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Turbo System Tech: 4G63 turbos, Intercooling, Boost Control, Wastegates, etc.

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Old 09-16-2011, 02:22 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #1 (permalink)
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Failed Tial wastegate springs


Back in the end of May this year, I had a brand new Tial MVS 38mm external gate with o2 housing from punishment. Less than 500 miles later, I got a "no boost"problem. Turns out after checking everything and finally pulling the turbo, that the wastegate spring had infact heated up from all the under hood heat my tubular manifold was putting out and compressed and stayed in the compressed state causing the gate to open at even 1 psi. (I could blow on the nipple with my mouth an the gate valve would open) and this was on the 17psi spring. So punishment sends me new springs, I put the new springs in and bolt everything back on minus the tubular mani wich I swapped my ported stocker back in to lower temps, and was boosting again. Fast forward to today. Car was parked for the month of june while I was in england so its only been driven since july to now. I am away for work for 2 weeks of each month as well so car is parked for half of the 2 1/2 months. Well I have about 800 highway miles on it and once again am getting no boost, same symptoms as before, this time I was boosting no problem, picked my daughter up from school and on the way home had no boost, just like that it was gone. Did BLT, held 35psi no problem, tightened down all Manifold bolts, did a compression test and got 160,155,150,160 (not bad for 100,460 miles and running 25 psi boost on stock internals for 2 yrs)

Is it possible that there is a problem with the wastegate itself causing the springs to fail?? I had the wastegate for 2 months before they failed the first time, now its been another 2 months since putting brand new springs in it and same thing is happening. Should I pick up a new wastegate and send this one back or is there a bad batch of springs and i just got unlucky both times? Kinda stumped right now on what to do as this is getting old really fast.



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Old 09-16-2011, 02:30 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #2 (permalink)
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My MVS hasn't given me any problems in the about 5000 miles it has been on my car. Do you have the new MVS with water cooling ports? If so you might want to use them. I am not using them on mine since I'm to lazy to plumb extra lines.


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Old 09-16-2011, 02:44 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #3 (permalink)
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Send Tial Tech Support an email and see what they say.

Some times it's good to cut out the middle man and go right to the source (this is in no way a stab at PR, I think they are great).


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Old 09-16-2011, 02:58 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #4 (permalink)
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Go buy an EMUSA for $50 shipped and call it a night.

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Old 09-16-2011, 03:58 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #5 (permalink)
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MVS here too, only put 2,000 miles on it. But zero problems.


I looked in your picture gallery.. I duno... Maybe try heat wraping everything around it?
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Old 09-16-2011, 05:14 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #6 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by RipperXX View Post
MVS here too, only put 2,000 miles on it. But zero problems.


I looked in your picture gallery.. I duno... Maybe try heat wraping everything around it?
Only thing to heat wrap would be exhaust and possibly a turbo blanket. The tubular manifold I have in my photogallery is long gone, I'm back on the ported stock mani. I contacted punishment they also said to contact tial directly. I'm going to pull my fans later and see if I can C-clamp the gate and get the cap off without removing the whole turbo.


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Old 09-16-2011, 06:46 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #7 (permalink)
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I have an FP maifold, and I do have the O2 housing wrapped with a turbo blanket on the turbo. That may help in the survival of my MVS.


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Old 09-16-2011, 10:05 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #8 (permalink)
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Dert, from you pictures it looks like your MVS has provision for water cooling, maybe you should look into that.

What I did, since I run a MHI turbo that has water cooling, is T into my turbo coolant feed and T into the return line also. I run 6AN lines for both, so it was easy to add a T and reducers to 4AN to match the MVS cooling ports.

goodluck


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Old 09-16-2011, 10:25 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #9 (permalink)
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My 57trim is oil only so right now I have a hose looped from the stock turbo coolant feed to the return, I am going to look into running lines right to the gate.


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Old 09-16-2011, 10:34 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #10 (permalink)
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OP, yes your wastegate does have provisions for water lines. The MVS uses different springs then the other Tial wastegates do. I'm not sure on this or not, but the springs used on this wastegate may need to be water cooled or they might heat up too much and cause the spring to stay compressed. If I were you I would hook up water lines to your wastegate, get a new spring and give tial a call to see what they have to say about it. Also make sure the diaphragm isn't get caught in the top of the wastegate when you install the new spring. Here's a vid just for the hell of it. http://www.tialmedia.com/WastegateAssembly.wmv
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Old 09-26-2011, 08:44 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #11 (permalink)
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Well, after being up at 3:30 pm yesterday afternoon, working from 630pm till 630 am, busing to airport to catch a 8am flight, landing at 930 am and driving 3 hrs to come home, as soon as I got home I went to work pulling the turbo and wastegate again, this time I found the diaphram completly torn off and the spring once again the same as last time, compressed.
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Old 09-26-2011, 09:03 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #12 (permalink)
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Woa, that really sucks! Is tial helping you out at all with a warranty replacement on the parts? Just thinking since this is a pretty new gate they might call it part of the developement and help you out. If not it might pay ot get the water lines hooked up or maybe go back to an older tial. I've ran the same gate for over 10 years on the same diaphram (changed the spring once to upgrade it to a 20psi spring for base pressure) but i've enver had issues with the old school gate


