20g - Where's the fast ones

[pickens]

I searched and searched. Believe it or not, I didn't find much credible info on 20g's! I would think that there should be tons of logs and stats that people have showed. Maybe, most people just don't run 20g's anymore I found alot of speculation, but not too many who actually ran a 20g the way it should.

In any event, I wanna see what airflow vs boost people are seeing w/ 20g setups (logs would be great). FWIW, I see most people rate the max flow @ 44 lb/min, but I have to believe they flow more than that. I also heard alot of people say 400whp can be had on a 20g w/ pump gas all day long, but I couldn't find but one dyno sheet that made 385whp.

I'm basically looking to see if a 20g will flow around 44 lb/min at pump gas boost levels (22-24psi).

 

[almostquick]

I searched and searched. Believe it or not, I didn't find much credible info on 20g's! I would think that there should be tons of logs and stats that people have showed. Maybe, most people just don't run 20g's anymore I found alot of speculation, but not too many who actually ran a 20g the way it should.

In any event, I wanna see what airflow vs boost people are seeing w/ 20g setups (logs would be great). FWIW, I see most people rate the max flow @ 44 lb/min, but I have to believe they flow more than that. I also heard alot of people say 400whp can be had on a 20g w/ pump gas all day long, but I couldn't find but one dyno sheet that made 385whp.

I'm basically looking to see if a 20g will flow around 44 lb/min at pump gas boost levels (22-24psi).

I dont know about flow, when I was running my 20G last year I was making 380hp on 110 octane at 28psi. At the time the only other guy that I knew of that was competitive at the time was Tort with an 11.0, I ran 11.50 my second and third time out at the track with it both on a mix of e85/pump 91 and leaded 110. I ended up selling it since I got a decent deal on a 60-1.

 

[JusMX141]

A 20G has become very unpopular due, in part, to the fact that there are so many hybrid turbos available these days that perform better dollar for dollar.

I still like the fact that a 20G remains a direct bolt-on upgrade, using all the stock oil lines, coolant lines, and hardware. Sometimes you can wrap up a nice chunk of change in those fancy-pants oil supply and drain lines for Garretts.

 

[pickens]

Exactly, everybody brings up Tort or Buschur when it comes to the 20G (they ran 10.xx at 12x mph). Yea, yea, yea.

Thanks for posting up some actual first hand experience with numbers to back it up.

It seems like all the fast (11.xx) times on the 20G are with race gas and lightened up rides.

 

[daren_p]

I highly doubt you'll see 44lb/min on 22-24psi on your average 2g setup. I'm sure you can probably see that flow out of a 20g but it will take more boost then that. To get you closer to that goal, you'll want the TD06 turbine wheel version for sure. I don't even see that much airflow with my 3052 at 24 psi. At that boost level I see 41-42 lb/min & this is with FP1X cams (not designed for topend flow but obviously flow better then the stockers) & a stock intake mani. The GT30R turbine wheel on my 3052 is a better flowing wheel vs the TD06 wheel & the turbine housing itself is also better flowing. If you want to see that kind of airflow at that boost level on a 2g, you'll need a better top end cam such as a 272 varient & a SMIM to increase VE.

 

[b00stedtalon2]

I have the Buschur 20g on my car right now. I plan on taking my car into the high 10's with it, but we shall see in spring.

 

[pboglio]

I highly doubt you'll see 44lb/min on 22-24psi on your average 2g setup. I'm sure you can probably see that flow out of a 20g but it will take more boost then that. To get you closer to that goal, you'll want the TD06 turbine wheel version for sure. I don't even see that much airflow with my 3052 at 24 psi. At that boost level I see 41-42 lb/min & this is with FP1X cams (not designed for topend flow but obviously flow better then the stockers) & a stock intake mani. The GT30R turbine wheel on my 3052 is a better flowing wheel vs the TD06 wheel & the turbine housing itself is also better flowing. If you want to see that kind of airflow at that boost level on a 2g, you'll need a better top end cam such as a 272 varient & a SMIM to increase VE.

That sucks. I was looking to make big power on the FP3052 on moderate boost levels. I'd rather not have to go to a built head or sheetmetal intake manifold. What is your opinion on the FP3052 in terms of spool and performance if you don't mind me asking?

I'm also interested in the 20g as well since I've studied some DSMLINK datalogs showing 20g's running in the 120 mph range in the 1/4 mile. Only bad thing I've heard of is shaft & thrust bearing failures. Maybe somebody with experience can comment.

 

[daren_p]

That sucks. I was looking to make big power on the FP3052 on moderate boost levels. I'd rather not have to go to a built head or sheetmetal intake manifold. What is your opinion on the FP3052 in terms of spool and performance if you don't mind me asking?

