Welcome to DSMtuners - the largest Mitsubishi Eclipse, Eagle Talon, 4G63t and 420A DSM performance resource on the web



















Login



Go Back   DSMtuners > DSM Forums > DSM Tech > Tuning & Engine Management
Welcome to DSMtuners - the largest Mitsubishi Eclipse, Eagle Talon, 4G63t and 420A DSM performance resource
You are browsing the site as a GUEST. Please login (or register) and gain the ability to post on our site and interact with other DSMers. You also get to browse the site with fewer advertisements. It is FREE to join!

Tuning & Engine Management: 4G63 EPROMS, ECU, MAF, knock, EGT, wideband, datalogging, fuel trims, etc. Read this Forum's Strict Guidelines.

Reply
 
LinkBack   Thread Tools
Old 10-06-2011, 07:56 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #1 (permalink)
DSM Wiseman
 

Calan's Avatar
Registered: Jan 2007
Tech Posts: 5,877
Photos: 11
Classified Ads: 2
Classifieds Rating: 51
Reputation: You can trust this leader of the site
Send a message via AIM to Calan Send a message via Yahoo to Calan

E85 goo - this time with an attitude


This is a bit long-winded, so bare with me...

The car has been running really well, so I decided to push the single Deatschwerks pump a little more by raising the voltage to keep the pressure up... which worked great:

Deatschwerks DW300 High Flow In-Tank Fuel Pump Testing Post #115

After several days and another E85 fill up, I noticed the FT's going up and the car was starting to lean out a bit at WOT. So I took the Golan fuel filter apart, and found this (this is a new 40 micron element that I installed about 2 weeks ago):

Click image for larger version

Name:	filter_dirty.jpg
Views:	167
Size:	55.7 KB
ID:	128570

A few minutes in some clean gas, I ended up with this (notice how dirty the gas was afterwards ):

Click image for larger version

Name:	filter_clean.jpg
Views:	141
Size:	70.4 KB
ID:	128571

I pulled the injectors and cleaned them as well. (They had some buildup, but I've seen much worse). After putting everything back together, FT's were back in line and the car ran good until...

On my way to work yesterday (20 miles), I noticed fuel trims starting to go up again, and this time they were on a mission. As I pulled into the parking lot, AFR's were spiking to 18:1 during open-loop while shifting and during initial acceleration.

At the end of the day, I adjusted global fuel to compensate somewhat and disconnected the boost-a-pump thinking maybe it was the culprit, even though the voltages looked fine. Long story short, it was a freakin' nightmare just to get the car home. The AFR error was rising faster than I could adjust global fuel to compensate, and by the time I got to my house I was coasting it into my driveway after chugging it up the street in low-load bursts at 19:1 AFR.

I figured the fuel pump might have failed due to the constant 15v (which would be ridiculous but possible), so I disconnected the return line and timed the flow into a container. Sure enough, the volume of fuel was much lower than what it should have been flowing, so out came the pump.

What I found was almost unbelievable; the sock, pump, and everything else was coated in the infamous E85 goo... nasty, sticky, tar-like crap. The sock was almost clogged completely, and it was even building up in the hanger hard lines.

Click image for larger version

Name:	pump_dirty.jpg
Views:	144
Size:	71.3 KB
ID:	128572

Click image for larger version

Name:	dirty_lines.jpg
Views:	142
Size:	74.0 KB
ID:	128576

EDIT:

I should also add that just a couple of days prior to the new tank of E85 that started this mess, I completely drained the tank to recalibrate my fuel gauge after reworking my instrument cluster and interior lights. As a matter of routine, I carefully inspected the fuel that I drained out (about 6 gallons of the same E85), and it was crystal clear with no sign of any debris at all. I poured it back in, and then filled up again a couple of days later.

So I tossed the pump in some clean gas, and after a few moments of sloshing it around and pouring gas through it, it looked good as new. The jar of gas on the other hand, was so black that a light wouldn't shine through it.

