How much knock is too much knock?

91talon27 · 05-13-2008, 12:01 PM

Here is my 1st log I just made. Is 7 counts of knock to much? Do you see anything I can do make the log better or is this a good log? I am new to tuning with a logger I'm just trying to learn without destroying anything.

RPM knock INJP O2 Timing

2531 0 4.61ms .72v 26
2563 0 4.35ms .59v 28
2625 0 4.35ms .06v 29
2688 0 4.35ms .04v 29
2750 0 4.61ms .02v 30
2875 0 4.86ms .04v 29
3031 0 5.12ms .04v 28
3188 0 5.63ms .04v 27
3344 0 6.40ms .06v 27
3500 0 7.94ms .06v 22
3656 0 8.96ms .74v 16
3844 0 9.73ms .84v 15
4031 0 11.01ms .84v 15
4250 1 12.54ms .84v 13
4563 1 14.08ms .84v 9
4844 7 15.36ms .84v 9
5031 7 16.64ms .84v 8
5281 6 17.41ms .84v 9
5594 5 17.41ms .86v 11
5625 5 17.41ms .86v 11
5875 5 17.15ms .86v 12
5938 4 16.90ms .86v 12
6094 4 16.64ms .86v 12
6281 3 16.38ms .86v 14
6406 3 15.87ms .86v 14
6469 2 15.62ms .88v 15
6594 2 15.10ms .88v 15
6719 1 14.85ms .88v 16
6906 1 14.59ms .88v 16
6938 1 14.34ms .88v 17
7063 0 13.82ms .88v 18

spyderturbo007 · 05-13-2008, 12:04 PM

You'll get different views on this sort of question, but I strongly believe that any knock is bad. Is your ECU chipped for the 780cc injectors? Also, can you post up your Ne Points and corresponding Hi Throttle correction factors from the SAFC-II. Are you running 25psi as stated in your profile?

91talon27 · 05-13-2008, 12:20 PM

Yes I'm running 25psi and yes I have a Keydriver chip set for the 780cc injectors.

Ne Points Correction ( High throttle )

1000 -15%
1400 +5%
2000 -4%
2400 -26%
3000 -26%
3400 -9%
4000 -13%
4400 -8%
5000 +15%
6000 +25%
7000 +15%
8000 +15% I don't turn the motor this high so I set it to the 7000 rpm point.

spyderturbo007 · 05-13-2008, 12:32 PM

Are you running a 2g MAS that isn't compensated for in the chip settings? Your correction factors are really lean. What's the target AFR set for in the chip?

Oh, and not to knit pick or anything, but it's keydiver, not keydriver.

91talon27 · 05-13-2008, 12:45 PM

The 2g mas is compensated for and the target AFR is 11:1. Sorry about the name confusion. The paperwork that came with the chip has the settings as follows.

7800/6000 Selectable Rev Limit
4500/4750/5000/5250/5500 stutterbox
Resets to 4500 on bootup
No fuelcut
Octane reset
2x Karman
Knocksum Gauge
Enhansed closed-loop maps
780cc injectors/288uS deadtime
Stock 2g mas
750 rpm idle
30% expanded maps
No airflow cap
37psi fpr
11:1 wot afr
93 octane with 17* Timing advance on top map

spyderturbo007 · 05-13-2008, 01:45 PM

Looking at the chip settings shows that everything that would influence fuel delivery has been compensated for, such as the 2g MAS, larger injectors and hitting an 11:1 AFR. So, basically, that's telling you that if you set the SAFC to zero across the Hi Throttle map, and you don't have any boost leaks, you should hit an AFR of 11:1.

Based on your correction factors, you're going from a very, very lean AFR at the 2400 - 4500rpm area to really rich above 4500.

Set the SAFC to zero across the entire Hi Throttle map and make another pull. Swap out IPW for IDC if you can, just so we don't have to do the math. Then post up the log.

91talon27 · 05-13-2008, 03:15 PM

Here is the new log.

RPM Knock O2 Timing InjDuty

1906 0 .84V 27 10
2344 0 .84V 22 14
2344 0 .84V 22 13
2219 0 .86V 23 13
2375 0 .86V 23 14
2563 0 .88V 22 16
2688 0 .86V 21 17
2813 0 .86V 21 18
2906 0 .88V 20 20
3031 0 .88V 19 19
3125 0 .88V 17 22
3250 0 .88V 16 24
3375 0 .88V 15 28
3500 0 .88V 14 33
3656 0 .88V 13 36
3781 0 .88V 13 40
3969 0 .88V 11 44
4125 0 .88V 10 52
4313 0 .88V 9 59
4594 0 .88V 10 68
4844 0 .86V 10 76
5063 0 .86V 11 82
5281 1 .86V 12 83
5469 1 .86V 12 86
5688 5 .86V 12 88
5938 5 .86V 12 88
6063 4 .86V 12 90
6125 11 .86V 11 91
6344 11 .86V 11 90
6531 10 .86V 12 93
6563 10 .86V 12 94
6719 14 .86V 13 93
6844 13 .86V 12 91

spyderturbo007 · 05-13-2008, 03:43 PM

Was that a log with the Hi table zeroed out? If so, there is something fishy going on here.

Have you verified your base timing, along with a leak test and checking your fuel pressure?

