbo quicker than the engine can consume the airflow it's generating.

 

[carvinbassplyr]

...actually, you have it reversed. The engine works harder to move the car in a higher gear, so more exhaust energy will be expelled and the turbo will reach full boost at a lower RPM than if you were doing the same in a lower gear. Many large-frame turbos don't even reach full boost at all when doing a pull in first gear due to a lack of exhaust energy.

Think of climbing a hill on a 10-speed bike- much easier on the legs to maintain speed in a lower gear than a higher one, right? Now pretend your legs are attached to a turbocharger which works directly off of the energy you expel. The more exhaust energy an engine expels, the more energy to drive the turbo, and therefore the turbo will reach boost sooner. This is why guys tend to run into full-throttle surge issues with smaller turbos when laying on the throttle in a higher gear....the exhaust energy has spooled the turbo quicker than the engine can consume the airflow it's generating.

^^^^like if you try laying into it in 5th gear at too low of a speed...you'll have all this boost with nowhere for it go...oops spun a bearing/shot a rod out the oil pan. Snipe, I guess if you consider your DSM a "break all the time" trailer queen that would be normal operation...lemme guess next you'll be saying it's "normal" to launch your car in 3rd if "done properly"

 

[sniperelite]

^^ Great point JusMX you are correct and I just realized the correlation too after looking at 94awdcoupe spool data post...

I think what the OP was referring to as "bogging" in 5th is that maybe it just doesn't feel like the car is accelerating as fast as it would feel in a lower gear.?..


Anyhow look into the possibility of a custom rebuilt turbo from Turbo Lab ( Log In | Facebook ) They have been getting great feedback from their customers and can machine about anything you could think of for a turbo. Also, prices will be MUCH better than getting something direct from FP. Go Check 'em out.

 

[carvinbassplyr]

Maybe I have been mis informed and if so I apologize. I have been told, though, that if a E3 was to be converted to a 20g, by machining and craming the 20g wheel in there, that the turbo would spool faster then a regular 20g but flow just as much? I've read that a few times and was told by a freelancer who provides the conversion service the same thing.

Is that not correct?

Glad I understood you correctly ...I did some searching around and it is possible...people claiming full boost as low as 3000 rpm's

^^ Great point JusMX you are correct and I just realized the correlation too after looking at 94awdcoupe spool data post...

I think what the OP was referring to as "bogging" in 5th is that maybe it just doesn't feel like the car is accelerating as fast as it would feel in a lower gear.?..


Anyhow look into the possibility of a custom rebuilt turbo from Turbo Lab ( Log In | Facebook ) They have been getting great feedback from their customers and can machine about anything you could think of for a turbo. Also, prices will be MUCH better than getting something direct from FP. Go Check 'em out.

I referring to choosing a gear to tall for the speed you're doing...like starting your car from a stand still in 2nd gear...you can do it but it wont feel good and you'll be putting alot of stress on the motor.

 

[bastarddsm]

I make pulls in 5th gear all the time. I see just over 35psi at about 3800 in 5th. Guess I better go pick up my rods off the highway.

By the way, if you can't get 350 out of a 16g on 93, your doing it wrong.

 

[carvinbassplyr]

I make pulls in 5th gear all the time. I see just over 35psi at about 3800 in 5th. Guess I better go pick up my rods off the highway.

By the way, if you can't get 350 out of a 16g on 93, your doing it wrong.

OK, I never said you can't pull in 5th gear...show where I said that EVER...Now how about get you car doing about 25-30 mph drop it into 5th and put the gas to the floor and tell me how it works out for you. I know people personally who have spun bearings and grenaded trans' from being lazy and staying in 5th gear to pass people or merge onto highways so don't tell me it doesn't happen. This all spiraled from one comment I made just trying to to tell someone to be more cautious about something. If you can/want to do 30 roll pulls starting in 5th gear then be my guest, that's just not the choice I would make. Quit trolling so this can get back on topic please and thank you. Also, if it were so easy to get 350awhp out of a 16G then why are there only 5 at or above that power level on the dyno challenge? And most of them on built motors... http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/dynosheets.php?&do=Big_16g

 

[JusMX141]

^^^^like if you try laying into it in 5th gear at too low of a speed...you'll have all this boost with nowhere for it go...oops spun a bearing/shot a rod out the oil pan.