Click image for larger version

Name:	pump_in_gas.jpg
Views:	134
Size:	104.4 KB
ID:	128573
Click image for larger version

Name:	pump_in_gas_2.jpg
Views:	132
Size:	95.5 KB
ID:	128574
Click image for larger version

Name:	pump_clean.jpg
Views:	126
Size:	75.7 KB
ID:	128575

I cleaned the hanger, put everything back together, and drained the remaining E85 from the tank. I then put a couple gallons of gas in, and just ran the pump for a while to let the fuel circulate through the system and clean out any remaining buildup.

After filling up with gas and driving around a while, the car seemed much better, but then it started leaning out bad at idle again. Thinking the pump may have been permanently damaged, I swapped to a Walbro 255 I had laying around...but I still had the same issue. The car seemed to run fine for a while, but after about 20 minutes it started leaning out like crazy again at idle. I pulled the fuel rail and injectors, but they were now clean after running a couple of gallons of pure gas through the system.

This morning I drove the car to work again, and it seems fine except for a slight stumble as it goes lean on initial throttle input. I'm hoping any remaining glitches are due to residual crap in the system that will work itself out. It's also possible that I have some minor ignition issues now, although the plugs didn't look all that bad. (I'm hoping I didn't stress the ignition or anything else during the last few miles of trying to get the thing home).

This is by far the worst case of an E85 goo attack I've ever seen or even heard of. This happened over the course of one or two tanks of E85, from the same station. I was also adding Stabil (marine or ethanol variant) to each tank, which may have actually added to the problem instead of preventing it. Once I get the thing cleaned out and back to normal, I'm going to do some testing to figure out what will actually prevent this, if possible.

What I do know about the goo so far, is that gasoline dissolves it almost instantly but oddly enough acetone barely has any effect on it. Generic fuel injector cleaner seems to have no effect on it, and neither did the Stabil. But, Sea Foam dissolves it almost as fast as gasoline... so I'll probably add some Sea Foam to the next tank of E85 and see what happens.



____________________________
Craig - Custom fab and filtered catch cans

Last edited by Calan; 10-06-2011 at 11:45 PM.
View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2011, 08:13 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #2 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

GRAVEDIGGER's Avatar
Registered: Nov 2007
Tech Posts: 2,433
Photos: 18
Classifieds Rating: 1
Reputation: GRAVEDIGGER is an experienced, knowledgeable member worth listening toGRAVEDIGGER is an experienced, knowledgeable member worth listening toGRAVEDIGGER is an experienced, knowledgeable member worth listening toGRAVEDIGGER is an experienced, knowledgeable member worth listening toGRAVEDIGGER is an experienced, knowledgeable member worth listening to
Wow that IS some serious goo. I can't believe how black it made the gas in the jar when you were cleaning the filter and the pump. Did you just start adding the Stabil on the last two tanks, or have you added it in the past? I would definitely run some more Sea Foam through it for a while though.


____________________________
-Matt Graves-
soon to be HX40 powered....
View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2011, 08:43 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #3 (permalink)
DSM Wiseman
 

Calan's Avatar
Registered: Jan 2007
Tech Posts: 5,877
Photos: 11
Classified Ads: 2
Classifieds Rating: 51
Reputation: You can trust this leader of the site
Send a message via AIM to Calan Send a message via Yahoo to Calan
Quote:
Originally Posted by GRAVEDIGGER View Post
Did you just start adding the Stabil on the last two tanks, or have you added it in the past?
I've been running it for a while now, but honestly didn't notice a whole lot of difference. The injectors have seemed to be a little cleaner when I've checked them, but they still get some build up.

The last two tanks I used the blue "Marine" variant of Stabil, whereas before I was using the new orange ethanol blend. But I have used the blue stuff in the past and definitely didn't see this crap.

I don't know if it was a bad batch of E85 or what. That is one of the only E85 stations around here though, so it should be easy enough to find out if anyone else is seeing this.


____________________________
Craig - Custom fab and filtered catch cans
View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2011, 08:56 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #4 (permalink)
Moderator
 

99gst_racer's Avatar
Registered: Apr 2003
Tech Posts: 8,630
Photos: 68
Classified Ads: 3
Classifieds Rating: 131
Reputation: You can trust this leader of the site
One of my local friends runs E85 in her 2G and her 10-micron Aeromotive fuel filter clogs almost completely shut every 6 months or so. You can barely even blow air through it. Nasty stuff.

PS - The first pic looks like carbon fiber.


