BEP 50-trim VS. MHI TD0620g

[92lzerNA]

I have both a BEP 50-trim with a to4e cover, and a MHI 20g tdo6 turbo. But I dont know which one I want to use on my car and sell the other set up. The 50-trim is internally gated on a 2g mani and port 2g 02, and the 20g is on a EVO mani with a tial 38mm external gate and tubular o2. I have a buschar racing fmic, 255lph pump, 660's and chipped eprom etc. for supporting mods. Thank you.

 

[b00stedtalon2]

You should like the 20g. I have the Buschur Racing 20g on my car. Made 410AWHP on pump gas.

 

[rhamlinii]

You should like the 20g. I have the Buschur Racing 20g on my car. Made 410AWHP on pump gas.

Your car looks bad-ass.

 

[JusMX141]

I recommend the 20G as well. They have a reputation for making big, streetable power while maintaining a quick spool; but the biggest plus is that a 20G uses all of your existing oil and coolant lines so there's no need for additional hardware for fitment.

Another key benefit is the 20G has a water-cooled center housing for greater reliability. I know most Bullseye turbos use a dry center housing (oil cooled, no coolant) which can become a reliability issue on a car used as a daily-driver.

 

[dsm-onster]

I strongly recommend the 50trim barring some unusual turbine. . . Which wheel do you have? a t3 stage 3 turbine wheel in a bep housing will flow as much as a td06h turbine wheel in a 7cm^2 turbine housing and spool at the same rpm. And then you have the more efficient and higher flowing 50-trim compressor.

That's a great reason to buy oil lines. . .

 

[92lzerNA]

Well the BEP 50 trim is already on the car. I think I am going to go with the 20g though because I dont think with my set-up I will fully utilize the 50-trim. Also I want the boost control of the external gate and I think I will beable to utilize more of the ability of the tdo6h 20g.

 

[dsm-onster]

I don't see a FMIC in your mods list. You don't have enough intercooler, injectors, proper fuel control, or exhaust for either turbo. . .

 

[rhamlinii]

Well the BEP 50 trim is already on the car. I think I am going to go with the 20g though because I dont think with my set-up I will fully utilize the 50-trim. Also I want the boost control of the external gate and I think I will beable to utilize more of the ability of the tdo6h 20g.

If that's the case, I wonder why all three of my friends with 50 trims can't hang with my 20g with a small tdo5h wheel? Peak power and compresser maps looks great on paper. A useful power band and a setup that works well together will win everytime.

 

[92lzerNA]

I don't see a FMIC in your mods list. You don't have enough intercooler, injectors, proper fuel control, or exhaust for either turbo. . .

I have a Buschar racing fmic, and imo 660's and a 2.5" exhaust is good enough. The is also a gm maft I need to install, already a safc and chipped eprom so if that is proper fuel control I dont know what is. Also I bought the 660's and 2.5 in exhaust off of friend of mine that mad 380whp so they are good enough for me. But I do need to update my mod list on here I quess.

 

[dsm-onster]

I have a Buschar racing fmic, and imo 660's and a 2.5" exhaust is good enough. The is also a gm maft I need to install, already a safc and chipped eprom so if that is proper fuel control I dont know what is. Also I bought the 660's and 2.5 in exhaust off of friend of mine that mad 380whp so they are good enough for me. But I do need to update my mod list on here I quess.

650s are better. It won't be enough to push a 20g but good for about 400hp. . . If that is your goal, then you'll do fine.

Stock exhaust could flow enough for 400whp. The key is how easy do you want it.

 

[prostreetdsmx1]

I highly recommend the 50. I love the 50 in a way that is almost disturbing. I like it's power band and quality. BEP's housing is PERFECT for that application too.

 

[dsm-onster]

. . . I love the 50 in a way that is almost disturbing. . .

Have your burned your finger tips tenderly caressing the compressor housing?

BEP's housing is PERFECT for that application too.

I agree. A t3 stage turbine (best for the 50-trim) loves the bep housing. The combo yields lightning quick spool and you can run to the limit of the 50-trim wheel and keep exhaust manifold pressure w/in reason.

The bep housing is excellent for a evo3 exaust manifold. It does not need to be hogged out to port match. It fits the 7 cm^2 gasket well. The 2g exhaust manifold could use a bit of opening up. But, just smoothing it out should do just fine and is more than enough for most.