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Old 09-26-2011, 09:12 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #13 (permalink)
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First time this happened, springs failed under 500 miles, diaphram ok, got new springs from punishment, less than 500 miles again, spring fails and diaphram is completely torn. So far, I am extremely unhappy with this gate and might unload it cheap and buy something else. I sent Jake from Tial an email last week and forwarded the pics to him tonight, we'll see what happens I guess.


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Old 09-26-2011, 09:31 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #14 (permalink)
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My Emusa eats diaphragms too. I ended up remote mounting the acutator 2" off the valve.

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Old 09-27-2011, 07:47 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #15 (permalink)
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Anybody know where to buy a new diaphragm? Ive asked Tial to send me an invoice for new springs and diaphragm but they seem to want me to go after punishment as they say the pictures of the springs punishment sent me are not legit Tial springs, and they want me to raise hell with them but to be honest I really dont want to have any battles with any company, all Iwant is to get this car running again as that is what is most important. I have a life and no time to sit here bickering with companies trying to get cheap parts replaced. I would rather just swallow the cost and get this back on the road as the explorer just doesnt cut it as my DD, so somebody point me in the right direction please as all I can find so far is Ebay, and I want to be sure I am getting legit parts as I am sick of pulling the turbo to see whats effed up in the gate over and over...then again maybe I should just buy a new gate and o2 housing and call it a day...


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Old 09-27-2011, 08:08 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #16 (permalink)
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Man, that really is quite a dilema. But at least you're not trying to make a big deal of it.

I can say, that I love my turbosmart compgate40
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Old 09-27-2011, 08:38 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #17 (permalink)
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Anybody know where to buy a new diaphragm? Ive asked Tial to send me an invoice for new springs and diaphragm but they seem to want me to go after punishment as they say the pictures of the springs punishment sent me are not legit Tial springs, and they want me to raise hell with them but to be honest I really dont want to have any battles with any company, all Iwant is to get this car running again as that is what is most important. I have a life and no time to sit here bickering with companies trying to get cheap parts replaced. I would rather just swallow the cost and get this back on the road as the explorer just doesnt cut it as my DD, so somebody point me in the right direction please as all I can find so far is Ebay, and I want to be sure I am getting legit parts as I am sick of pulling the turbo to see whats effed up in the gate over and over...then again maybe I should just buy a new gate and o2 housing and call it a day...
How was Tial able to determine that sping isn't one of theirs?

Shop at extremepsi.com for legit Tial parts. They stock springs and diaphragms. And if you decide to replace the entire wastegate, go with Turbosmart.


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Old 09-27-2011, 08:46 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #18 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 99gst_racer View Post
How was Tial able to determine that sping isn't one of theirs?

Shop at extremepsi.com for legit Tial parts. They stock springs and diaphragms. And if you decide to replace the entire wastegate, go with Turbosmart.
Heres the turbosmart line up for wastgates:
TURBOSMART: WASTEGATES

Unfortunately I do not see a 38mm MVS version, there are only 38mm with a two bolt flange. If you switch to Turbosmart, that o2 housing might not suit you.


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Old 09-27-2011, 08:58 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #19 (permalink)
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Heres the turbosmart line up for wastgates:
TURBOSMART: WASTEGATES

Unfortunately I do not see a 38mm MVS version, there are only 38mm with a two bolt flange. If you switch to Turbosmart, that o2 housing might not suit you.
I'm 96.73% sure that the Comp-Gate40 shares the exact same dimensional footprint as the Tial MVS-38. I don't have both in front of me to verify though.


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Old 09-27-2011, 09:12 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #20 (permalink)
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I'm 96.73% sure that the Comp-Gate40 shares the exact same dimensional footprint as the Tial MVS-38. I don't have both in front of me to verify though.
That's an arbitrary number lol, I figured it wouldn't fit because one is 40mm and the other is 38mm, and they have lips that sit within the other flange, 2mm could make all the different when trying to get this unit to fit again.

NVM, I just called Turbosmart USA and they confirmed it is a DIRECT REPLACEMENT I just realized they are referring to the diaphragm size and not the inlet outlet flange size.

Boost on!


Edit: I am definitely getting on of these for my next build, the 40mm is so tiny and compact!


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