help with knock (log inside)

[Ben]

timing throttle mas rpm knock injector

39° 25.9% 119.5Hz 3563 0 2.82ms
37° 55.3% 195.0Hz 3594 0 4.61ms
30° 100.0% 226.4Hz 3594 0 4.61ms
29° 100.0% 245.3Hz 3656 0 5.12ms
28° 100.0% 276.8Hz 3688 0 5.63ms
26° 100.0% 308.2Hz 3750 0 6.40ms
24° 100.0% 346.0Hz 3813 0 7.42ms
20° 100.0% 396.3Hz 3875 0 8.96ms
18° 100.0% 459.2Hz 3969 0 9.98ms
16° 100.0% 509.5Hz 4031 0 10.50ms
15° 100.0% 540.9Hz 4156 0 10.50ms
15° 100.0% 547.2Hz 4219 0 10.50ms
16° 100.0% 578.7Hz 4375 0 10.75ms
15° 100.0% 585.0Hz 4406 0 10.75ms
16° 100.0% 610.1Hz 4531 0 10.75ms
16° 100.0% 622.7Hz 4625 0 10.75ms
16° 100.0% 635.3Hz 4750 0 10.75ms
17° 100.0% 647.9Hz 4813 0 10.75ms
17° 100.0% 660.5Hz 4938 0 10.75ms
17° 100.0% 666.7Hz 5000 0 10.75ms
17° 100.0% 679.3Hz 5063 0 10.75ms
18° 100.0% 691.9Hz 5156 0 10.50ms
18° 100.0% 704.5Hz 5281 0 10.75ms
18° 100.0% 717.1Hz 5375 0 10.75ms
19° 100.0% 729.6Hz 5438 0 10.75ms
19° 100.0% 742.2Hz 5531 7 10.75ms
16° 100.0% 754.8Hz 5594 6 10.75ms
17° 100.0% 761.1Hz 5719 6 10.50ms
18° 100.0% 773.7Hz 5750 5 10.50ms
18° 100.0% 773.7Hz 5844 5 10.50ms
18° 100.0% 780.0Hz 5906 5 10.50ms
18° 100.0% 780.0Hz 5938 4 10.50ms
18° 100.0% 786.3Hz 6000 4 10.24ms
20° 100.0% 792.5Hz 6063 3 10.24ms
20° 100.0% 792.5Hz 6094 3 10.24ms
20° 100.0% 792.5Hz 6125 3 10.24ms
20° 100.0% 798.8Hz 6219 2 10.24ms
21° 100.0% 798.8Hz 6313 2 9.98ms
21° 100.0% 805.1Hz 6344 1 9.98ms
22° 100.0% 811.4Hz 6438 1 9.98ms
22° 100.0% 811.4Hz 6469 0 9.98ms
23° 100.0% 817.7Hz 6531 0 9.98ms
23° 100.0% 817.7Hz 6531 0 9.98ms
23° 100.0% 817.7Hz 6625 5 9.98ms
21° 100.0% 824.0Hz 6656 5 9.98ms
21° 100.0% 824.0Hz 6719 10 9.98ms
19° 100.0% 830.3Hz 6750 10 3.07ms
34° 11.0% 182.4Hz 6656 0 2.30ms

The calculated mmcd injector duty cycle never saw over 55%.

Ok. This is a 3rd gear pull. Let me get all the details.
keydiver stage 3 with 10.7:1 openlopp afr. %31 maps for 91 oct and milled head with 17 deg adavnce on top map. chip is made for everything I list next. 2g mas, stock 37 psi FPR, 750cc injectors(288uS deattime). raise fuelcut, no airlfow cap. Has 2g timing maps.
I had a tiny bit of 90 oct in the car, and just put 92 in ther for these logs.
evo 3 manifold, slightly ported 14b at 14 ps, tubular o2 housing, full 3 in exhaust, evo IX fuel pump(not rewired yet)
base timing set to just under 5 deg. brand new Mitsu knock sensor torqured correctly, brand new Mitsi O2 sensor also.
STOC IC and piping. bov is NOT vented.
I boost leak tested once very quickly, and found nothing major. I didn't have a regulator for the air hose, just I just barely pushed the trigger, got to 30-35 psi for a sec and heard nothing. I need to do it again with a regualtor and take more time.


