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If Cam angle sensor is bad will I get a spark?

Posted by jck, Feb 19, 2012
Maintenance & Repairs - Oil choices, timing belt, setting timing, CV boot replacement, alternator servicing, fuse/relay checks, and other basic maintenance, repair and diagnosis discussions.

  1. jck

    jck Probationary Member

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    Hello,
    I have a 90 eclipse 2.0 no- turbo.
    The car will not start,but was driven daily until no start issue.
    I have checked fusible links at battery and fuses in fuse panel.
    The fuses are not blown.
    I have checked ignition by replacing coil, wires ,plugs and power transistor.
    Also, the fuel pressure has been checked and fpr has been changed out.
    Also, the coolant temp sensor was found to be defective, but it was replaced. The TPS is bad, but not far out of range. I have checked TPS and it has a closed throttle plate value this was ok, but the resistance value when opening and closing the throttle plate is a little off, but not by much. I do not believe the TPS is causing a no-start issue for this car.

    When I pull the plugs, after trying to start the car they are gas fouled. Cyl. 1 and 4 are are gas fouled worse than the other plugs. I have tried using starting fluid to start car, this does not help the car start.
    I have to remove spark plugs for cleaning after a couple times of trying to start the car.When I remove spark plugs to clean them cyl.1 and 4 plugs are flooded. Cyl.2 and 3 are not very bad gas fouled. I have ohmed injectors and they are ok.

    This leads me to believe it is an issue with timing.
    I have checked the physical timing and all cams /crank timing marks line up.
    I am thinking the Cam angle sensor may be defective. I have looked in forums for answers to this no-start issue. I need a definitive way to test CAS. Some methods to test the CAS are listed in forums. But some have indicated in forums that the CAS can not be tested. Also, the Haynes manual says the CAS can not be tested.

    The CAS I have is a 4 wire sensor. One wire is 12 v power, another wire is ground, the 3rd wire is the wire for determining TDC for cyl 1 and 4 and the last wire on the CAS is for CAM inputs to the ECU
    My cam angle sensor does the job of crank and cam position sensors.

    This is the question I have, if Cam angle sensor is bad will I get a spark.(Autozone Manager says yes, camangle sensor can be bad and car will still have spark)
    I have spark on all cyl.1-4.

    I have a Haynes manual, it says the CAS for my car determines the order the fuel injectors open. Also the Haynes manual says the CAS determines TDC for cylinders 1 and 4. Could the CAS be the reason the car won't start? Is there anything else that would keep the car from not starting? Is TPS the reason for the car not starting?

    Any help will be greatly appreciated?
    Thanks jck
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 5, 2014
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  2. H@xtGSX

    H@xtGSX Proven Member

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    My CAS went bad, but mine is a 95. I don't think that makes much difference when referring strictly to the cam signal. When it went bad I would get spark on 2 cylinders, and the other 2 would flood. Generally, if the cam signal is bad, that is the case, though I can't say it is ALWAYS like that... It just seems to be the most common symptom. I am running a 1g CAS now, and all I can think of is that maybe the wheel inside is jammed, or possible that the crank signal is fouled up. Open it up and make sure it isn't full of oil too. I have a friend with a 1g that had one fail due to oil getting by the shaft seal and fouling the inside of the sensor up.
     
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  3. delta448

    delta448 DSM Wiseman

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    Then it's probably not the CAS itself. Maybe CAS base timing adjustment though.

    Does the engine fire at all?
    Have you done a compression test?
    Is this a vehicle that ran recently?
     
    #3
  4. DSM1G90

    DSM1G90 Supporting Member

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    (GAAAK!! What do they know? All Autocrapzone places just wants to sell you their third grade parts..)

    1990? I call it a bad ECU - it died on you. Mine did the same stuff as you are experiencing. Got it rebuilt and problems disappered.
     
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  5. Rsawd95dsm

    Rsawd95dsm Proven Member

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    +1 so true autozoners are idiots LOL pull ecu and check for burnt or leaking capasitors (sp)
     
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  6. bryanwheat

    bryanwheat DSM Wiseman

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    I second the leaky caps.
     
