EVOIII w/ Tial F40 WG Issues

[Peepers]

Guys,
I have a boost issue and want some advice on how to attack it ….
I’m running and EVOIII 16g that I’ve converted to run an external wastegate (Tial F40) via a SS 02 housing dumped back into my 3” Megan DP followed by a 3” Vibrant high flow metal core cat followed by a complete 3” exhaust system – custom made. I’ve tacked the flapper to stay open and I run an AVC-R to control boost. My WG spring is yellow - 10.153 psi and my AVC-R settings are A – 15psi and B – 20psi. I installed this setup at the same time I did an AWD swap (Spyder). I installed a brand new TRE stage 3 tranny while I did the swap and since I wanted to follow the tranny brake in procedure I stayed away from boost for the first 1000 miles. Now that I’m past that I’m starting to get into boost and I’m having huge creep issues. With the AVC-R off (10.153psi) it’ll hold approx. 10psi to 5800-6000rpm but anything past 6000rpms it creeps over 20psi (I let off cause I don’t know how far it’ll creep). With the AVC-R at A – 15psi, the same thing - it’ll hold approx. 15psi to 5800-6000rpm but anything past 6000rpms it creeps over 20psi (I let off cause I don’t know how far it’ll creep). I haven’t even tried to set the B setting yet because I’ll know it’ll start to creep.

Any ideas / thoughts on why I’m getting so much creep?

 

[Spoolin18]

Guys,
I have a boost issue and want some advice on how to attack it ….
I’m running and EVOIII 16g that I’ve converted to run an external wastegate (Tial F40) via a SS 02 housing dumped back into my 3” Megan DP followed by a 3” Vibrant high flow metal core cat followed by a complete 3” exhaust system – custom made. I’ve tacked the flapper to stay open and I run an AVC-R to control boost. My WG spring is yellow - 10.153 psi and my AVC-R settings are A – 15psi and B – 20psi. I installed this setup at the same time I did an AWD swap (Spyder). I installed a brand new TRE stage 3 tranny while I did the swap and since I wanted to follow the tranny brake in procedure I stayed away from boost for the first 1000 miles. Now that I’m past that I’m starting to get into boost and I’m having huge creep issues. With the AVC-R off (10.153psi) it’ll hold approx. 10psi to 5800-6000rpm but anything past 6000rpms it creeps over 20psi (I let off cause I don’t know how far it’ll creep). With the AVC-R at A – 15psi, the same thing - it’ll hold approx. 15psi to 5800-6000rpm but anything past 6000rpms it creeps over 20psi (I let off cause I don’t know how far it’ll creep). I haven’t even tried to set the B setting yet because I’ll know it’ll start to creep.

Any ideas / thoughts on why I’m getting so much creep?

I would try and switch to a MBC, see if that helps. I don't like elctronic boost controllers. I've never seen one that will hold the set psi, they always creep.

 

[gofer]

Guys,
I have a boost issue and want some advice on how to attack it ….
I’m running and EVOIII 16g that I’ve converted to run an external wastegate (Tial F40) via a SS 02 housing my 3” Megan DP followed by a 3” Vibrant high flow metal core cat followed by a complete 3” exhaust system – custom made. I’ve tacked the flapper to stay open and I run an AVC-R to control boost. My WG spring is yellow - 10.153 psi and my AVC-R settings are A – 15psi and B – 20psi. I installed this setup at the same time I did an AWD swap (Spyder). I installed a brand new TRE stage 3 tranny while I did the swap and since I wanted to follow the tranny brake in procedure I stayed away from boost for the first 1000 miles. Now that I’m past that I’m starting to get into boost and I’m having huge creep issues. With the AVC-R off (10.153psi) it’ll hold approx. 10psi to 5800-6000rpm but anything past 6000rpms it creeps over 20psi (I let off cause I don’t know how far it’ll creep). With the AVC-R at A – 15psi, the same thing - it’ll hold approx. 15psi to 5800-6000rpm but anything past 6000rpms it creeps over 20psi (I let off cause I don’t know how far it’ll creep). I haven’t even tried to set the B setting yet because I’ll know it’ll start to creep.