I think the 3052 is a great street turbo & still can put down some nice power at the same time. 42 lb/min is still moving a good amount of air, don't get fooled by alot of the false info out there. Lots of guys either "inflate" their actual lb/min or are running uncalibrated GM MAF's that tend to inflate airflow. I know in the past when I've compared some logs/claims of guys flowing more then me, my car ends up pulling faster 70-90 times & I defently don't have a perfect tune (well atleast not that Im aware of ). The GT30R wheel can defently flow a good amount, just need the proper supporting mods for it to do so. Like I said my cams aren't ideal to see big "max airflow" readings (but the car has a mean 4500-6500 mid range power curve) & the stock 2g intake mani sure isn't helping things either. My airflow is flat by 6500 rpms, if I was running a larger cam & better intake mani, Im sure I'd easy see another 4-5 lb/min by 7500 rpms. The turbo isn't my limiting airflow factor. If I strapped on a GT35R & ran it at the same boost, I more then likely wouldn't see much gains either, maybe a couple lb/min. Its all about increasing VE to max out the turbo potential & the 3052 defently has alot more in it. With the proper setup I wouldn't see any issues seeing the 52 lb/min its rated for (& people have made a good amount more then this). I'm still very happy with this turbo & not upgrading for awhile, (& if I do it will probably be a GT35R) until I see the full potential out of it.

 

[pickens]

Daren P - Thats what I figured. Most people will only be able to flow a max of 42-43 lb/min on pump gas with a stock manifold and 20G. I just don't see that alot of people can make 400whp on pump.

 

[Boost Demon]

I had a TDO-6H 20g and at 18psi (on Cali 91oct).I was flowing 38-39lb/min. Unfortunately I had to sell it because my 7-bolt crapped out on me. It was a great bolt-on turbo, but just to expensive to buy new, as was mention already

 

[pboglio]

Yeah, just tossed the numbers into a spreadsheet and 7000 rpm, 24 psi corresponds to roughly 44 lb/min or so.

This is kinda why I'm probably going to buy a GT3076R for my STi instead. Way better pump gas capability. Even with only 21 psi I would still be able to pull 50 lb/min due to the 25% bigger displacement.

 

[definitiveno]

Why not an hta35r for the sti?

 

[daren_p]

Why not an hta35r for the sti?

If I had to upgrade from my 3052, thats what I'd be looking at But that would only happen once I get closer to seeing the full potential of my current setup (still has alot more in it) & probably if this car was demoted to a secondary daily driver. For the type of daily driving I currently have to do, the lag on the 3052 works perfect for me.


I should also mention my car has full emissions & while the CAT is a high flow 3" unit, it's obviously still a restriction & the resonator on my Apexi N1 system necks down to about 2" (getting a new custom SS 3" exhaust in the spring). Sure these aren't helping me see max airflow either. So, your results may vary from what I posted above but I was refering to an "average" setup. Just don't want people thinking they can strap on a 75 lb/min turbo on a "stockish" 2g setup & see close to 75 lb/min. Its all about the "supporting mods". The most I saw out of my evoIII was 34-35 lb/min, so the 3052 is a nice jump in power. I have an evoIII intake mani (need to keep the stock look) & with the new, hopefully better flowing exhaust, looking to see 45 lb/min this summer at the same boost levels, time will tell.....

 

[pboglio]

Why not an hta35r for the sti?

If it spools as fast as a GT3076, then I'd look into it. STi is my street car and I want it somewhat streetable but with some decent mods. I don't plan on exceeding the stock 7000 rpm band on my STi, not until I rotate it into project/race car status.

 

[definitiveno]

Give it a look over


Forced Performance: FP3582HTA Turbo

 

[TurboAnything]

a customer car i built this year took a Tdo5h-20g to it's max. It has a ross/eagle combo with 8.3:1. Fp2 cams with a 2g manifold ported and a custom 3 inch o2 housing and external 46mm gate With DSMlink. After all is said and done the car is fast flowing 42lbs/min and running low 11s. I tried to get more out of the car at the end of the summer but it made no difference We put on a Forrester intake and a 75mm wilson throttle body and i made 3 inch aluminum upper piping and cut off the old 2.5 outlet for the piping on the intercooler and made it 3in there too. The car is stuck at 42lbs/min at 32psi.

 

[pboglio]

a customer car i built this year took a Tdo5h-20g to it's max. It has a ross/eagle combo with 8.3:1. Fp2 cams with a 2g manifold ported and a custom 3 inch o2 housing and external 46mm gate With DSMlink. After all is said and done the car is fast flowing 42lbs/min and running low 11s. I tried to get more out of the car at the end of the summer but it made no difference We put on a Forrester intake and a 75mm wilson throttle body and i made 3 inch aluminum upper piping and cut off the old 2.5 outlet for the piping on the intercooler and made it 3in there too. The car is stuck at 42lbs/min at 32psi.

