Failed Tial wastegate springs

[Dert]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/398662-recirc-38mm-options.html

post #8 I posted pics, it wont let me upload them again so go to this thread, post 8

Here you can see the spot where the end of the spring tacked itself to the cap

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This thing came allready attached to the o2 housing when I bought it and it will leave still attached. There is NO way in hell this thing is coming off. I beat the piss out of it with a rubber mallet, a plastic mallet and even wrapped a towel around the head of my titanium stilletto hammer, it did not move a hair. All I am doing is marking it up even with the rubber mallet. Its almost as if it is welded on there. I give up, I am stating that this thing is a piece of shat and I will be welding the flapper hole closed and having a flange welded on the exhaust manifold for whatever new wastgate I buy, will be EASILY ACCESSABLE Hell I might as well buy an ebay wastgate because i will probably get more than 1000 miles out of it. I basically spent $600 on a paperweight, the gate failed twice in 6 months and the o2 housing made me cut and bash the hell out of my fan and it STILL hit the alternator. Nobody else seems to have had any problems with their PR o2 housings clearence, guess I got the one made on a monday or friday...anyways like I said, I'm 245lbs and i beat the sh*t out of this thing from all angles, it wont budge, Tial can have the whole thing...

 

[turboglenn]

The only thing that makes sense is that the springs must be getting "red hot" and losing their temper. Spring steel is amazingly strong with incredible memory, BUT, heat it up red hot ONCE for a SHORT time and it's done for, it will collapse to the pressure put on it or if heated and allowed to cool in it's orginal shape it will snap once it's asked to "function" and try to return to it's memory state.

I have 1/4 scale RC cars and i've seen something similar with our cyntrifugal clutches, once i get them through a few real nasty heat cycles (16k + RPM on the heel of a friction shoe that's constantly rubbing and locking rubbing and locking) and once it's seen a few too many of those really hot cycles it will collapse out and lose it's springy'ness or snap (just trashed on yesterday in about 25 minutes of tuning in the street out front) All that's been brought to light is the heat is too intense there fore we vent the clutches for cooling or upgrade to a clutch without the spring in such close contact with the shoe's of the clutch.. I would think that it has to be these types of heat cycles sacking out the spring, after all we all know what color a manifold/turbo turns when under full boost for a little while with an nice crisp tune (glows red) I would say that if yopu moved your WG further away from the turbine OR ADDED the water cooling lines all this would go away.. just my 0.02

 

[govproperty]

Old Tial 38mm wastegate springs are 3 3/8" tall. I don't know about the MVS-38 though.

 

[Dert]

The only thing that makes sense is that the springs must be getting "red hot" and losing their temper. Spring steel is amazingly strong with incredible memory, BUT, heat it up red hot ONCE for a SHORT time and it's done for, it will collapse to the pressure put on it or if heated and allowed to cool in it's orginal shape it will snap once it's asked to "function" and try to return to it's memory state.

I have 1/4 scale RC cars and i've seen something similar with our cyntrifugal clutches, once i get them through a few real nasty heat cycles (16k + RPM on the heel of a friction shoe that's constantly rubbing and locking rubbing and locking) and once it's seen a few too many of those really hot cycles it will collapse out and lose it's springy'ness or snap (just trashed on yesterday in about 25 minutes of tuning in the street out front) All that's been brought to light is the heat is too intense there fore we vent the clutches for cooling or upgrade to a clutch without the spring in such close contact with the shoe's of the clutch.. I would think that it has to be these types of heat cycles sacking out the spring, after all we all know what color a manifold/turbo turns when under full boost for a little while with an nice crisp tune (glows red) I would say that if yopu moved your WG further away from the turbine OR ADDED the water cooling lines all this would go away.. just my 0.02

That is exactly what I stated the first time it happened, as I know for a fact that my tubular manifold was giving off tremendous heat, wich is why after I put the new spring in it, I also switched back to my ported stock manifold, underhood temps dropped drastically, but yet here I am again with a shot spring. The spring in the pic started out about 4 inches tall when i first put it in, now its about an inch and half. My main issue is getting it off the o2 housing now, but I might just say eff it, throw the housing and gate in the dumpster, buy a new turbosmart gate and run it off the manifold so if I ever have issues again i can easily get at it without pulling the whole damn turbo off...wich i've done so many times now I can pull the whole thing with the manifold in less than 10 min , but yeah thats besides the point, I'm pretty much fed up with this thing now...

 

[turboglenn]

Why not just plumb the un-used water lines that went to the turbo to the MVS, not only will you have the points for cool factor "water cooled wastegate Yo!" but it might solve all your problems as well

 

[teenvette77]

Anybody know if the MVS-38 springs are shorter than the regular 38mm gate springs?

Yes, i am in the turbos and machinist division as well as the engineers slave, but the internals of the mvs are completely different from the old 38 from what i have seen. I have heard chatter around the shop about people sending back couterfit springs for credit so why wouldnt they send the gates out with them? If they order the gates without springs its a good discount. I have no idea if Punishment is actually doing this and am in no way accusing them of it.