Any ideas / thoughts on why I’m getting so much creep?

spoolin18 could be correct about the mbc but when i read your post i think theres one thing ^^^ thats causing your creep problems.
for some reason, at least in my experience, 16g's love to creep when you've got exhaust from the turbo back big enough to drop a pool ball into and watch it roll out the back.
i think your biggest creep culprit is the "tacked" flapper. removing it all together might be in your best interest. although its tacked open its still creating turbulance in your exhaust in the higher RPMs. exhaust flows like water/electricity and will take the path of least resistance. even though you are externally gated your getting some restriction pre wastegate which creates turbulance in the exhaust. its wanting to take the easiest path out the back and its flowing across the turbine in the higher RPMs which in turn causes it to creep.
while your in there removing the flapper you might consider porting the hotside (if you haven't already) and prevent the 90 degree turn the exhaust has to make out to the wastegate. theres are great "how to" porting threads all over tuners and vfaq.com.

other than that ENJOY that AWD man. out of all the bolt on performance crap ive done to my DSM i think the best mod i did to my GS-T was making it AWD.

 

[pmanaresi]

i am in agreement about the wastegate flap. once you reach high rpms there is alot more exhaust volume moving through the turbo. having an external wastegate with the flapper in the way is causing a restriction at high exhaust gas volumes. toss the flapper and weld the flapper pushrod hole shut and you should be creep free.

 

[rEclipserGST]

i am in agreement about the wastegate flap. once you reach high rpms there is alot more exhaust volume moving through the turbo. having an external wastegate with the flapper in the way is causing a restriction at high exhaust gas volumes. toss the flapper and weld the flapper pushrod hole shut and you should be creep free.

+1 Did you by chance port that wg hole out any? Your def suppose to do that if your running off the o2 housing.

 

[donniekak]

You are still using thesame creep prone wastgate orifice. Tack it shut and use a manifold mounted wastegate. With a turbosmart ultragate 38mm off of runner 1 on a modified evo cast manifold i could run 7-30+ psi rock solid on any turbo. With a straight 3" exhaust.

 

[gofer]

You are still using thesame creep prone wastgate orifice. Tack it shut and use a manifold mounted wastegate. With a turbosmart ultragate 38mm off of runner 1 on a modified evo cast manifold i could run 7-30+ psi rock solid on any turbo. With a straight 3" exhaust.

hell yea

... but seriously, instead of replacing your entire setup and wasting all that cash you've already spent just remove that flapper altogether, weld the wg push rod hole closed, then port that small flapper hole open to allow more flow down to your external and VWALA! you'll be holding whatever psi of boost that 4 cyl. can handle.

 

[Peepers]

Thanks for the replies guys.

I just did a few logs (DSMLink) with the AVCR off and disconnected. Only connected the pressure source to the WG to see what would happen? So with a 10psi spring, I didn't hit over 20psi according to my log but my Defi gauge was reading 20-22psi and was very shaky. My first pull (only to 6800rpm - got scared @ the 19sec mark) I went from 8psi @ 4000 to 19.1psi @ 6700. My second pull (7300 @ the 47sec mark) I went from 8psi @4200 to 19.4psi @ 7250.

Thoughts?

 

[gofer]

your current mod list in your profile reads that you "wish" you could run a bigger turbo, bigger injectors, & an SAFC. so right now im assuming that thing needs updated *cough* *cough*
personally i wouldn't do this but i know MANY do and it could save you some stripped turbo bolts, time, and money. most that creep to 20psi just tune to 20psi and call it a day...

since you'll be updating a lot of your profile info with your current mods in the "update profile" drop down menu under "car" there is a "eclipse spyder AWD" option. just an FYI.

 

[Peepers]

Mod List updated .... it's been a while

 

[Rob10_99]

Your log shows 97% tps, needs a little adjusting =)
2nd pull showed 93% TPS wtf?

An idea to fix your creep, the area around where the WG flapper seals is now not needed, why not just hog out the entire area? I'm sure the whole area would hurt flow immensely, maby just the leading edge hogged out?

 

[daren_p]

personally i wouldn't do this but i know MANY do and it could save you some stripped turbo bolts, time, and money. most that creep to 20psi just tune to 20psi and call it a day...