91talon27 · 05-13-2008, 03:58 PM

Verified the Base timing and done a boost leak test yesterday all was good. Fuel pressure was at 30 with no Vacuum. I adjusted it to 38psi. Could that cause the problem? Yes that was with my High table zeroed out.

DSMunknown · 05-13-2008, 05:17 PM

I support Nate. No knock is good knock.

spyderturbo007 · 05-14-2008, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 91talon27

I adjusted it to 38psi. Could that cause the problem?

That's very possible, since you won't be flowing as much fuel at 30psi as you do at 38psi. Go ahead and make another pull with the Hi Throttle map zeroed out. Also, what do you have your TPS trigger points set at and what does your TPS read at WOT. Make sure you check the TPS value on the logger, not on the SAFC, since the SAFC isn't correct.

Black_Bullet · 05-14-2008, 08:54 AM

Were you full throttle from the begining of those logs?
Your timing values were a lot different between the two?
That 2nd log your timing looked really weak, not to mention the 11 counts of knock I saw.
Like they said above, no knock is good knock, but I personally dont mind it showing a little knock
because not all knock could be real knock; and if its not pulling timing then Im comfortable with anything under 6 counts on my engine. If I tune for zero knock at all times you can tell its a bit slower and not as much to the edge. FWIW.

What turbo is this on?

You really should look into learning how to burn your own chips at home.
I had a keydiver before, and then your going to always want to adjust something in it and you dont
want to have to wait or pay for a reburn all the time.

I use evilscribe, and a williem eprom burner, and AT29C256 rewriteable chips that you just order.
I dont have any links at the momment because Im
in a rush, but if your interested in it you can pm or something.

evil_eagle · 05-14-2008, 12:48 PM

I wouldn't be concerned about that knock at all! 10-13 counts is nothing. You guys need to remember, the factory knock sensors are very sensitive. Back in the day when I was tuning on the AFC days with a pocket logger I was tuning to 20-24 counts of knock. Plugs showed absolutely no signs of detonation. If you try to tune to absolute 0 knock then the car is going to feel really doggy and flat. Every car is going to get noisier via the knock sensor with the more power you make.

Hell, in my drag talon I don't even have a knock sensor anymore. Knock sensors are a double edged sword, and should be taken as a "reference".
On pump gas and daily driven I wouldn't tune anymore then 15 counts just to be on the safe side of things. But checking plugs for detonation is always the best way to really know what is going on with your motor.

Black_Bullet · 05-14-2008, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by evil_eagle

I wouldn't be concerned about that knock at all! 10-13 counts is nothing. You guys need to remember, the factory knock sensors are very sensitive. Back in the day when I was tuning on the AFC days with a pocket logger I was tuning to 20-24 counts of knock. Plugs showed absolutely no signs of detonation. If you try to tune to absolute 0 knock then the car is going to feel really doggy and flat. Every car is going to get noisier via the knock sensor with the more power you make.

Hell, in my drag talon I don't even have a knock sensor anymore. Knock sensors are a double edged sword, and should be taken as a "reference".
On pump gas and daily driven I wouldn't tune anymore then 15 counts just to be on the safe side of things. But checking plugs for detonation is always the best way to really know what is going on with your motor.

Because it came from you, that post probably will give a lot of people a bigger pair of nuts when they are tuning lol ...

Though I do agree, I just figure an old tired motor thats in a DD street car could use a little bit of conservation when its in the hands of a broke college student like myself... lol

Btw; I have a knock buzzer set in w/ my chip for 10 counts of knock. So if I hit 10 counts + it buzzes real loud... If I dont hear it when im driving; I dont worry about nothing.

For those trying to eck more out of their setup, the mitsu knock sensor truely will give you a hard time
always pulling timing when its not even needed. OP, your timing looks pretty weak though in that 2nd log;
with timing that low you shouldnt be registering any knock counts unless your too lean, too much psi, or have a bad case of phantom.

91talon27 · 05-14-2008, 03:04 PM

Yes I was at 100% throttle on the second pull. I verified that with the logger. The turbo I'm running is a FPEVO316G. I am not overly concerned with being able to burn my own chips as I'm getting DSMLINK in early to mid July. I'm not running a stock tired old motor. I'm running Eagle Rods, and Ross Pistons. My engine was completely redone less than 5k miles ago. I'll make another pull when it stops raining. It may be tomorrow morning on the way home from work.

Black_Bullet · 05-14-2008, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 91talon27

Yes I was at 100% throttle on the second pull. I verified that with the logger. The turbo I'm running is a FPEVO316G. I am not overly concerned with being able to burn my own chips as I'm getting DSMLINK in early to mid July. I'm not running a stock tired old motor. I'm running Eagle Rods, and Ross Pistons. My engine was completely redone less than 5k miles ago. I'll make another pull when it stops raining. It may be tomorrow morning on the way home from work.

Oh ok cool.
Just remember that forged pistons are more prone to piston slap which can trigger more fake knock.
I dont know much though about that as Ive never had forged internals lol.

Your knock counts dont look threatening as mentioned earlier, but your still getting crappy timing advance.
What is your compression and AFR, that could reveal a lot.

Just try to post all the information from the begining.

91talon27 · 05-15-2008, 06:25 PM

I figured it out. After adjusting the AFPR to 38psi and adding 5% from 5000 to 7000 I have no knock. I am going to do a little more fine tuning on everything but that will work for know as I won't be tearing anything up. Thanks for all the help I appreciate it.