I have no idea where you're coming up with this shit, so I'm done adding input to this thread as you're obviously ignoring anything that any of us are telling you and hearing only what you want to hear. I'll let you head on back to a world where 68HTA's outspool every turbo made, and gear selection causes rod bearing failures.

 

[sniperelite]

^^^^like if you try laying into it in 5th gear at too low of a speed...you'll have all this boost with nowhere for it go...oops spun a bearing/shot a rod out the oil pan. Snipe, I guess if you consider your DSM a "break all the time" trailer queen that would be normal operation...lemme guess next you'll be saying it's "normal" to launch your car in 3rd if "done properly"

Carvin, it seems you still cannot comprehend my point...

What do you mean it "has no where to go" with the boost?? The car will accelerate forward at a greater speed once it builds all that boost and off you go. Hell, isn't that the main reason why turbos were put on sports cars in the first place, performance gains.

But YOU are making it seem that if ANYONE does a pull in 5th gear at anything less than 50mph , they WILL destroy their engine/drivetrain. This is entirely false....

Unless I am completely blind to some secret "5th gear pull curse" that causes your engine to go "KABOOM", as you say, at full boost, I believe you are completely inaccurate in that statement.

Now, if you are running some crazy 80lb/min or higher turbo and pushing over 30psi of boost and then try doing a 5th gear pull like that, yes there is good chance something can go wrong if the rest of the car is not fully built for that amount of power.

But you are talking about a little td05 16g and smaller sized turbos like it... So I doubt, even with pushing that turbo around 25psi, would you have to worry about breaking your drivetrain doing a 5th gear pull from a roll...

This conclusion is gathered from my personal experience with my own car. I have done quite a few 5th gear pulls getting on the on-ramps last month when I took the car on vacation on a 1000mi trip and guess what... NO spun bearings, NO thrown rods, and NO toasted drivetrain parts (still shifts like butter) I don't BEAT on my car or drive it like a bat out of hell simply because THAT is how parts break, not by doing a 5th gear pull in the car.

And if your wondering, this was on an evo3 16g at 21-22psi, stock trans, stock block, stock head at ~130k miles. Cars been on a trailer ONCE from when my wheel hub bearings gave out but other than that has never seen trailer ramps since If you really wanted to insult me you would say the cars up on jacks more than it is on the ground... because that statement I cannot deny


Buy my question, Carvin, is why now is my motor/trans still running strong after doing MULTIPLE low speed 5th gear pulls?? Following your logic and vast knowledge, I should still be standing there on the side of the highway with a big old hole in my oil pan and a face looking like this...

But instead of adding to my car's trailer queen status as you say, I am sitting here having this pointless debate with you over a statement that is in my opinion entirely wrong.

In fact I don't care to even know your reasoning on why my car is still working great, instead I am actually going to take the car out again for a nice little cruise just prove you even more wrong! haHa


I will not clutter the internet with more debating nonsense so I hope you have good luck finding a turbo that works. Look into my recommendation that I posted earlier. Also, use the search feature, I typed in fp green and hta68 and there are many threads that come up that also offer good info about both turbos.

Keep boostin'..

 

[carvinbassplyr]

Carvin, it seems you still cannot comprehend my point...

What do you mean it "has no where to go" with the boost?? The car will accelerate forward at a greater speed once it builds all that boost and off you go. Hell, isn't that the main reason why turbos were put on sports cars in the first place, performance gains.

But YOU are making it seem that if ANYONE does a pull in 5th gear at anything less than 50mph , they WILL destroy their engine/drivetrain. This is entirely false....

Unless I am completely blind to some secret "5th gear pull curse" that causes your engine to go "KABOOM", as you say, at full boost, I believe you are completely inaccurate in that statement.

Now, if you are running some crazy 80lb/min or higher turbo and pushing over 30psi of boost and then try doing a 5th gear pull like that, yes there is good chance something can go wrong if the rest of the car is not fully built for that amount of power.