____________________________
Paul

The Original 1G Chromoly Crossmember
Visit 99gst_racer's homepage!  View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2011, 08:59 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #5 (permalink)
DSM Wiseman
 

Calan's Avatar
Registered: Jan 2007
Tech Posts: 5,877
Photos: 11
Classified Ads: 2
Classifieds Rating: 51
Reputation: You can trust this leader of the site
Send a message via AIM to Calan Send a message via Yahoo to Calan
Quote:
Originally Posted by 99gst_racer View Post
PS - The first pic looks like carbon fiber.
Good call!


____________________________
Craig - Custom fab and filtered catch cans
View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2011, 09:11 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #6 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

rEclipserGST's Avatar
Registered: Nov 2007
Tech Posts: 1,289
Photos: 46
Classified Ads: 1
Classifieds Rating: 38
Reputation: rEclipserGST is an unknown
Send a message via AIM to rEclipserGST Send a message via Yahoo to rEclipserGST
Quote:
Originally Posted by 99gst_racer View Post
One of my local friends runs E85 in her 2G and her 10-micron Aeromotive fuel filter clogs almost completely shut every 6 months or so. You can barely even blow air through it. Nasty stuff.

PS - The first pic looks like carbon fiber.
I am so noob, I thought that was a carbon fiber filter of some sort.

I shall be checking my 190 fuel pump sock as well. Just for kicks.
Visit rEclipserGST's homepage!  View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2011, 09:13 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #7 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

phunny's Avatar
Registered: Feb 2005
Tech Posts: 1,643
Photos: 13
Classifieds Rating: 4
Reputation: phunny is pretty helpful and trustworthy
So how are you planning to combat this


____________________________
Charlie
View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2011, 09:16 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #8 (permalink)
DSM Wiseman
 

LiquidX's Avatar
Registered: Sep 2008
Tech Posts: 6,590
Classified Ads: 1
Classifieds Rating: 29
Reputation: You can trust this leader of the site
Send a message via AIM to LiquidX
I would start considering dropping the tank and cleaning it out real well.


____________________________
Ƨɔɵƾƾ

97 ṰŠlΩИ ṰƧɨ Λ₩ƿ

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2011, 09:21 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #9 (permalink)
DSM Wiseman
 

Calan's Avatar
Registered: Jan 2007
Tech Posts: 5,877
Photos: 11
Classified Ads: 2
Classifieds Rating: 51
Reputation: You can trust this leader of the site
Send a message via AIM to Calan Send a message via Yahoo to Calan
Quote:
Originally Posted by 99gst_racer View Post
One of my local friends runs E85 in her 2G and her 10-micron Aeromotive fuel filter clogs almost completely shut every 6 months or so.
That ^ was a 40 micron element, and it took less than 6 hours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiQUiDx View Post
I would start considering dropping the tank and cleaning it out real well.
The tank was actually spotless when I pulled the pump and inspected it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phunny View Post
So how are you planning to combat this
At this point... maybe by buying a Prius.


____________________________
Craig - Custom fab and filtered catch cans
View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2011, 09:28 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #10 (permalink)
DSM Wiseman
 

LiquidX's Avatar
Registered: Sep 2008
Tech Posts: 6,590
Classified Ads: 1
Classifieds Rating: 29
Reputation: You can trust this leader of the site
Send a message via AIM to LiquidX
Craig, it's still a thought, you cleaned everything else out and removed goo. There could be enough hanging on the walls or in an area you cannot see that is causing issues.

Also, have you tried a different fuel source to see if it's a bad batch from the one provider?


____________________________
Ƨɔɵƾƾ

97 ṰŠlΩИ ṰƧɨ Λ₩ƿ

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2011, 09:36 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #11 (permalink)
DSM Wiseman
 

Calan's Avatar
Registered: Jan 2007
Tech Posts: 5,877
Photos: 11
Classified Ads: 2
Classifieds Rating: 51
Reputation: You can trust this leader of the site
Send a message via AIM to Calan Send a message via Yahoo to Calan
Not too many sources around here to get E85 from.

I'm running a full tank of pure 91, so hopefully that will dissolve any remaining crap. Should be good to go after a couple of tanks of gas.