The 2g MAS is a major restriction, around 1 psi of pressure loss at 500 cfm. I removed it completely on my 2g and run the HKS VPC instead. Picked up 3 psi at 7000 rpm (17 psi increased to 20 psi) and 25 h.p. just from the reduced intake restriction. I was flowing 37 lb/min before that, don't know now but I'd not be surprised to see 40 lb/min near redline on my little T28 If you can't get it into the turbo, no amount of mods will make a difference. Same way the WRC cars get restricted, right at the compressor inlet

 

[Steve93Talon]

The 2g MAS is a major restriction, around 1 psi of pressure loss at 500 cfm. I removed it completely on my 2g and run the HKS VPC instead. Picked up 3 psi at 7000 rpm (17 psi increased to 20 psi) and 25 h.p. just from the reduced intake restriction. I was flowing 37 lb/min before that, don't know now but I'd not be surprised to see 40 lb/min near redline on my little T28 If you can't get it into the turbo, no amount of mods will make a difference. Same way the WRC cars get restricted, right at the compressor inlet

I HIGHLY doubt a 2G MAF would become a restriction at that boost level and on that turbo. There are plenty of guys with DSMlink running 2G MAFs and flowing enough air to run 10s and faster. There are guys with smaller EVO MAFs making 600whp.

As for the 20g, I don't have any useful logs because when Tort ran the 20g, he was still on a stock ECU and we basically just looked at RPM, timing, and knock on the TMO. He's been through 2 turbos since he decided to go bigger, still not happy. The 20g definitely spoils you with it's unparalleled mix of spool up and top end potential.

 

[daren_p]

The 2g MAS is a major restriction, around 1 psi of pressure loss at 500 cfm. I removed it completely on my 2g and run the HKS VPC instead. Picked up 3 psi at 7000 rpm (17 psi increased to 20 psi) and 25 h.p. just from the reduced intake restriction. I was flowing 37 lb/min before that, don't know now but I'd not be surprised to see 40 lb/min near redline on my little T28 If you can't get it into the turbo, no amount of mods will make a difference. Same way the WRC cars get restricted, right at the compressor inlet

Just wondering what your 70-90 mph times are, what kind of IDC do you see & do you have any 1/4 times (with 60ft & mph)? Those flow numbers seem to be on the high side with that kind of boost (this is running 20 psi?) for the T28, especially since it looks like your running a stock 2g head & intake mani with 264 cams.

 

[pboglio]

Just wondering what your 70-90 mph times are, what kind of IDC do you see & do you have any 1/4 times (with 60ft & mph)? Those flow numbers seem to be on the high side with that kind of boost (this is running 20 psi?) for the T28, especially since it looks like your running a stock 2g head & intake mani with 264 cams.

I don't have 1/4 mile times, I'm a DSMLINK datalog junky though. There is a log somewhere of me pulling 4.18s 0-60 though.

No, boost is spiking to 25 psi, settling to 22 psi and stying there till about 6200 rpm, then dropping to 20 psi at 7000 rpm. Usually I pull around 80-83% duty cycle on my 660cc injectors on the 2g MAF. The VPC setup still runs super lean, maybe 78% on the same DSMLINK fuel settings. Right now I can't log accurate airflow, the VPC "calculates" airflow and way way underreports it to the ECU, that is why the car runs massively lean when I first install it without cranking the fuel sliders up on the DSMLINK fuel settings to compensate.

70-90 times were 2.65s in the 2nd log, that is about 3 years old though at a much lower h.p. setup, I'm pulling another 40 h.p. now. I'll post a 3rd gear expressway pull in a couple days, I'd expect about 2.5 seconds based on how much more power I'm making now than in that old log.

The other log is a race gas tune I did earlier today. I usually use a 43-63 mph time in 2nd gear to gauge acceleration, which is currently about 1.37 seconds. That is pretty quick, usually takes a car trapping around 114 mph in the quarter to match that number.

Peak h.p. is at 374 h.p. crank and 325 h.p. at the wheels (DSMLINK). Dyno graph looks a little wobbly for reasons I haven't pinned down yet, might be the home brew race fuel I mixed up, not sure.

 

[arash15]

I don't have 1/4 mile times, I'm a DSMLINK datalog junky though. There is a log somewhere of me pulling 4.18s 0-60 though.

No, boost is spiking to 25 psi, settling to 22 psi and stying there till about 6200 rpm, then dropping to 20 psi at 7000 rpm. Usually I pull around 80-83% duty cycle on my 660cc injectors on the 2g MAF. The VPC setup still runs super lean, maybe 78% on the same DSMLINK fuel settings. Right now I can't log accurate airflow, the VPC "calculates" airflow and way way underreports it to the ECU, that is why the car runs massively lean when I first install it without cranking the fuel sliders up on the DSMLINK fuel settings to compensate.