But you are talking about a little td05 16g and smaller sized turbos like it... So I doubt, even with pushing that turbo around 25psi, would you have to worry about breaking your drivetrain doing a 5th gear pull from a roll...

This conclusion is gathered from my personal experience with my own car. I have done quite a few 5th gear pulls getting on the on-ramps last month when I took the car on vacation on a 1000mi trip and guess what... NO spun bearings, NO thrown rods, and NO toasted drivetrain parts (still shifts like butter) I don't BEAT on my car or drive it like a bat out of hell simply because THAT is how parts break, not by doing a 5th gear pull in the car.

And if your wondering, this was on an evo3 16g at 21-22psi, stock trans, stock block, stock head at ~130k miles. Cars been on a trailer ONCE from when my wheel hub bearings gave out but other than that has never seen trailer ramps since If you really wanted to insult me you would say the cars up on jacks more than it is on the ground... because that statement I cannot deny


Buy my question, Carvin, is why now is my motor/trans still running strong after doing MULTIPLE low speed 5th gear pulls?? Following your logic and vast knowledge, I should still be standing there on the side of the highway with a big old hole in my oil pan and a face looking like this...

But instead of adding to my car's trailer queen status as you say, I am sitting here having this pointless debate with you over a statement that is in my opinion entirely wrong.

In fact I don't care to even know your reasoning on why my car is still working great, instead I am actually going to take the car out again for a nice little cruise just prove you even more wrong! haHa


I will not clutter the internet with more debating nonsense so I hope you have good luck finding a turbo that works. Look into my recommendation that I posted earlier. Also, use the search feature, I typed in fp green and hta68 and there are many threads that come up that also offer good info about both turbos.

Keep boostin'..

Alright I concede...maybe I'm just plagued with a break all the time car and so are my friends...I'm just a more cautious person because I'm tired of dumping money into this car every time I turn the key to be honest. I spun a bearing on my car with the 14b on there and otherwise stock setup when I wasn't even pushing the car...so I'm just nervous/cautious when it comes to hard pulls. Now I don't think that the 68HTA out spools every other turbo as it's not even a BB turbo but the guy I worked with to build my car is very knowledgeable/opinionated on setups, aero design, flow rates, etc and he really pushed me in that direction and had the facts to back it up so I started looking into it for myself and it seemed legit vs the traditional MHI options out there. I've just got alot more invested in this car than initially planned at this point in the build and really don't want it all to go down the drain because I bought a turbo that was too small, pushed it to hard and blew something up, but I also want it responsive and to have decent/competitive whp. So I apologize for making any false statements, but I was just speaking out of my personal experience with my car. Thank you for all the input.

 

[WES_393]

By the way, if you can't get 350 out of a 16g on 93, your doing it wrong.

+1

Not trying to get into this giant debate that this thread has turned into, but you mentioned several times that 350hp on a 16g is near impossible and that you would at least need E85. I don't know where your friend heard this, but this isn't true. Take a trip through the dyno challenge sometime and you'll notice the Small 16g record is 399hp and the B16g (most likely Evo3) is sitting at 451hp. I'm not sure if they are using E85, but there are PLENTY of people making well over 350hp on a Evo3 16g. Many that I know for a fact run pump gas.

Long story short, if you want power AND spool time, get an Evo3 16g.

 

[carvinbassplyr]

+1

Not trying to get into this giant debate that this thread has turned into, but you mentioned several times that 350hp on a 16g is near impossible and that you would at least need E85. I don't know where your friend heard this, but this isn't true. Take a trip through the dyno challenge sometime and you'll notice the Small 16g record is 399hp and the B16g (most likely Evo3) is sitting at 451hp. I'm not sure if they are using E85, but there are PLENTY of people making well over 350hp on a Evo3 16g. Many that I know for a fact run pump gas.

Long story short, if you want power AND spool time, get an Evo3 16g.