Thats what I've been telling him, thow in some head studs, set boost at 24psi & forget about creep He's got some hang up about having a 15psi setting, whats that all about

Your log shows 97% tps, needs a little adjusting =)
2nd pull showed 93% TPS wtf?

An idea to fix your creep, the area around where the WG flapper seals is now not needed, why not just hog out the entire area? I'm sure the whole area would hurt flow immensely, maby just the leading edge hogged out?

May not have been on the pedal 100% but anything over, what is it 92 or 93% is considered WOT by the ecu, so should be alright.

The hogging out the WG hole area is a good idea but I don't think he plans on keeping the evoIII forever, which is why he just tacked the WG flapper open in the first place. That way it can be converted back to internal to sell, as most buyers for that sized turbo will still be looking to run internal.

I believe he's got his eyes open for a spare turbine housing, for us to modify.

 

[BeatupVR4]

i am in agreement about the wastegate flap. once you reach high rpms there is alot more exhaust volume moving through the turbo. having an external wastegate with the flapper in the way is causing a restriction at high exhaust gas volumes. toss the flapper and weld the flapper pushrod hole shut and you should be creep free.

Do you realize how little the flapper moves under normal operation? If it is tacked all the way in the open position it's about 4 times more open than the wastegate would ever open it so I highly doubt its causing the creep issues.

Its the crap zero radius 90 that the gas must take to be diverted that's the culprit. I had similar creep with a 16G and a 2.5" exhaust and a night with a porting bit solved that. Since its an external gate open the hole up and bell-mouth the entire circumference of the hole, think velocity stack. Done and done.

 

[rEclipserGST]

Do you realize how little the flapper moves under normal operation? If it is tacked all the way in the open position it's about 4 times more open than the wastegate would ever open it so I highly doubt its causing the creep issues.

Its the crap zero radius 90 that the gas must take to be diverted that's the culprit. I had similar creep with a 16G and a 2.5" exhaust and a night with a porting bit solved that. Since its an external gate open the hole up and bell-mouth the entire circumference of the hole, think velocity stack. Done and done.

If he has a WG mounted onto the o2 housing, then yes it is CREEP issues. He HAS to port the hole out. Many people have covered this in boost creeping threads when running an o2 housing mounted wastegate.

 

[BeatupVR4]

If he has a WG mounted onto the o2 housing, then yes it is CREEP issues. He HAS to port the hole out. Many people have covered this in boost creeping threads when running an o2 housing mounted wastegate.

I don't understand if you're agreeing with me or trying to argue. Or maybe you hit the quote button by accident?

 

[daren_p]

Do you realize how little the flapper moves under normal operation? If it is tacked all the way in the open position it's about 4 times more open than the wastegate would ever open it so I highly doubt its causing the creep issues.

Its the crap zero radius 90 that the gas must take to be diverted that's the culprit. I had similar creep with a 16G and a 2.5" exhaust and a night with a porting bit solved that. Since its an external gate open the hole up and bell-mouth the entire circumference of the hole, think velocity stack. Done and done.

This was exactly my thoughts about the WG flapper. As you say, with the internal WG the flapper opens maybe 45 deg at most, so it would obviously be a much larger restriction vs a welded open flapper.

He never use to have an issue with creep with the internal gate. Now his turbine housing has already been modified abit, believe he bought it with the 34mm flapper & then we ported the turbo & also did the required porting to help the poorly designed WG passage (remove material from top inlet, smooth out obstructions on outlet, etc). So once he switched to external, he started to get creep. Now I believe part of the problem why creep has just shown up is he's probably flowing better now, then when he was running an internal as he also switched from a Greddy FMIC, stock ported O2, think some sort of reg high flow cat & a RSR cat-back to an ETS race FMIC setup, tubular O2 housing, metal core high flow cat, & a true 3" custom exhaust.

The WG is recirculated into the DP, so we were going to verify no obstructions with the dump meeting the DP & also bench test the WG to verify it functions correctly. Other then that, it seems more modifications would have to be made to the turbine housing (want to get as spare as mentioned above), or just run more boost

 

[Peepers]

I think Daren knows my car more than I do ... wait, he really does !!