Is this normall for only running 14 psi?? How in the world do I turn the boost up any more?? If this is normall, then there's no need for me to have anything bigger than a 14b. I have a larger turbo waiting to go on, but there's no point with this much knok in 3rd gear at 14 psi.

Any input??

Ben


EDIT: fresh set of bpr7es plugs gapped to .28-.30

 

[GVR4592]

It was probably the 90 octane fuel. I would wait until you're sure all of that fuel is out of the tank and try again.

 

[Ben]

That's what I'm going to do today. I havn't even drivin 5 miles since i put the 92 in. Lubbock doesn't have 93. We used to have 93 oct at ONE Shell station.
I heard from 2 different LS1 guys that were running that shell 93 that when they got their car tuned at the local LS1 shop, they couldn't even finish the dyno tune on that gas it was knocking so bad. They had to pour in a gallon of race gas just to finish the tune.
I don't know if this is true or not, just what I heard.

 

[Ben]

timing throttle mas air RPM knock injector

37° 35.3% 151.0Hz 3438 0 3.58ms
33° 63.5% 201.3Hz 3438 0 4.35ms
31° 97.6% 213.9Hz 3469 0 4.61ms
29° 100.0% 239.0Hz 3531 0 5.12ms
28° 100.0% 264.2Hz 3594 0 5.38ms
27° 100.0% 283.1Hz 3625 0 5.89ms
25° 100.0% 320.8Hz 3688 0 6.91ms
22° 100.0% 358.5Hz 3719 0 7.94ms
19° 100.0% 415.1Hz 3813 0 9.22ms
16° 100.0% 471.8Hz 3906 0 9.98ms
15° 100.0% 515.8Hz 4000 0 10.24ms
15° 100.0% 528.4Hz 4094 0 10.24ms
15° 100.0% 547.2Hz 4188 0 10.50ms
15° 100.0% 566.1Hz 4281 0 10.50ms
16° 100.0% 578.7Hz 4375 0 10.50ms
16° 100.0% 603.8Hz 4500 0 10.50ms
16° 100.0% 622.7Hz 4594 0 10.75ms
16° 100.0% 635.3Hz 4688 0 10.50ms
16° 100.0% 647.9Hz 4750 0 10.50ms
17° 100.0% 654.2Hz 4875 0 10.50ms
17° 100.0% 666.7Hz 5000 0 10.50ms
17° 100.0% 685.6Hz 5031 0 10.50ms
17° 100.0% 698.2Hz 5125 0 10.50ms
17° 100.0% 704.5Hz 5250 0 10.50ms
18° 100.0% 723.4Hz 5281 0 10.50ms
18° 100.0% 729.6Hz 5375 0 10.50ms
19° 100.0% 742.2Hz 5500 0 10.50ms
19° 100.0% 754.8Hz 5563 0 10.50ms
19° 100.0% 761.1Hz 5688 0 10.50ms
19° 100.0% 773.7Hz 5781 0 10.24ms
20° 100.0% 780.0Hz 5813 0 10.50ms
20° 100.0% 786.3Hz 5906 0 10.24ms
21° 100.0% 786.3Hz 5938 0 10.24ms
21° 100.0% 792.5Hz 6031 0 10.24ms
21° 100.0% 805.1Hz 6094 0 10.24ms
21° 100.0% 798.8Hz 6156 0 10.24ms
21° 100.0% 805.1Hz 6219 0 9.98ms
22° 100.0% 811.4Hz 6281 0 9.98ms
23° 100.0% 811.4Hz 6313 0 9.98ms
23° 100.0% 817.7Hz 6344 0 9.98ms
23° 100.0% 817.7Hz 6438 0 9.98ms
23° 100.0% 824.0Hz 6500 0 9.73ms
23° 100.0% 824.0Hz 6531 0 9.73ms
23° 100.0% 824.0Hz 6625 0 9.73ms
24° 100.0% 817.7Hz 6656 0 9.73ms
24° 100.0% 824.0Hz 6688 0 9.47ms
25° 100.0% 824.0Hz 6781 0 9.47ms
25° 100.0% 824.0Hz 6844 0 9.47ms
25° 100.0% 824.0Hz 6844 0 9.47ms
25° 73.3% 824.0Hz 6875 0 2.05ms
37° 11.0% 163.5Hz 6938 0 0.00ms

This is 3rd gear today. 14-15 psi. It looks like that 90 oct is gone.

