Failed Tial wastegate springs

Posted by Dert, Sep 16, 2011
Turbo System Tech - 4G63 turbos, Intercooling, Boost Control, Wastegates, etc.

  1. Dert

    Dert Proven Member

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    Back in the end of May this year, I had a brand new Tial MVS 38mm external gate with o2 housing from punishment. Less than 500 miles later, I got a "no boost"problem. Turns out after checking everything and finally pulling the turbo, that the wastegate spring had infact heated up from all the under hood heat my tubular manifold was putting out and compressed and stayed in the compressed state causing the gate to open at even 1 psi. (I could blow on the nipple with my mouth an the gate valve would open) and this was on the 17psi spring. So punishment sends me new springs, I put the new springs in and bolt everything back on minus the tubular mani wich I swapped my ported stocker back in to lower temps, and was boosting again. Fast forward to today. Car was parked for the month of june while I was in england so its only been driven since july to now. I am away for work for 2 weeks of each month as well so car is parked for half of the 2 1/2 months. Well I have about 800 highway miles on it and once again am getting no boost, same symptoms as before, this time I was boosting no problem, picked my daughter up from school and on the way home had no boost, just like that it was gone. Did BLT, held 35psi no problem, tightened down all Manifold bolts, did a compression test and got 160,155,150,160 (not bad for 100,460 miles and running 25 psi boost on stock internals for 2 yrs)

    Is it possible that there is a problem with the wastegate itself causing the springs to fail?? I had the wastegate for 2 months before they failed the first time, now its been another 2 months since putting brand new springs in it and same thing is happening. Should I pick up a new wastegate and send this one back or is there a bad batch of springs and i just got unlucky both times? Kinda stumped right now on what to do as this is getting old really fast.
     
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  2. SOADweskey

    SOADweskey Proven Member

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    My MVS hasn't given me any problems in the about 5000 miles it has been on my car. Do you have the new MVS with water cooling ports? If so you might want to use them. I am not using them on mine since I'm to lazy to plumb extra lines.
     
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  3. Blurred Talon

    Blurred Talon Proven Member

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    Send Tial Tech Support an email and see what they say.

    Some times it's good to cut out the middle man and go right to the source (this is in no way a stab at PR, I think they are great).
     
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  4. 2slow4utsi

    2slow4utsi Proven Member

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    Go buy an EMUSA for $50 shipped and call it a night.
     
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  5. RipperXX

    RipperXX Proven Member

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    MVS here too, only put 2,000 miles on it. But zero problems.


    I looked in your picture gallery.. I duno... Maybe try heat wraping everything around it?
     
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  6. Dert

    Dert Proven Member

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    Only thing to heat wrap would be exhaust and possibly a turbo blanket. The tubular manifold I have in my photogallery is long gone, I'm back on the ported stock mani. I contacted punishment they also said to contact tial directly. I'm going to pull my fans later and see if I can C-clamp the gate and get the cap off without removing the whole turbo.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  7. SOADweskey

    SOADweskey Proven Member

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    I have an FP maifold, and I do have the O2 housing wrapped with a turbo blanket on the turbo. That may help in the survival of my MVS.
     
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  8. agentorange313

    agentorange313 Supporting VIP

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    Dert, from you pictures it looks like your MVS has provision for water cooling, maybe you should look into that.

    What I did, since I run a MHI turbo that has water cooling, is T into my turbo coolant feed and T into the return line also. I run 6AN lines for both, so it was easy to add a T and reducers to 4AN to match the MVS cooling ports.

    goodluck
     
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  9. Dert

    Dert Proven Member

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    My 57trim is oil only so right now I have a hose looped from the stock turbo coolant feed to the return, I am going to look into running lines right to the gate.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  10. crazyquik22023

    crazyquik22023 Proven Member

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    OP, yes your wastegate does have provisions for water lines. The MVS uses different springs then the other Tial wastegates do. I'm not sure on this or not, but the springs used on this wastegate may need to be water cooled or they might heat up too much and cause the spring to stay compressed. If I were you I would hook up water lines to your wastegate, get a new spring and give tial a call to see what they have to say about it. Also make sure the diaphragm isn't get caught in the top of the wastegate when you install the new spring. Here's a vid just for the hell of it. http://www.tialmedia.com/WastegateAssembly.wmv
     
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  11. Dert

    Dert Proven Member

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    Well, after being up at 3:30 pm yesterday afternoon, working from 630pm till 630 am, busing to airport to catch a 8am flight, landing at 930 am and driving 3 hrs to come home, as soon as I got home I went to work pulling the turbo and wastegate again, this time I found the diaphram completly torn off and the spring once again the same as last time, compressed.
    diaphram.jpg

    diaphram1.jpg
     
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  12. turboglenn

    turboglenn Proven Member

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    Woa, that really sucks! Is tial helping you out at all with a warranty replacement on the parts? Just thinking since this is a pretty new gate they might call it part of the developement and help you out. If not it might pay ot get the water lines hooked up or maybe go back to an older tial. I've ran the same gate for over 10 years on the same diaphram (changed the spring once to upgrade it to a 20psi spring for base pressure) but i've enver had issues with the old school gate
     
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  13. Dert

    Dert Proven Member

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    diaphram2.jpg

    wastegate spring.jpg

    First time this happened, springs failed under 500 miles, diaphram ok, got new springs from punishment, less than 500 miles again, spring fails and diaphram is completely torn. So far, I am extremely unhappy with this gate and might unload it cheap and buy something else. I sent Jake from Tial an email last week and forwarded the pics to him tonight, we'll see what happens I guess.
     