 

[rhamlinii]

650s are better. It won't be enough to push a 20g but good for about 400hp. . . If that is your goal, then you'll do fine.

Stock exhaust could flow enough for 400whp. The key is how easy do you want it.

The stock exhaust would be a huge bottle neck for 400whp. 650's on race gas, depending on fuel pressure would be more then enough for a 20g to be pushed to the limit. I trapped 118 with my car on 550s, if you do the math for a full weight. That's way over your 400 crank hp. Also my friend trapped 123 with his 20g powered 2g. I'm not even bringing up Tort's car, i'm just talking about what I and a close friend has done with our cars.

 

[dsm-onster]

The stock exhaust would be a huge bottle neck for 400whp.

HAHA! Of course it would be a bottleneck! I'm just stating that it would work: slow spool and unnecesarily high boost would be included in the final result. I was pointing out that smaller exhaust (2.5" or less) is OK, but there are tremedous benefits to 3" exhaust in the 350+ hp range. . .Far less than where a 20G can take him.

650's on race gas, depending on fuel pressure would be more then enough for a 20g to be pushed to the limit. I trapped 118 with my car on 550s, . . .

Not w/out running into VERY high %IDC.

. . . if you do the math for a full weight. That's way over your 400 crank hp.

??? If you're going to be rude, be sure you double check what was said

Way over is not 10 hp over what I actually mentioned. How much do you think your car weighs? There likely is a discrepancy. DSM.org's Simple Horsepower Calculator.

Also my friend trapped 123 with his 20g powered 2g. I'm not even bringing up Tort's car, i'm just talking about what I and a close friend has done with our cars.

Not w/out running into VERY high %IDC (if running 650s).

I base my suggestions on a Brake Specific Fuel Consumption of 0.6 to 0.65; proper for turbocharged applications. ALSO, the highly recommended and commonplace rule-of-thumb 80% idc rule. Purchasing a set of injectors only to run them over 80% IDC is not logical nor wise. This DRASTICALLY increases the opportunity of premature solenoid coil failure and fuel metering accuracy goes south. What's possible is not neccesarily what's proper. This also applies to running 2.5" or stock exhaust w/ an otherswize 400whp setup, a situation of which you have already commented. Besides, considering the op wishes to flash an EPROM, why go so small?

If you do not want to hastle w/ the BSFC calculations, here are some calculators that use the proper BSFC number for turbocharged applications. See RBR Racing's fuel calculator. 4 * 650cc * 80%IDC = 2080 . This yields enough for 396 hp. See also the DSM_Tuning_Sheet_v2.1.xls. This gives 399 hp at 80%IDC.

Your particular 20G vs. 50-trim experiences are not valid to this thread. If any td05h setup is beating any COMMON 50-trim setup, then driving skills and/or base tuning skills should be questioned. This gentleman's setup w/ a 50trim and proper injectors can trap higher MPH in shorter time than your setup did. Any average 50-trim hybrid yields much higher overall VE than an 05h hotside; and consequently quite a bit more hp per psi. The 50-trim may look good on paper but looks better at the track.

This gentleman does not have a mismatched setup overall. Again give him 3 inch exhaust, and he's quite capable of eclipsing your ET and trap speed. He has plenty of usable powerband. A run-of-the-mill 50-trim spools just as quick (or a little quicker) as a td06h 20g and 2-300 rpms slower than a td05h.

 

[rhamlinii]

HAHA! Of course it would be a bottleneck! I'm just stating that it would work: slow spool and unnecesarily high boost would be included in the final result. I was pointing out that smaller exhaust (2.5" or less) is OK, but there are tremedous benefits to 3" exhaust in the 350+ hp range. . .Far less than where a 20G can take him..

He has an 2.5 inch exhaust, and yes he stands to gain power going to a 3inch exhaust. The only point is why would you even try something that retarded as 400whp on a stock exhaust? Do you have any data to support anyone making 400whp+ on a stock exhaust w/o a cut out? Also if you did try it, do it on your time. Why even bring it upin this thread?

Not w/out running into VERY high %IDC.