I actually did look through the dyno challenge and found one E316G that made that power on a pretty stock/mild setup, all the others were running higher compression built motors. I was dead set on an E316G from the beginning but had my mind changed by my builder. I'm actually now intrigued by the guys maching the E316G for 20G compressor wheels...seems to have alot of positive results. Like I said, the guy I've been working with is kind of a "my way or the highway" personality, so even when I've asked questions he doesn't take to kindly as he thinks I'm "questioning his judgement". And we're not talking about a hack here either...this guy custom fabbed his own twin scroll evo 8 turbo setup for his 2G that is absolutely killer! He knows what he's doing...

 

[jmartinez1228]

This is a headache to read. Totally going off topic.

Carvin maybe you have had just bad luck because I have never had any issues with staying in 5th gear and waiting for the turbo to spool up. Maybe I missed something about dsm's but I've never heard of anyone blowing up a motor or tranny doing this. Reving it to 7k and dumping the clutch is another thing but never heard of blowing a rod due to trying to pass someone in 5th gear like you said.

Either way I say go green or go home . To me it doesn't matter about the fact that the two turbos are in different levels or whatever else you guys are trying to argue about. They are very popular turbos and I can even see myself trying to decide between the two. That's what matters. You can argue about turbine wheels and all that crap but a true dsm wiseman told me it doesn't matter what you have for a turbo if you don't have a properly built head to spool it up.
Like stated before saying your turbo spools at such and such rpm's is a moot point because there are too many factors that play into that, every engine is different. Even if they are built the exact same and put in different environments aka cali and northeast (cold as ####) the motors will probably not result in the same outcome.

 

[carvinbassplyr]

This is a headache to read. Totally going off topic.

Carvin maybe you have had just bad luck because I have never had any issues with staying in 5th gear and waiting for the turbo to spool up. Maybe I missed something about dsm's but I've never heard of anyone blowing up a motor or tranny doing this. Reving it to 7k and dumping the clutch is another thing but never heard of blowing a rod due to trying to pass someone in 5th gear like you said.

Either way I say go green or go home . To me it doesn't matter about the fact that the two turbos are in different levels or whatever else you guys are trying to argue about. They are very popular turbos and I can even see myself trying to decide between the two. That's what matters. You can argue about turbine wheels and all that crap but a true dsm wiseman told me it doesn't matter what you have for a turbo if you don't have a properly built head to spool it up.
Like stated before saying your turbo spools at such and such rpm's is a moot point because there are too many factors that play into that, every engine is different. Even if they are built the exact same and put in different environments aka cali and northeast (cold as ####) the motors will probably not result in the same outcome.

I hope bad luck is all it is...I really don't want to feed the rep that these cars have gotten for being "unreliable junk". The guy I bought it from a few years back did sell me a bill of goods and I took his word on way to many things but I was a newb to these cars and turbo'd cars in general at the time and was excited to find a black awd drive one. I'm just glad I talked him down even though the car was in "good shape" cause I probably woulda paid him even less had I known what was about to unfold in the following days, but you live and you learn. I just hope I build/built it all the right way so I don't have to go down that dark road again. I know that turbo choice can play a critical roll in the "right build" so that's why I want to get as much feed back from actual experience with these turbos as I can to make a more educated decision. I know on paper that the 42lb/min the E316G is rated at should net 400hp, but then why isn't every E316G setup runing around at 400hp? I know it's not super easy or super common and you're running that turbo at max efficiency which shortens it's lifespan correct?

 

[JusMX141]

To me it doesn't matter about the fact that the two turbos are in different levels or whatever else you guys are trying to argue about. They are very popular turbos and I can even see myself trying to decide between the two. That's what matters. You can argue about turbine wheels and all that crap but a true dsm wiseman told me it doesn't matter what you have for a turbo if you don't have a properly built head to spool it up.

If that were the case, FP would never even need to market as many turbos in different airflow categories as they do. Obviously turbine spec has a direct relation to both airflow and spool or we'd have T25's making the same power as 42R's. That statement is almost as ridiculous as the gear choice / rod bearing life discussion of earlier.

 

[TSIfreek]

I would go with the FP Green with out thinking twice about it as your only going to get so much power out of the 68 and thats it. With the green you can grow and learn more.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Sh*t or get off the pot, we dont need another multi-month thread where you stir things up, don't absorb any of what you are told... and don't buy anything anyways.