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  7. jck

    jck Probationary Member

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    Hello,
    Thanks for reply...

    If ECM is bad would I have spark on all cyls.?
    I have spark on all cyl. 1-4

    The ECM was replaced when I first bought the car used, by the dealer, but this was in 2000.
    So even the "new "ECM is 11+years old. Where is the best and cheapest place to have ECM rebuilt ? I have a cam angle sensor i got form a junkyard. It looks to be in really good shape, but it has a male connector and I need a female connector.

    In the Haynes manual, it says the camangle sensor finds TDC for cyl. 1 and 4. These cyls. , when plugs are pulled are wet with gas. Cyl 2 and 3 are ok, they only get wet plugs when I try to crank the car excessevly to get the car to start. To me it sounds like the timing is out. Which would be caused by the CAS. But I realize the CAS input goes to the computer where the timing info is processed.So the computer could be the issue. Is their any way to check these two parts to find out which one is defective.Thanks for all the help..It is really appreciated!!
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2012
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  8. bryanwheat

    bryanwheat DSM Wiseman

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    Is the cas is bad you will not have spark or fuel, it controls both. I wouldn't just buy a new ecu. Take yours apart and look at the board around the 3 capacitors, if you are unsure than take a close up picture and post it here.
     
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  9. fastgt1990

    fastgt1990 Proven Member

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    my turbo car did this last night, drove home just fine, then got up this morning to go start it and all it would do was turn over but wouldn't fire, y'all think that could be the ecu on it too? actually after reading alittle more i think mine is due to the Coolant Temp Sensor
     
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  10. jck

    jck Probationary Member

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    Hello,
    The ECU was replaced in the 90 Eclipse by the dealer in 2000.
    I know this is 11+ years ago.

    If ECU is bad would I get spark to all 4 cylinders?
    I have spark to all 4 cyl.
    I also have fuel to all 4 cyl

    The timing for the fuel/spark is somehow incorrect when the car tries to start.
    What would cause this?

    I was under the impression that if CAS is bad acording to Haynes manual, the fuel injectors would open but not in the correct order. Is this correct?

    I will take out ECU and examine caps for leakage.
    I really do appreciate the replys ...Thanks
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2012
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  11. gakattack456

    gakattack456 Proven Member

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    Sounds like a timing issue. I would think if the ECU had leaking capacitors you would have neither fuel or spark. Have you tried adjusting the base timing? If it is firing and getting fuel then the CAS is working. Have you checked to make sure it isn't turned 180 degree's out?
     
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  12. jck

    jck Probationary Member

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    Hi thanks for the reply..
    I removed ECM and examined it throughly. It looks to be in excellent condition.
    Caps look excellent, no leakage around top or bottom of caps.
    Also, there was no burnt smell.
    Everything else on circuit board looks good, no burnt wire traces, but bad solder joints I am not that good at identifying.The ECM has not been put on a diagnostic machine, only visually inspected, so it possibly could still be bad? But I really doubt the ECM is bad. It is like someone else said I am getting spark and fuel so it is proably not the ECM.
    ECM was installed by dealer in 2000.
    I really feel this is a timing issue causing this car not to start. The only thing that I can think of that would cause this is the CAS.The CAS is not out 180 degrees, it has never been removed from car.
    But I think the CAS is possibly the problem.
    Another thing I thought of is that everything is ok for car to start, but car is just being difficult starting. Car has not been started in about a month since it quit running. When it first quit running I replaced coolant temp sensor, thinking this was causing the no-start issue. But after replacing the coolant temp sensor, car would not start and has set for about 4 weeks now. It seems to want to catch to start but never does.
    Well what to do now?
    Any ideas if this car is just being stubborn and not wanting to start?(have used starting fluid)
    Thanks for all the help so far!!.......jck
     
    #12
  13. DSM1G90

    DSM1G90 Supporting Member

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    bad solder joints spells trouble right there. They can add major resistance causing poor current flow.