Yes, but two fuel pumps and a high base pressure sure did help me out. So if I trapped 118 on race gas, he still would have more fuel with 650s then I did with 550s. One thing your forgetting, is that 550's at 55 psi don't flow like 550's at 43.5 psi. Add 27 psi-30psi to that and look at how much fuel I really had. The same holds true if you had 650s. On a side note, you don't have to run 1000's to make 400whp unless you want to do it on pump gas and rich air/fuel levels. Big injecters never perform like smaller ones, that's a fact. Why do you need a huge injecter for a street car with a small turbo? For a Race car and 800awhp levels go with 1600s. I refuse to argure that fact any further. People should make a goal, and buy according to what they need. That's my opinion on that issuse.

Your particular 20G vs. 50-trim experiences are not valid to this thread. If any td05h setup is beating any COMMON 50-trim setup, then driving skills and/or base tuning skills should be questioned. This gentleman's setup w/ a 50trim and proper injectors can trap higher MPH in shorter time than your setup did. Any average 50-trim hybrid yields much higher overall VE than an 05h hotside; and consequently quite a bit more hp per psi. The 50-trim may look good on paper but looks better at the track.

This gentleman does not have a mismatched setup overall. Again give him 3 inch exhaust, and he's quite capable of eclipsing your ET and trap speed. He has plenty of usable powerband. A run-of-the-mill 50-trim spools just as quick (or a little quicker) as a td06h 20g and 2-300 rpms slower than a td05h.

Maybe your right, but the truth is. What should of, could of, would of, just didn't happen. I already told you that I've run some "COMMON" 50 trim setups. Who cares if a 50 trim turbo out flows mine by 5 pounds? When my motor is alot more efficent then theres, and my setup works better then theres. I know my car is not faster then every 50 trim car out there, and i'm not saying it is. What have you proved, accept that you may understand a compresser map. As I said, it's all about the setup in general that makes good useable power. You sir, are forgetting that. A turbo doesn't mean anything, if your car isn't built around it. Everything has to work together or in they're case ,not at all. The best example of this is Leon Rietmans 11.6 @ 116 with a 14b. You also have SBR evo 16g car running 10.49 @134. Those are actual and factual cars that prove in general everything you may "like" to know. That turbos really aren't everything, when it comes to building a car. Even tho they're rare examples, they still happened. Both cars may be lighten, but neither is gutted. Having a smaller 20g, PTE 50 trim, and a FP Green. Almost nothing felt better then my 20g on this new motor, accept the 30r on this motor and the 35r on my last setup. The 20g setup I run just feels great at 27psi and c116. I stand by what I said and that is, "I choose a 20g over a 50trim based turbo". Running each and every turbo at some point, I love where it is. However, if I was to put an fp green on this setup. I'm sure my car would be faster then the current 20g setup, but just not as fun to drive. I have no-way of testing that theroy, nor do I want to at this time. I was only saying that my 20g car has beaten some 50 trim cars. It's really bad when it's from a roll and they're FWD.

PLEASE READ MY CURRENT SETUP PROFILE- I did the 11 second pass at 118 mph on a stock motor with cams, arps, and metal headgasket. Stock head, intake manifold, 7.8 to 1compression pistions, ACT flywheel, and a ACT 2600 clutch. I and a friend just threw it together, and then it finally went south after I started using nitrous and maxed out the fuel system.

The next setup will be a 14b/nitrous setup.

 

[dsm-onster]

He has an 2.5 inch exhaust, and yes he stands to gain power going to a 3inch exhaust. The only point is why would you even try something that retarded as 400whp on a stock exhaust? Do you have any data to support anyone making 400whp+ on a stock exhaust w/o a cut out? Also if you did try it, do it on your time. Why even bring it upin this thread?

??? Think about what I typed again. I did no recommend doing this.

I was bringing it up to demonstrate that pushing a part/system of parts may yield a goal, but still is not practical or as easy. . . Similar to running 55 psi base fuel pressure w/ 550s and a 20G.

Yes, but two fuel pumps and a high base pressure sure did help me out. So if I trapped 118 on race gas, he still would have more fuel with 650s then I did with 550s. One thing your forgetting, is that 550's at 55 psi don't flow like 550's at 43.5 psi. Add 27 psi-30psi to that and look at how much fuel I really had. The same holds true if you had 650s. On a side note, you don't have to run 1000's to make 400whp unless you want to do it on pump gas and rich air/fuel levels. Big injecters never perform like smaller ones, that's a fact. Why do you need a huge injecter for a street car with a small turbo? For a Race car and 800awhp levels go with 1600s. I refuse to argure that fact any further. People should make a goal, and buy according to what they need. That's my opinion on that issuse.