____________________________
Craig - Custom fab and filtered catch cans

Last edited by Calan; 10-06-2011 at 11:03 AM.
View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2011, 09:39 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #12 (permalink)
Moderator
 

99gst_racer's Avatar
Registered: Apr 2003
Tech Posts: 8,630
Photos: 68
Classified Ads: 3
Classifieds Rating: 131
Reputation: You can trust this leader of the site
Quote:
Originally Posted by calan View Post
That ^ was a 40 micron element, and it took less than 6 hours.
Very weird. I know 10 micron is too fine for E85, but 40 micron is the recommended element for it, so I'm very surprised that it clogged at all - let alone in that amount of time.

Time to switch back to tried and true gasoline?


____________________________
Paul

The Original 1G Chromoly Crossmember
Visit 99gst_racer's homepage!  View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2011, 09:53 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #13 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

JayRolla's Avatar
Registered: Feb 2006
Tech Posts: 5,075
Photos: 5
Classifieds Rating: 7
Reputation: JayRolla is extremely helpful and trustworthyJayRolla is extremely helpful and trustworthyJayRolla is extremely helpful and trustworthy
Thats is a lot of goo. I ran e85 for over 2 years and never had that much goo. Not to mention I ran it on a stock fuel filter.


____________________________
Jason~ Parting out my DSM!
View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2011, 09:55 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #14 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

phunny's Avatar
Registered: Feb 2005
Tech Posts: 1,643
Photos: 13
Classifieds Rating: 4
Reputation: phunny is pretty helpful and trustworthy
Calan, how much do you drive the car?


____________________________
Charlie
View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2011, 10:12 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #15 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

blackrosenova40's Avatar
Registered: Jan 2006
Tech Posts: 395
Photos: 3
Classifieds Rating: 2
Reputation: blackrosenova40 is more helpful than not
Send a message via AIM to blackrosenova40 Send a message via Yahoo to blackrosenova40
I think the goo is actually the ethanol breaking apart any rubber hose in the system. They do make specific fuel line for ethanol that is lined with teflon.
View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2011, 10:45 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #16 (permalink)
DSM Wiseman
 

Calan's Avatar
Registered: Jan 2007
Tech Posts: 5,877
Photos: 11
Classified Ads: 2
Classifieds Rating: 51
Reputation: You can trust this leader of the site
Send a message via AIM to Calan Send a message via Yahoo to Calan
Quote:
Originally Posted by phunny View Post
Calan, how much do you drive the car?
Just about every day that's nice out, 30-40 miles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackrosenova40 View Post
I think the goo is actually the ethanol breaking apart any rubber hose in the system. They do make specific fuel line for ethanol that is lined with teflon.
Chemical analysis done by a few chemists over the last couple of years points away from that idea. It happens even on brand new systems designed specifically for ethanol. Check out the thread over on evom about it.


____________________________
Craig - Custom fab and filtered catch cans
View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2011, 11:36 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #17 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

compression's Avatar
Registered: Dec 2004
Tech Posts: 1,178
Photos: 12
Classifieds Rating: 3
Reputation: compression is extremely helpful and trustworthycompression is extremely helpful and trustworthy
Send a message via AIM to compression
May be completely wrong, but could you run gasoline every third tank or every other tank ? Same theory as dipping your filter in gas. Like I said I'm not familiar with this enough to be sure. [ obviusly you would need different maps ]


____________________________
-Brian, Check out my build thread!
View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2011, 11:48 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #18 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

blackrosenova40's Avatar
Registered: Jan 2006
Tech Posts: 395
Photos: 3
Classifieds Rating: 2
Reputation: blackrosenova40 is more helpful than not
Send a message via AIM to blackrosenova40 Send a message via Yahoo to blackrosenova40
I guess then what I would like to know is, do flex fuel vehicles have this problem!


Quote:
Originally Posted by calan View Post
Just about every day that's nice out, 30-40 miles.