    Pull a plug, lay it on the head connected to the wire and crank it over. If you got a nice blue spark, the ignition voltage is okey. But a weak yellow one somethings not too well .. like a power transistor. But first, what does the plug look like - wet from too much fuel, black sooty from running on a weak spark (which also spells ECU problems).

    You can also do this trick: remove all plugs but keep them connected and have them lay on the head cover for ground then turn the thing over. Do you see all four plugs spark up?

    On the CAS (with the comment not being removed): Put the motor on TDC and remove the CAS. One end of the tang on the rotor of the CAS has a groove which should point to a notch on the CAS body. Now, look in the hole where the cam fits at the INT cam. The groove cut on the cam - there should be a little house shaped marking that should be facing up-this is when the cam is timed correctly at TDC.

    Just some ideas to go by. good luck - DSM
     
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  14. bryanwheat

    bryanwheat DSM Wiseman

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    I see that you do have spark on all 4. I assumed that you had already checked it and had no spark. IF you have spark on all 4 and fuel on all 4 i would look into the wiring on the coolant temp sensor, check the compression and test for the quality of spark in the 4 plugs. A quick way to test everything out is to pull the cas, leave it plugged in and turn the ignition on. From there you can turn the rotor on the shaft clock wise and check each plug for spark, you can also single out each injector and check for proper pulse when you turn it.
     
    #14
  15. jck

    jck Probationary Member

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    Hi,
    I am going to describe the 2 days when he car was running, before the no start occurred.

    Thursday:.... driving home from work I noticed car "trailer hitch" 2 times and then it returned to normal.
    This was while driving on the interstate and was only for a second ...drove car home fine.
    Friday... drove car to work and back normally.

    SATURDAY car started, drove car to store, on the way to store car had low power valves were rattling, as if timing was off, I have driven cars before that were out of time and this is what it reminded me of valves rattling and loss of power.
    Store is only 6 miles round trip. When I returned home I polled plugs, 1 and 4 were a little fouled, 2 and 3 looked normal. I cleaned plugs 1and 4 reinstalled them.

    This is when I swapped coils, restated car and car still ran like before missing bad and running on two cyl. So I changed out plug wires on cyl. 1 and 4.
    I restart car, power was low like running on 2 cyl. And noticeable miss like before. Drove down road towards store, turned around because of low power returned home.
    Pulled plugs and 1 was fouled worst 4 next and 2 and 3 were normal.

    Cleaned plugs 1 and 4 tried to start; car started, but did not want to run. Car Ran on 2 cyl like before.
    Tried to start again car would not start.
    Replaced CTS, it was bad out of spec. CTS wires were checked for proper voltage and this was found d to be ok.
    Car would not start after replacement of CTS.Car turns over but will not start.
    Checked spark have spark on all 4 cyl.

    Pulled fuel return line from fpr, used jumper to connect to battery energized fuel pump and fuel pressure amount coming out of fpr return looked normal.
    When I tried to start car, 2 cranking sessions, I would pull plugs and cyl 1 would be saturated with fuel, 4 would be next wettest, 2 and 3 would be a little wet. Basically this is where I am at, no start and plugs wet with fuel after 2 cranking sessions.
    Car seems to be out of time or something wrong with cyl 1 and 4 not allowing car to start.

    I don't feel ECM is bad because either fuel or spark would not be present.
    CAS possibly defective?
    Fuel pressure too high? This is the same fpr I have had in car for a year. Nothing is stopped up to increase fuel pressure.
    Injectors have been ohmed out and injectors are fine. I am thinking the CAS is defective and not locating TDC and opening injectors at wrong time.

    I do have an oil leak around where CAS mounts. I have another CAS to try ,but it has a male plug and I need a female plug because my CAS has a female connector and the harness side is male.

    If optical sensor in CAS is bad how would car run? Or if oil got into sensor how would car run?

    It is like cyl 1 and 4 are not at tdc when trying to fire. Physical timing is checked and is ok. I replaced timing belt, balance shaft belt and water pump a year ago, but I checked to make sure I didn't have timing belt a tooth off.