That IS NOT a fact. 92lzerNA, note that my FIC 1000cc injectors idle just like stock. . . Even w/ FP2Xs, BR7ES's, ISC blocked, 37 psi base pressure, no matter what time of year. So do thousands of others. . .

Rhamlinii, I'm not forgetting anything. 550s at 55 psi base flow a measly 12% more at higher deadtime due to force countering the solenoid travel. Not even enough to flow at the next higher available size 650cc. Running 550s/650s w/ a 20G and an eprom is about as rediculous as running stock exhaust expecting 400whp. Do you know how sharply a single Walbro 255HP drops off in flow at 55 psi base? 55GPH or 208LPH, rewired. Try doing this w/ a 190 (which otherwise is fine for 400hp at reasonable fuel pressure and proper injectors). I'd rather spend my time tuning than fabbing a multi-pump system. . . If you ran this 550cc setup w/ a EPROM then you were asking for trouble. If you ran this 550cc setup without an EPROM, then your experience is not relavent to the thread.

So yes, give this up. . . 92lzerNA, no one should underbuild fuel delivery, especially when drivability is conserved. If we only build for our goal then there's no room for AFTER. Rhamlinii is a clear example: blowing his engine after adding nitrous. Buy once, buy right. 650s are not enough for these turbos at normal fuel pressure. Give yourself headroom, especially where a flashed EPROM is employed.

Maybe your right, but the truth is. What should of, could of, would of, just didn't happen. I already told you that I've run some "COMMON" 50 trim setups. Who cares if a 50 trim turbo out flows mine by 5 pounds? When my motor is alot more efficent then theres, and my setup works better then theres. I know my car is not faster then every 50 trim car out there, and i'm not saying it is. What have you proved, accept that you may understand a compresser map. As I said, it's all about the setup in general that makes good useable power. You sir, are forgetting that. A turbo doesn't mean anything, if your car isn't built around it. Everything has to work together or in they're case ,not at all. The best example of this is Leon Rietmans 11.6 @ 116 with a 14b. You also have SBR evo 16g car running 10.49 @134. Those are actual and factual cars that prove in general everything you may "like" to know. That turbos really aren't everything, when it comes to building a car. Even tho they're rare examples, they still happened. Both cars may be lighten, but neither is gutted. Having a smaller 20g, PTE 50 trim, and a FP Green. Almost nothing felt better then my 20g on this new motor, accept the 30r on this motor and the 35r on my last setup. The 20g setup I run just feels great at 27psi and c116. I stand by what I said and that is, "I choose a 20g over a 50trim based turbo". Running each and every turbo at some point, I love where it is. However, if I was to put an fp green on this setup. I'm sure my car would be faster then the current 20g setup, but just not as fun to drive. I have no-way of testing that theroy, nor do I want to at this time. I was only saying that my 20g car has beaten some 50 trim cars. It's really bad when it's from a roll and they're FWD.

PLEASE READ MY CURRENT SETUP PROFILE- I did the 11 second pass at 118 mph on a stock motor with cams, arps, and metal headgasket. Stock head, intake manifold, 7.8 to 1compression pistions, ACT flywheel, and a ACT 2600 clutch. I and a friend just threw it together, and then it finally went south after I started using nitrous and maxed out the fuel system.

The next setup will be a 14b/nitrous setup.

Wow, and all this arguement is for naught considering I am not discussing compressors. . .

BTW, what makes you think I havn't read your current setup???And, why is it relevant?

92lzerNA, a t3 stage3 turbine or a td06h turbine flow way more than what 650s can give up at fuel pressures that will not skew deadtime, spray pattern, fuel pump peak flow, etc.

 

[420a-t]

What do you guys think would spool faster, and what one would be better to net a low 11-second pass? I know this is kind of a vague question, but I am wondering if it would be best to use a tdo520g, tdo620g, or a 50 trim. A turbo that hits full boost before 4k would be optiomal for me between the three. Thanks

 

[rhamlinii]

??? Think about what I typed again. I did no recommend doing this.