Between your two threads if you haven't figured it out maybe its time to sell the car or just stick with maxing out what you've got.

 

[T is for TURBO]

Why does this thread even exist?
I vote its gets merged with the thread already started that compairs the two turbos, and filter out all the nonesense.

 

[Michael@FP]

While I didn't read most of the back and forth banter if you want a 68HTA I can't build them.

If you want a Green I can build those.

If you want something in between I can build you a 71HTA w/ an 84MM surge ported compressor cover, 8CM hot side and a 5H wheel.

-Michael

 

[jmartinez1228]

If that were the case, FP would never even need to market as many turbos in different airflow categories as they do. Obviously turbine spec has a direct relation to both airflow and spool or we'd have T25's making the same power as 42R's. That statement is almost as ridiculous as the gear choice / rod bearing life discussion of earlier.

Did any of my statement have anything to do with POWER? I don't recall saying he is going to make 42r power with a t25 so keep harping yourself up because you feel all big and bad for bashing my statement. Read again. My whole point of my statement was the affect on spool of the turbo. You are going to tell me that a non ported head is going to perform better then a ported head with the same cam setup? what my line said. A properly built head which means a head with the proper port work and proper cam profile for that turbo.

So whatever these two turbos come with for wheels are what he is asking about. If he said hey what's the best td05h turbo to run or best td06 then have a field day but he didnt in his original post.

So back to my original statement. HTA green and port that head. The hta green is going to be a good all around turbo to run because it isn't going to drop off at the top end and you will get acceptional spool out of it.
He isn't going to lose much spool time and will have the extra headroom if he wants more.

What are you going to tell him if he bought the hta68 and made another thread saying "HTA68 spools great but drops off on top end"? Shoulda got the green.
LIke he said he doesn't want to buy a turbo twice. Yes the hta68 will spool faster. By how much is hard to say unless you run it on your car.
I dont even an upgraded o2 housing in his setup, next you are going to tell me that the o2 housing isn't going to make much of a difference in spool also?

If i give someone advice I make damn sure they know top to bottom what is involved with my advice. I look at what they are running and see what else is going to help. Some people don't always run the correct setups for their turbos and have no idea and nobody tells them. You as a moderator should know damn well that headwork comes into affect when spooling a turbo just as much as what wheel you are running so you yourself could have given him this advice.

 

[JusMX141]

While I didn't read most of the back and forth banter if you want a 68HTA I can't build them.

If you're unable to build them new, is there any plan to offer the wheel for sale separately so the buyer can choose to upgrade an existing turbo? Seems like that would be a great opportunity to keep that turbo alive in our platform.

If you want something in between I can build you a 71HTA w/ an 84MM surge ported compressor cover, 8CM hot side and a 5H wheel.

Did anyone else become aroused by this like I did?

So say we take a 71HTA wheel, pair it to a 20* clipped 05H turbine with all the good internals for thrust durability like the Red and other FP Mitsu turbos have, and mate it to an 8cm housing with an internal gate....that sounds like a recipe for a solid 50 lb/min TD05H turbo which has never existed before.

So back to my original statement. HTA green and port that head.

I don't care what you do to the head, there's no way you're getting a TD06H-based turbo with a 73mm compressor exducer to spool anywhere near a TD05H-based turbo with a 68mm compressor exducer.

I've never seen a case where a ported head did anything to drastically change spool time- even going between an unported 1G head to a ported 2G head on the same turbo setup. In that example the car got faster, but the spool times were nearly identical.

 

[jmartinez1228]

Didn't say the Green would spool faster. My whole point is if you wanted to get the most out of the turbo and cams it would lead to be more beneficial in the end with a port. That is all. He also is talking about top end. From what I understood he would not mind loosing a little spool time to maintain a good top end efficiency. That's all bro.

Hta68 will give him the quicker spool he is asking for but the green will be more efficient up top. Do you agree?

 

[bcjjones]

Man i've never seen so much hate on this forum before

Anybody have an opinion on what I was saying? That if a E3 or big 16g was converted to a 20g, it would spool faster then a normal 20g and have the same flow?

Or better yet, has anyone personally had or have one currently? Not a 20g but a 16g converted to a 20g?