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  14. bastarddsm

    bastarddsm Freelancer

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    My Emusa eats diaphragms too. I ended up remote mounting the acutator 2" off the valve.
     
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  15. Dert

    Dert Proven Member

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    Anybody know where to buy a new diaphragm? Ive asked Tial to send me an invoice for new springs and diaphragm but they seem to want me to go after punishment as they say the pictures of the springs punishment sent me are not legit Tial springs, and they want me to raise hell with them but to be honest I really dont want to have any battles with any company, all Iwant is to get this car running again as that is what is most important. I have a life and no time to sit here bickering with companies trying to get cheap parts replaced. I would rather just swallow the cost and get this back on the road as the explorer just doesnt cut it as my DD, so somebody point me in the right direction please as all I can find so far is eBay, and I want to be sure I am getting legit parts as I am sick of pulling the turbo to see whats effed up in the gate over and over...then again maybe I should just buy a new gate and o2 housing and call it a day...
     
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  16. constant_proj21

    constant_proj21 Proven Member

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    Man, that really is quite a dilema. But at least you're not trying to make a big deal of it.

    I can say, that I love my turbosmart compgate40 :)
     
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  17. 99gst_racer

    99gst_racer Moderator

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    How was Tial able to determine that sping isn't one of theirs?

    Shop at extremepsi.com for legit Tial parts. They stock springs and diaphragms. And if you decide to replace the entire wastegate, go with Turbosmart.
     
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  18. agentorange313

    agentorange313 Supporting VIP

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    Heres the turbosmart line up for wastgates:
    TURBOSMART: WASTEGATES

    Unfortunately I do not see a 38mm MVS version, there are only 38mm with a two bolt flange. If you switch to Turbosmart, that o2 housing might not suit you.
     
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  19. 99gst_racer

    99gst_racer Moderator

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    I'm 96.73% sure that the Comp-Gate40 shares the exact same dimensional footprint as the Tial MVS-38. I don't have both in front of me to verify though.
     
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  20. agentorange313

    agentorange313 Supporting VIP

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    That's an arbitrary number LOL, I figured it wouldn't fit because one is 40mm and the other is 38mm, and they have lips that sit within the other flange, 2mm could make all the different when trying to get this unit to fit again.

    NVM, I just called Turbosmart USA and they confirmed it is a DIRECT REPLACEMENT I just realized they are referring to the diaphragm size and not the inlet outlet flange size.

    Boost on!


    Edit: I am definitely getting on of these for my next build, the 40mm is so tiny and compact!
     
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  21. 99gst_racer

    99gst_racer Moderator

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    Close. That measurement should be referring to the diameter of the valve head. Turbosmart squeezes a slightly larger valve into the same size body and flange that Tial is using. IIRC, they accomplish this by modifying the valve seat (which Synapse also does).

    Thanks for verifying interchangeability.

    Same here! I'll be using a 45mm and a 60mm on my next compound build. :)
     
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  22. Dert

    Dert Proven Member

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    Im not sure how they can tell, I sent a pic of the springs I was sent after the first time they failed as I was sent "whatever extra springs they had laying around" along with the newly failed spring and got this response...

    IMG_2569.jpg

    This is a picture off my Iphone email

    As long as the turbosmart isnt any taller than the mvs I should be fine, as of right now, my MVS hits the alternator so anything bigger is useless...I think my o2 housing may have been made slightly off as others dont seem to have an issue, I have pics of how I had to bash my fan in just to get the punishment o2 and Tial gate to fit, but yeah, it hits alternator so it has to be smaller or same size.
     
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  23. 99gst_racer

    99gst_racer Moderator

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    I find it odd that Jake mentions the sping "not fitting", when it clearly fit fine (as far as anyone can tell). And how would a compressiong spring cause the diaphragm to contact anything any all (these spings shouldn't bow enough to affect anything)? His e-mail response makes little sense to me. And I would expect that they would need more information than just a picture to determine if the spring is authentic or counterfit.

    With that being said; I've ran over a dozen different Tial springs over the years and I've never had one fail or underperform. So, it wouldn't surprise me if yours is a fake. I would honestly expect a generic China spring to hold up better than that. This is the first time I've ever seen a wastegate spring go plastic like that. I'm now wondering is the spring was too tall, resulting in it going solid (binding) and eventually stressing it to the point of losing it's height and rate? If I were a betting man, that's what I'd bet on.

    Anybody know if the MVS-38 springs are shorter than the regular 38mm gate springs?

    Post a picture of how it fit. My buddy runs the same gate and O2 housing and his fit great without any issues.
     
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  24. Dert

    Dert Proven Member

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    Funny thing is, when I first bought the gate and o2 housing back in april or may, it was brand spanking new and the springs (2 of them for the 17.40 psi rating) looked exactly the same as this one when they failed. So now my question is was my gate origionally sent to me with fake springs? Perhaps, but regardless, the exact same thing happened with this "new" spring in it and this time the diaphragm completely tore as well. As for fitment look in my photos on here, there are a few. Jake requested I send my unit in, so as soon as I figure out how to get it off the o2 housing I will send it to him. I undid the vband clamps but the cant get it off the housing...any tips?? LOL The cap of the gate also has score marks on it and you can see where the spring welded itself to the cap
     
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  25. 99gst_racer

    99gst_racer Moderator

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    I was looking for pics of it installed on your engine... And I don't see any pics of the cap either.

    After the clamps are removed, just wack it with the heal of your hand or tap it with a rubber mallet. It'll come loose.

    Be sure to less us know what Tial says after they've got it in their hands.
     
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