I was bringing it up to demonstrate that pushing a part/system of parts may yield a goal, but still is not practical or as easy. . . Similar to running 55 psi base fuel pressure w/ 550s and a 20G..

If you say so, I brought up the 550s and a 20g because that's what i've ran in my car.

That IS NOT a fact. 92lzerNA, note that my FIC 1000cc injectors idle just like stock. . . Even w/ FP2Xs, BR7ES's, ISC blocked, 37 psi base pressure, no matter what time of year. So do thousands of others. . ..

Dead time can be adjusted, I personaly don't agree with getting 1000s just because you can. I believe you should buy things as you need them. The question was could the 650's work for his setup and the answer is still yes. If you think thousand of people do it everyday with 1000s, then more have done it with 660cc injecters and smaller injeceters thru the years. It's just a 20g, not a 35r, 37r ,40r, or 42r.

Rhamlinii, I'm not forgetting anything. 550s at 55 psi base flow a measly 12% more at higher deadtime due to force countering the solenoid travel. Not even enough to flow at the next higher available size 650cc. Running 550s/650s w/ a 20G and an eprom is about as rediculous as running stock exhaust expecting 400whp. Do you know how sharply a single Walbro 255HP drops off in flow at 55 psi base? 55GPH or 208LPH, rewired. Try doing this w/ a 190 (which otherwise is fine for 400hp at reasonable fuel pressure and proper injectors). I'd rather spend my time tuning than fabbing a multi-pump system. . . If you ran this 550cc setup w/ a EPROM then you were asking for trouble. If you ran this 550cc setup without an EPROM, then your experience is not relavent to the thread..

Yes, and it still worked for me with the 550s and 2X 255lph. I see no reason why 650s, would not work with that turbo on gas. Why should it matter if I had an eprom or not then, it was on an afc hack and a 2g mass? The member in question, is also running 660s. Just becasue I run dsmlink and 750s doesn't mean that I would recomend it for everyone. There are alot of ways to skin a cat and for you to say it won't work is, bullshit.

So yes, give this up. . . 92lzerNA, no one should underbuild fuel delivery, especially when drivability is conserved. If we only build for our goal then there's no room for AFTER. Rhamlinii is a clear example: blowing his engine after adding nitrous. Buy once, buy right. 650s are not enough for these turbos at normal fuel pressure. Give yourself headroom, especially where a flashed EPROM is employed..

I blew my engine because I should of had a seperate fuel system for nitrous which if you read my 14b thread has been taken care of. 100+ from a single fogger wasn't a good idea for a turbo car either, and i'm running a DP system now. FYI, my nitorus system has more then enought fuel for 750+ of nitorus now. All with dash 8an fittings, aeromotive reg and pump. I didn't plan to overbuild it, I have alot of V8 friends so thing run off on me.

Wow, and all this arguement is for naught considering I am not discussing compressors. . .

BTW, what makes you think I havn't read your current setup???And, why is it relevant?

92lzerNA, a t3 stage3 turbine or a td06h turbine flow way more than what 650s can give up at fuel pressures that will not skew deadtime, spray pattern, fuel pump peak flow, etc.

Yeah, and you know this because you've tried this in your car? I guess all the people before you that ran 50 trim and 20g must have been wrong running those injecters because they didn't work? Whatever you say, if you want to recomend 1000s. That's fine, you already know how I feel about them. It's not worth arguing you opinion, nor do I care to.

 

[Jst4Cyl]

Yeah, and you know this because you've tried this in your car? I guess all the people before you that ran 50 trim and 20g must have been wrong running those injecters because they didn't work? Whatever you say, if you want to recomend 1000s. That's fine, you already know how I feel about them. It's not worth arguing you opinion, nor do I care to.

Whatever works, works. I think we can all agree with that. How you get there is where people and their "preferences" come in at.

I personally wouldn't run anything any smaller than 650's on a 20g (Even on an 18g setup) and up. I chose 750's so I have room for growth and changes. I don't want to have to upgrade numerous times for the same setup. Just my $0.02 , I plan on rocking my 50 trim for awhile.

 

[dsm-onster]

Amen!