Chemical analysis done by a few chemists over the last couple of years points away from that idea. It happens even on brand new systems designed specifically for ethanol. Check out the thread over on evom about it.
View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2011, 11:49 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #19 (permalink)
DSM Wiseman
 

Calan's Avatar
Registered: Jan 2007
Tech Posts: 5,877
Photos: 11
Classified Ads: 2
Classifieds Rating: 51
Reputation: You can trust this leader of the site
Send a message via AIM to Calan Send a message via Yahoo to Calan
Quote:
Originally Posted by compression View Post
May be completely wrong, but could you run gasoline every third tank or every other tank ?
That's been the recommended "fix" for the goo problem for a couple of years now... but it doesn't do much good when this crap comes out of solution and does that ^ within even a single tank or two of E85.

I have a hunch that using a bit of Sea Foam as an additive will prevent it, or at least cut down on it substantially...but we'll see. Nothing else I've tried has done much to prevent the goo, but this is WAY worse than anything I've seen before.

Up until now, I've only noticed it on the injector pintles, and one time I had some crud in the filter...but it wasn't goo so much as just two years of not cleaning the filter element. And that was originally a 10 micron SS element instead of the 40 micron element that gummed up seemingly overnight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackrosenova40 View Post
I guess then what I would like to know is, do flex fuel vehicles have this problem!
That's a good question, and I don't think anyone really knows yet. I honestly don't think people driving around in 150hp minivans and SUVs pay that much attention to it and would probably never notice it under normal driving conditions for those vehicles.

To paraphrase the general consensus that has been developed over the last couple of years (as far as I know anyway)...

The goo appears to be a regional phenomenon and is apparently caused by an E85 additive that comes out of solution under certain conditions (which is why pure gasoline will dissolve it almost instantly). In the lab it was actually a clear color, and nobody really knows why it turns black in our cars; other than maybe it is absorbing carbon or other contaminants as it crashes out. The chemical analysis of the two match almost perfectly though, and the chemical footprint doesn't look anything like any of the rubber or other compounds found in fuel systems.

FWIW, about the only place I have anything remotely suspicious in my fuel system (if it was actually caused by dissolving rubber), would be a couple of very short pieces of new EFI hose that joins the hard lines to the tank, the factory filler hose, and a couple of fuel pump sleeves that I'm using between the pump and hanger as a spacer; one of which shipped with a pump rated for ethanol use. And I really doubt if any of that could cause a problem. Everything in front of the firewall is SS braided hose rated for fuel.


____________________________
Craig - Custom fab and filtered catch cans

Last edited by Calan; 10-06-2011 at 03:14 PM.
View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2011, 01:13 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #20 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

snooopy365's Avatar
Registered: Jan 2003
Tech Posts: 169
Classifieds Rating: 0
Reputation: snooopy365 is more helpful than not
Send a message via ICQ to snooopy365
I never had this goo before the injectors??
I'm using E85 in my daily driver now since 4 years.
My injectors got goo in it (engine side) but also the fuelrail and filter are goo free.

there is something wrong with the E85 you got!

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

 

» Recent DSM Photo
» Current Poll
How many times have you been to the Shootout?
1 - 39.86%
167 Votes
2-5 - 41.77%
175 Votes
6-10 - 10.50%
44 Votes
11-15 - 3.10%
13 Votes
16-20 - 4.77%
20 Votes
Total Votes: 419
You may not vote on this poll.
» Online Users: 782
205 members and 577 guests
Most users ever online was 1,704, 03-17-2008 at 09:11 PM.
DSMtuners Main Sections
DSM Forums
DSM Regional Forums
DSM Builds/Journals
DSM Articles
DSM Tech Guides
DSM Upgrade Paths
DSM Parts Reviews
DSM Vendor Reviews

DSM Classifieds
DSM Parts Guides
DSM Photos
DSM Videos
DSM Timeslips
DSM Dyno Sheets
Shirts & Apparel
DSMtuners Decals

Advertising Info
Our Sponsors
Site Rules
Terms of Service
Privacy Policy
Site FAQ
About Us
Contact Us

© 2014 DSMtuners.com - All Rights Reserved

DSMtuners is not affiliated with Diamond Star Motors. The Mitsubishi Eclipse, Eagle Talon, Plymouth Laser, Mitsubishi Galant VR-4, and associated logos are trademarks of Diamond Star Motors, Mitsubishi Motors, and Chrysler Corporation. No, we do not hand out car sponsorships.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:01 PM.


Vendor Tools vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.

Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0