70-90 times were 2.65s in the 2nd log, that is about 3 years old though at a much lower h.p. setup, I'm pulling another 40 h.p. now. I'll post a 3rd gear expressway pull in a couple days, I'd expect about 2.5 seconds based on how much more power I'm making now than in that old log.

The other log is a race gas tune I did earlier today. I usually use a 43-63 mph time in 2nd gear to gauge acceleration, which is currently about 1.37 seconds. That is pretty quick, usually takes a car trapping around 114 mph in the quarter to match that number.

Peak h.p. is at 374 h.p. crank and 325 h.p. at the wheels (DSMLINK). Dyno graph looks a little wobbly for reasons I haven't pinned down yet, might be the home brew race fuel I mixed up, not sure.

Things arent comming together in these logs. First, your knocking throughout the entire log, i would decrease timing to fix that, (if you are happy with your a/f ratio). The HP values are an estimate, and if you dont put in the proper values in the props, then the estimate will be off. You have put only a .15 drivetrain loss. Thats incorrect for whp. The VPC must really need to be calibrated if you are flowing more than 30lbs/min, but regardless, the T28 is rated at around 360 hp. Which is roughly flowing 36 lbs/min.

Tuning with Br7es plugs has less tendancy to knock.

 

[pboglio]

I HIGHLY doubt a 2G MAF would become a restriction at that boost level and on that turbo. There are plenty of guys with DSMlink running 2G MAFs and flowing enough air to run 10s and faster. There are guys with smaller EVO MAFs making 600whp.

As for the 20g, I don't have any useful logs because when Tort ran the 20g, he was still on a stock ECU and we basically just looked at RPM, timing, and knock on the TMO. He's been through 2 turbos since he decided to go bigger, still not happy. The 20g definitely spoils you with it's unparalleled mix of spool up and top end potential.

No, it's a restriction. It's 1 psi at 500 cfm. Your average 16g sized turbo will pick up 5-7% airflow if that turbo is maxxed out already. I've already proved that with back to back datalogs. Something like the FP3052 would pick up closer to 10% airflow if it was already maxxed out. Turbo 101, pretty simple really. Garrett has a nice write up on compressor correction formula's and what not, good reading

 

[dsm-onster]

No, it's a restriction. It's 1 psi at 500 cfm. Your average 16g sized turbo will pick up 5-7% airflow if that turbo is maxxed out already. I've already proved that with back to back datalogs. Something like the FP3052 would pick up closer to 10% airflow if it was already maxxed out. Turbo 101, pretty simple really. Garrett has a nice write up on compressor correction formula's and what not, good reading

Since when does 1 psi difference at 500cfm equal 5-7% difference in mass airflow a 500-600 cfm?

I've swapped from a 1G maf to a MAFT in blow through and saw no difference in boost by redline with my 60-1. How can your wastegate actuator not see that extra 3 psi?

 

[Whiteshadow]

20g's are old news and are still expensive

 

[pboglio]

Things arent comming together in these logs. First, your knocking throughout the entire log, i would decrease timing to fix that, (if you are happy with your a/f ratio). The HP values are an estimate, and if you dont put in the proper values in the props, then the estimate will be off. You have put only a .15 drivetrain loss. Thats incorrect for whp. The VPC must really need to be calibrated if you are flowing more than 30lbs/min, but regardless, the T28 is rated at around 360 hp. Which is roughly flowing 36 lbs/min.

Tuning with Br7es plugs has less tendancy to knock.

Yep, I'm knocking in that log. I'm also knocking in this log too, but I'm also running an aggressive timing curve which is giving me my power gains. This log is on the 2g MAF, which is dead stock in every way. I'm pulling 37 lb/min in 2nd gear, kind of hard to argue that fact. I'm not quite at the limit of the T28 though under these atmospheric conditions. At these temps a T28 would pull about 39 lb/min. Pull the MAF and run a VPC as in my other log and that limit would go to 41 lb/min.

I am definitely running more than my previous 37 lb/min since I'm pulling about 20-30 more peak h.p. on the VPC setup, but less than 41 lb/min, what exactly that value is I have no physical way to tell at this point due to the VPC's airflow cap value. The VPC makes airflow values impossible to decipher, at this point I fall back on in gear acceleration times and w.h.p. estimates for tuning purposes.

My props are correct, trust me. I'm running "massively" heavy 16" steel wheels on heavy 215/55 Blizzak snow tires on a full stock weight 2g AWD. I'd be pulling faster times on the stock 17" rims if I had them installed. The w.h.p. is what it is, just set the drivetrain value to 0%.

Yes, the HKS VPC needs calibration badly. I don't have DSMLINK V2 otherwise I would have tweeked the VE maps to compensate for the VPC.