Yea, even 450s "work" w/ a 20g. . . No one debates this. It's rediculous to buy injectors that cannot flow enough for the full potential of the turbo chosen. Get a faster spooling turbo and enjoy that more-power-under-the-curve you mentioned. Who wants to run a td06h turbine at 10 psi, at 15 psi at 20psi. Who doesn't want room? Who buys a td06h 20g or 50 trim and expects to "get by" w/ fuel. One may reserve the right to their own opinion, but wisdom is what an open mind seeks.

Yes, and it still worked for me with the 550s and 2X 255lph. I see no reason why 650s, would not work with that turbo on gas. Why should it matter if I had an eprom or not then, it was on an afc hack and a 2g mass? The member in question, is also running 660s. Just becasue I run dsmlink and 750s doesn't mean that I would recomend it for everyone. There are alot of ways to skin a cat and for you to say it won't work is, bullshit.

What is bullshit is having to run 55psi base fuel pressure and doubling up on pumps instead of properly sizing your setup. 650s will NOT work at the full potential of either turbo discussed. I have said nothing that any moderator/wiseman/reputable member would disagree with. Calling anything I typed "bullshit" means that you've missed my point.

But, we keep saying the same thing . So the thread will likely get locked. Nevertheless, I DO care about your opinion and the OP's opinion. That is why I am continuing the debate. . . You're bright. You see where I'm coming from.

And yes, I ran 650s w/ a t3 stage 3 turbine. . . I reached 100% idc at 6000 rpms and 25psi.

Let's get back to the basics here. Why are 650s better than 1000cc injectors in this case? The benefit of 1000cc injectors are more available fuel if you decide to go farther. What do 650s offer that 1000s do not?

 

[Jst4Cyl]

Let's get back to the basics here. Why are 650s better than 1000cc injectors in this case? The benefit of 1000cc injectors are more available fuel if you decide to go farther. What do 650s offer that 1000s do not?

A built in boost controller that is very strict

or

The promise of a future rebuild.

 

[rhamlinii]

Amen!

Yea, even 450s "work" w/ a 20g. . . No one debates this. It's rediculous to buy injectors that cannot flow enough for the full potential of the turbo chosen. Get a faster spooling turbo and enjoy that more-power-under-the-curve you mentioned. Who wants to run a td06h turbine at 10 psi, at 15 psi at 20psi. Who doesn't want room? Who buys a td06h 20g or 50 trim and expects to "get by" w/ fuel. One may reserve the right to their own opinion, but wisdom is what an open mind seeks.



What is bullshit is having to run 55psi base fuel pressure and doubling up on pumps instead of properly sizing your setup. 650s will NOT work at the full potential of either turbo discussed. I have said nothing that any moderator/wiseman/reputable member would disagree with. Calling anything I typed "bullshit" means that you've missed my point.

But, we keep saying the same thing . So the thread will likely get locked. Nevertheless, I DO care about your opinion and the OP's opinion. That is why I am continuing the debate. . . You're bright. You see where I'm coming from.

And yes, I ran 650s w/ a t3 stage 3 turbine. . . I reached 100% idc at 6000 rpms and 25psi.

Let's get back to the basics here. Why are 650s better than 1000cc injectors in this case? The benefit of 1000cc injectors are more available fuel if you decide to go farther. What do 650s offer that 1000s do not?

You know you could never ger 450s to flow enought fuel with any bump in fuel presure like I was talking about with 550s. I also know for a fact that on RACE GAS, I still had some injecters left and I was at 27-30 psi on my 20g. Turbo magizine a couple of years back had a galant with 550 injecters on pump gas, but they never tried to get numbers on race gas. I remember they made 370ish on 550's on pump, if I remember correctly. I still see no reason why 650s won't work for what this guy's setup is on RACE GAS, with a goal of only 400 hp? 1000s are more then enough to make 650awhp with just about any external pump, or a bocsh pump? The only thing 650 offer more so then 1000, is better control over your injecters for the range you will be using them in. Any injecter with a rating like the rc 650 @ 43.5 psi should have no problum flowing enought fuel for his setup on race gas with a single walbro with a base pressure of 45 psi. It's not worth arguing or debating as you call it. What i'm saying is the truth, and as I said it's bullshit to dismiss the truth for the point of saying this way is better. You can say how much better it is to overbuild, but I could care less. The truth is, that the 650s will work on race gas. That was the answer to the question that was asked, so just drop it already.