    This is a synopsis of what happened prior to the no- start issue. I need another connector for the CAS and I would install it and a fresh set of plugs and see if Eclipse will start.

    Any ideas of what would be causing this no start ...Thx for all replies so far ..jck
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 5, 2014
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  16. delta448

    delta448 DSM Wiseman

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    Check the power transistor.

     
    #16
  17. jck

    jck Probationary Member

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    Hello,
    I have changed out power transistor. I have spark on all 4 cyl. I believe the power transistor is ok.

    I believe the ECU is good due to the following reasons.

    I have removed the ECU, removed the cover and visually inspected it .Everything looks ok, no burnt caps, no bad/burnt smells. No bad wire traces. Also, prior to yesterday wrote down codes that were stored. Then I removed NEG battery cable to erase codes. I used an analog VOM and connected to logger connector. According to Haynes manual if ECM is good the needle will exhibit continuous sweeps from volts 1-12, this is what it did .According to Haynes manual this means ECU is ok. If ECU was bad the needle would stick on 12 volts.
    Also, if ECU was bad I would not have fuel /spark. At least one, fuel or spark would be gone if ECU is defective.

    I am going to recheck fuel pressure tomorrow...but I think my car is out of time or cyl 1 and 4 are not in time. What would cause this? Would CAS cause this? I was told by someone who owns an auto repair shop that when the CAS also is the CPS you will still have a spark but fuel injector opening order would be off.
    Which would be like the timing is off? I tried to start car yesterday and car would try to "catch" to start, but would not start.

    Any Ideas? I need to test CAS. I have a spare CAS, but it has a male plug and the CAS on my car has a female plug.
    Is their a way to check/ test CAS?

    Any ideas would be appreciated?
    Thx jck
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 5, 2014
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  18. bryanwheat

    bryanwheat DSM Wiseman

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    That mechanic is blowing smoke up your ass. The cam angle sensor either works or it doesn't. It is a very simple device. It can't just make the injector timing off on 2 cylinders. IF you have spark and fuel than move on to the next thing.
     
    #18
  19. JwpRider

    JwpRider Proven Member

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    I had read the posts...This may sound dumb, but I would take some time too double check all the wiring, connections, firing order, injector wiring, (make sure all wiring is in the proper place. (would not be the first time something was just overlooked.)

    Second, check the ohms of your CTS, I have recieved the wrong one several times for my 2G (not sure same problems exist for your 1G). It fit, but just gave the wrong values to the ECU, thus flooding the cylinders.
    I would check your coil values...just to make sure. (you mention the coil, transistor, wires, etc were replaced, but did not say it was new or just another one laying around. Checking will 'make sure' they are OK.)

    Third, since it has been a month of trying, I would get some gas treatment and dump in your tank. (Dry gas, octane boost, etc) Gas will get crappy quite quickly depending of the weather.
    One thing that was not mentioned was the MAP sensor, and the IAT sensor. I would check with a meter that this appears functional. These also impact the injector pulse width.

    You mentioned that you has come CEL codes, but did not say what they were and are now 'cleared'. I believe if you were having 'timing/sensor' problems the ECU would have stored 'misfire' codes. (do you know what the codes were?)

    Finally, since the plugs have been fouled so many times, I would verify all the above and get a NEW set of plugs. This is suggested from experence!

    Next time you give it a try, if you have access to a battery charger, or booster I would hook it up. It is possible you do not have enough 'power' to get a good spark going.

    Here are some values to help:
    Ignition coil Primary coil resistance -Ohms= 0.51 _ 0.61
    Secondary coil resistance 11.5- 13.5 K Ohms
    Spark plug gap :048 - .053)
    Spark plug cable resistance = 8K Ohms max

    The engine’s firing order is 1-3-4-2.

    I did not have the specs for the 1G N/T CTS, only the 2G. Maybe someone can provide the ohms measurements for your CTS.

    Just some other things to verify. I had a 2G that would not start...some gas treatment, new CTS and plugs made all the difference. (Three 'wrong' CTS later, fouled plugs too many times)

    Good luck!
     