As for heat collapsing a real Tial spring....i just dont think thats going to happen. We test these things without coolant at Rally car exhaust temps, or something like that.

As for telling that its fake visually...they just can. You look at them everyday over and over, things just 'dont look right' you know? With my limited knowledge i thought something looked off but i couldnt tell you with 100% certainty what. Something to do with the paint on it and thickness of the coil. The clipped ends look weird to me too.

If Jake says send it in to us, i would do so. We will get everything figured out for you.

But like i said, im just a machinist and assembler for turbos so take my word with a grain of salt. Heres a video of testing with heat sinks and no coolant. We had a vid of a regular mvs or so i thought. I know we have been cycling it for weeks without failure. I cant begin to state how many life cycles that would be. Cool video of a Chinese knockoff failing on his page too.

Endurance MV-S testing - YouTube

 

[Dert]

I have a great idea, I'll buy a brand new mvs with 17.40 psi springs in it directly from you guys at Tial, beat the piss outta this one I got until it comes off the housing then I will send it to you and you can examine it and test if it's fake or not and can get my car back on the road KNOWING that it has a legit gate and springs on it, sounds like a good deal to me send me an invoice!!!


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[teenvette77]

I have a great idea, I'll buy a brand new mvs with 17.40 psi springs in it directly from you guys at Tial, beat the piss outta this one I got until it comes off the housing then I will send it to you and you can examine it and test if it's fake or not and can get my car back on the road KNOWING that it has a legit gate and springs on it, sounds like a good deal to me send me an invoice!!!


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Lol, if i could do that i would. Im just a peon though...=(

If you send it in, we replace the parts that are wrong and the turnaround is very quick. Some warranty some not. Depends.

Keep bugging the crap out of Jake.

 

[TSIMonsteR]

I can attest to TiAL being very quick. At one point, they even traded springs with me on a new gate that had been sent with the wrong psi spring. I've always been impressed with TiAL products and will be following this thread to see what happened to that thing!

 

[Dert]

Alright Tial, looks like you are going to be getting it still attached to the o2 housing I even got my old man who is a machinist millwright to try and get it off, he had no luck either, he figures the o2 housing flange somehow got slightly warped, or maybe the gate flange warped and now it is stuck on there, so Tial, I will be sending the gate on the housing, with the gate parts still off and in a bag, the wrecked spring, and the old 2 springs that origionally came with it when i bought it, see what you can do. Get that one off, slap a new one with new springs on there, invoice me, I'll buy the new gate, send it back to me and keep the old one for science , hell I make enough $$ working in oilfield in northern alberta, would only be 3 or 4 hrs of work for me to buy a new one , So Jake, if you read this, thats what I wanna do!!!

 

[teenvette77]

So Jake, if you read this, thats what I wanna do!!!

Email him your idea then i guess. Atleast ill get to play with the mapp gas....muahahahahaaaaa!

 

[red92tsi]

Alright Tial, looks like you are going to be getting it still attached to the o2 housing I even got my old man who is a machinist millwright to try and get it off, he had no luck either, he figures the o2 housing flange somehow got slightly warped, or maybe the gate flange warped and now it is stuck on there, so Tial, I will be sending the gate on the housing, with the gate parts still off and in a bag, the wrecked spring, and the old 2 springs that origionally came with it when i bought it, see what you can do. Get that one off, slap a new one with new springs on there, invoice me, I'll buy the new gate, send it back to me and keep the old one for science , hell I make enough $$ working in oilfield in northern alberta, would only be 3 or 4 hrs of work for me to buy a new one , So Jake, if you read this, thats what I wanna do!!!

Lets order one for me too then.

 

[andy4g63]

OP, sorry to hear about your problems, but there are several things that come to mind::


-It might have been defective spring, but then it happen second time..It's a little too much don't you think??

- spring too long /don't have enough travel, so it gets compressed all the way and stays there /, or improperly installed...Basically I think that when WG is fully open the springs are still not supposed to be compressed all the way/like in the photo you provided.


-diaphragm was pinched, causing it to get torn

-your tubular mani might may have caused extremely hot underhood temps, but this will contribute actually to little lower temp. inside the WG.. As we all know the cast mani keep the heat inside...

-I don't have MVS, I had a Tial 44, but was having a little boost creep problems/which actually were due to a TIAL BOV top nipple getting a little loose,anyways having this problem I have tested various combos of TIAL springs in my 44 and they were OK.. In few cases, even the paint/they are different colors/was staying, they looked brand new ... And I am talking going out with the car and doing continuous boosting to test.

-check the facts calmly, inspect everything and see what both sides have to say..
Someone will be at guilt, so they have to return your money.. GL and keep us posted

 

[Dert]

OP, sorry to hear about your problems, but there are several things that come to mind::


-It might have been defective spring, but then it happen second time..It's a little too much don't you think??