 

[dsm-onster]

You know you could never ger 450s to flow enought fuel with any bump in fuel presure like I was talking about with 550s. I also know for a fact that on RACE GAS, I still had some injecters left and I was at 27-30 psi on my 20g. Turbo magizine a couple of years back had a galant with 550 injecters on pump gas, but they never tried to get numbers on race gas. I remember they made 370ish on 550's on pump, if I remember correctly. I still see no reason why 650s won't work for what this guy's setup is on RACE GAS, with a goal of only 400 hp? 1000s are more then enough to make 650awhp with just about any external pump, or a bocsh pump? The only thing 650 offer more so then 1000, is better control over your injecters for the range you will be using them in. Any injecter with a rating like the rc 650 @ 43.5 psi should have no problum flowing enought fuel for his setup on race gas with a single walbro with a base pressure of 45 psi. It's not worth arguing or debating as you call it. What i'm saying is the truth, and as I said it's bullshit to dismiss the truth for the point of saying this way is better. You can say how much better it is to overbuild, but I could care less. The truth is, that the 650s will work on race gas. That was the answer to the question that was asked, so just drop it already.

450s are OK for about 250whp. Any 20g variant can run at a boost to accommodate such flow. It works. I've done it w/ a MUCH larger 60-1 compressor and a t3 stage 3 turbine. But, there's no tap into the 20g's potential, right? The same applies to 650s and a td06h 20g. It will work, but he might as well go for a quicker spooling td05h 20g or a simple evo3 16g if he's going to limit himself to 650s. . . there's no sense in giving one's set up more lag than neccesary. 650s can only go but so far. period. And that is about as far as your smaller td05h 20g.

Why raise the fuel pressure much over 43.5psi (at which the injectors are designed and are most efficient) when for nearly the SAME PRICE one can aquire plenty more flow at the same efficient spray pattern? Why limit oneself to race gas? The cost in upgrading (selling used 650s and getting bigger) does not merit the several tank fulls of race gas. Again, what is possible is not always what is proper. Why limit your fuel choice for zero to minimal difference in cost and no other benefit?

The truth is 650s limit him to race gas or 400whp and less. That is a shame since a td06h 20g or the "pump gas king" 50-trim can yield 450+whp on pump gas where proper injectors are used. A 450hp daily driver is what makes a 4g63 a 4g63. Everything else on his profile suggests his setup can handle such a level. He has a 500hp capable 6-bolt. Why run less? He hasn't narrowed down to those turbos to enjoy the lag. He can have pump gas power. Let him. 650s are not enough for guys that choose these turbos. . . No one chooses these turbos for just the track. Only FWD guys seam to choose these turbos for the questionable benefits of minor lag.

I truely mean no disrespect. In fact, congratulations on your results w/ such a small turbine (td05h). Excellent example of pushing the envelope in sevaral facets! I'm happy to see you bring your results to the table here. You may 'care less about how much better it is to overbuild', but the vast majority DO care. And running that close to the jagged edge is just not acceptable to them. There's too much at stake. If they want to be safe, they want more fuel; or less turbo to enjoy quicker spool.

 

[92lzerNA]

I figured I would update everyone. I decide to go with the 20g with the external gate, because of the incress in boost control. I also didnt feel like taking out the internal gate and everything on the 50-trim and I had a friend that wanted the 50-trim so I went that way and offset the price of buying the 20g with selling the 50-trim.

But I dont understand how some of you are saying that 650cc is not enough fuel. My buddy that parted out his pte 50-trim car made 380whp on 18psi with these injectors and eprom. He only dynoed at 18psi because he was having issues with holding any more than 18psi on the dyno. He regullary ran around on high 20's on the street and his logs shown no signs or running out of fuel. He also ran a best of 12.3@119mph with no 2nd gear and pump gas. So I think 650cc will be plenty for a daily driven 20g car as I dont plan on making an record breaking track times.

 

[2gGSX]

It's all in the tune. Then again, even at 85% IDC, 43 psi base fuel pressure, and an 11.5:1 tune, a set of 650cc injectors should support 42-43 lbs/min. Couple this with some good timing advance, and you'll get good results.