    #19
  20. jck

    jck Probationary Member

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    Hi,
    I have been employed a lot recently and have not had time to work on the no start issue for the Eclipse 2.0.
    Since I had a day off now, I tried different things to find out why the car would not start.
    I did replace the CTS and the old one was bad . This would causecthe car to be hard starting .But the car still would not start.

    I decided to check something I had checked a few months ago. The ign timing ... the physical timing. The cam marks and the crank pulley TDC did not align up. When I aligned both cams, the bottom crank pulley was approx 25-30 deg off. counterclockwise or to the left of TDC plastic cover mark.

    So my timing belt has skipped approx 20 deg off TDC. I replaced timing belt, water pump and timing tensioner and balance shaft belt approx. 20 thousand miles ago.

    What would cause timing to skip, when a new tensioner was installed 20 or so thousand miles ago?
    Does Idler pulley tension need to be adjusted? I have read forums, but how can timing belt pulley tension be exactly adjusted?

    I have a new replacement timing tensioner to install when realigning everything. Which idler pulley tensioner tool works best? Is idler pulley tension causing the timing belt to skip?

    Thanks, jck
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 5, 2014
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  21. Auto RS T

    Auto RS T Supporting Member

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    How many times were you asked about the compression?...


    Make sure you haven't bent any valves before you waste anymore time.
     
    #21
  22. williamsoa

    williamsoa Proven Member

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    I would like to bring this thread back to life. The same thing is happend to me; no timing belt issue. Piston is TDC, camshafts marks are level, CAS is notch-to-notch. My injectors are firing and spark is good but no start. The only cylinder firing is #4; I pulled all plugs and #4 is sooty, all other plugs are wet with fuel. I connected the spark plugs to the wires and laid them on the fender to crank. All spark plugs fired. A while back I had to replace my AEM box because the motherboard was bad and purchased a 2series. It would start but the idle was rough; next day it wouldn't start. After talking to some techs, they suggested to bypass the resistor and go PH, I did and the car started but the idle was rough and I couldn't tune anything. I have checked everything from compression, spark plugs, spark wires, MPI relay, injectors, all wiring harnesses, power transistors, alternator, including grounding points. I also checed the voltage from pins 21 and 22; 190mV. I checked this on both computers and they read the same. Except when I first swapped out the AEM box with the stock ECU. The stock registered 5v from pin 22; when I cranked the car it dropped down between 2-3 V then in the on position, it consistantly registered 190mV for each pin. Car still will not start. One thing I did not check was the coolant sensor. After reading this post, I did remember when it went bad on my other eclipse, it would not start. I am replacing my CAS tomorrow to see if that will start the car. Oh, I know it is not the computer (checked that too); I plugged in my old ECU and the car still does the same thing #4 fires and the rest seem out of timing. Also, #4 and #3 use to have soot on them when cranking, now it is only #4. I will let you all know what happens, but if you all have any ideas, I am all for them.
     
    #22
  23. 9secSLC

    9secSLC Proven Member

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    ^Keep us updated, seems like this is becoming more and more common.
     
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  24. H@xtGSX

    H@xtGSX Proven Member

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    I discovered something rather annoying that may be helpful with this. I'm not sure, but it smoothed out a slightly rough idle for me. I have a green top, and there is a seal on it for the shaft... These seals are 20 years old, hard, crusty, and cracked... The oil in the head splashes on the CAS through the end of the cam gap. I took mine apart and there was gunk caked up inside on everything, and in an optical sensor, you can infer what the consequences of this would be. It was on the wheel in the holes that determine the timing and I know that made the sensor a tad off... If it had much more in it, the ignition timing would be screwed completely.

    I suggest taking the 1g CAS apart and seeing if it is full of oil sludge and dust. I cleaned mine, put another little rubber o ring on the back of the shaft at the seal, and put it back together. The idle was smooth again. No issues since.
     
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  25. williamsoa

    williamsoa Proven Member

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    I just replaced the CAS and it was not the problem. I double checked the compression and I have 190 across all 4 cylinders.
     
    #25

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