- spring too long /don't have enough travel, so it gets compressed all the way and stays there /, or improperly installed...Basically I think that when WG is fully open the springs are still not supposed to be compressed all the way/like in the photo you provided.


-diaphragm was pinched, causing it to get torn

-your tubular mani might may have caused extremely hot underhood temps, but this will contribute actually to little lower temp. inside the WG.. As we all know the cast mani keep the heat inside...

-I don't have MVS, I had a Tial 44, but was having a little boost creep problems/which actually were due to a TIAL BOV top nipple getting a little loose,anyways having this problem I have tested various combos of TIAL springs in my 44 and they were OK.. In few cases, even the paint/they are different colors/was staying, they looked brand new ... And I am talking going out with the car and doing continuous boosting to test.

-check the facts calmly, inspect everything and see what both sides have to say..
Someone will be at guilt, so they have to return your money.. GL and keep us posted

Thanx for the post, I just find it odd that both people from Tial agree that the springs don't look right. These guys see thousands of these springs they know what they are looking at. The first time it happened I can't confirm if anything was installed correctly as it's was assembled when I got it, this time I was carefull that the spring was in right and did not pinch the diaphragm. I'm not here to point fingers as to who is right or wrong or to get money back, I'm here because my car has spent very little of it's life on jackstands and I want to keep it that way and be back driving again ASAP.


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[Dert]

For those who are following this thread, I have packaged up the gate as requested by TiAL, with the spring and also included the 2 origional springs that failed the first time so they can determine if they are infact TiAL springs. The gate is still attached to the o2 housing also as I could not get it to budge. I will update as soon as hear what their findings are, thanx for all your replies- Gary

 

[teenvette77]

Cant wait to tear into it! One question...did it come with only one spring inside or was it only one that had failed? For 17.4psi you need one grey spring And one maroon...

 

[Dert]

Cant wait to tear into it! One question...did it come with only one spring inside or was it only one that had failed? For 17.4psi you need one grey spring And one maroon...

The first time it happened there was 2 springs, hard to tell colors because the paint almost burnt off but I'm sure one is maroon, when I sent an assortment of replacement springs I only started out using 2 but the gate was opening at almost 30psi, so I put in different springs until I found 1 that opened at 20psi, that's a giveaway right there as Tial uses 2 springs starting at 10psi and 3 spring for 18+psi so this single spring was for about 20psi? I should have questioned it right away but was more happy with having my car on the road again, so that is my fault. You will see these springs when you get it. I should have sent the other 3 springs that I never used that were sent to me so you can have a look at them too. I will take some close up pics of them so you can check them out.


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[teenvette77]

Not your fault. I would have done the same thing. Pics of the others would be great. I would send pics to Jake as well and include a ruler behind the springs for reference.

Not speaking as an employee of TiAL mind you, but from personal experiences and opinion, i prefer to order my own DSM parts from AMS, ExtremePSI, MAPerformance, and Forced Performance. They seem like good people. There are hundreds of reputable and respectable distributors of TiAL products though and i have no clue how to weed out the poor ones...i guess like forums and posts like this one. And as we learn about these things we will update our website section for fake products.

 

[Dert]

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[Dert]

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[Dert]

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[Dert]

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Ok, these are the remaining 3 of the 4 springs that were sent to me as replacements for the origional 2 (17.40psi) that failed the first time. The 4th spring I was sent is the one in my first pics that is compressed. It started out as long as the 2 bigger springs. Sorry for the multiple posts, it's wouldn't let me upload them all at once from my phone.


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[Dert]

TiAlL has repaired my Gate and sending it back, they had to use MAP gas and heat up the housing to get it to expand enough to pop it off and same method to get it back on. The springs didn't look right to them and they still don't think they are theirs. I guess I will see how it holds up and if it fails again I'll be making a change.


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[honda_burner]

Probably not really relevant but im curious. Did they warranty it?

 

[RipperXX]

All I can say is that, having replaced the springs in my Tial MVS for ones of less pressure (since I bought it used) your springs you posted do NOT look like the Tial ones I purchased from Extremepsi. What im personally looking at is the way the color was applied, mine honestly looked like someone just lightly hit them up with paint via spray gun/can or something. Add to that the ones I removed looked the same, and had been on a car boosting 20psi for a little while, the springs looked perfect, perfect enough when I removed the last screw and didn't have the hat and gate in a clamp they shot the hat clear across the room, screws and all!!!! *eek* . Talk about embaressed even though no one else was around, and looking around for quite a while for all the screws. SOB had some pressure on it for sure! A lot more than I expected anyway. Also the diaphram looked perfect in my used unit, and I have had zero issues out of it.

Sooo, something was for sure off about the guts to your unit imo. I hope when you get your setup back it works as it should. It makes since that the guts had to be fake parts though considering I have never heard of this happening to anyone else. (though that doesn't mean it hasn't) and Tial sells a lot of WG's....