Now here's 4th

33° 71.8% 195.0Hz 3625 0 4.10ms
32° 100.0% 213.9Hz 3656 0 4.35ms
30° 100.0% 232.7Hz 3656 0 4.86ms
28° 100.0% 257.9Hz 3688 0 5.38ms
27° 100.0% 289.3Hz 3719 0 6.14ms
25° 100.0% 327.1Hz 3750 0 7.17ms
21° 100.0% 377.4Hz 3781 0 8.19ms
18° 100.0% 421.4Hz 3813 0 9.47ms
15° 100.0% 471.8Hz 3875 0 9.98ms
15° 100.0% 490.6Hz 3906 0 10.24ms
15° 100.0% 503.2Hz 3969 0 10.24ms
15° 100.0% 509.5Hz 4031 0 10.24ms
15° 100.0% 522.1Hz 4063 0 10.24ms
15° 100.0% 528.4Hz 4125 0 10.24ms
15° 100.0% 534.7Hz 4156 0 10.24ms
15° 100.0% 547.2Hz 4219 0 10.50ms
16° 100.0% 553.5Hz 4281 0 10.50ms
16° 100.0% 559.8Hz 4344 0 10.50ms
16° 100.0% 566.1Hz 4375 0 10.50ms
16° 100.0% 572.4Hz 4438 0 10.50ms
16° 100.0% 591.3Hz 4469 0 10.50ms
16° 100.0% 597.6Hz 4500 0 10.50ms
16° 100.0% 603.8Hz 4594 0 10.75ms
16° 100.0% 610.1Hz 4625 0 10.75ms
16° 100.0% 616.4Hz 4688 0 10.75ms
16° 100.0% 622.7Hz 4719 0 10.75ms
16° 100.0% 635.3Hz 4781 0 10.50ms
17° 100.0% 635.3Hz 4813 0 10.50ms
17° 100.0% 635.3Hz 4875 0 10.50ms
18° 100.0% 647.9Hz 4875 0 10.50ms
17° 100.0% 654.2Hz 4938 0 10.50ms
17° 100.0% 654.2Hz 4969 0 10.50ms
17° 100.0% 660.5Hz 5063 1 10.50ms
16° 100.0% 666.7Hz 5063 0 10.50ms
17° 100.0% 679.3Hz 5094 0 10.50ms
18° 100.0% 679.3Hz 5188 0 10.50ms
18° 100.0% 685.6Hz 5219 0 10.50ms
18° 100.0% 691.9Hz 5250 0 10.50ms
18° 100.0% 698.2Hz 5313 0 10.50ms
18° 100.0% 704.5Hz 5344 0 10.50ms
18° 100.0% 710.8Hz 5375 0 10.50ms
19° 100.0% 717.1Hz 5438 4 10.50ms
17° 100.0% 717.1Hz 5469 4 10.75ms
17° 100.0% 723.4Hz 5563 3 10.50ms
18° 100.0% 735.9Hz 5563 3 10.50ms
18° 100.0% 735.9Hz 5625 2 10.50ms
18° 100.0% 742.2Hz 5625 4 10.50ms
17° 100.0% 748.5Hz 5688 3 10.50ms
18° 100.0% 761.1Hz 5719 3 10.50ms
19° 100.0% 754.8Hz 5750 2 10.24ms
18° 100.0% 761.1Hz 5813 2 10.24ms
19° 100.0% 761.1Hz 5781 1 10.24ms
21° 100.0% 767.4Hz 5813 1 10.24ms
21° 10.6% 239.0Hz 5813 0 2.56ms

Now how do people run 20+ psi with a 16g and an afc??? Do they just let it knock like crazy? I'm only running 14-15 psi, and I want more. What do I need to do? Will a front mount help???

I just realized there's a seperate section for log advice. oops.

Ben

 

[GVR4592]

The intercooler could be holding you back, I haven't played with a stock intercooler in a long time so I don't really remember how far you can push it. You could also get a meth injection kit that would definitely help in running higher boost.

I would rewire that fuel pump though, it's probably not contributing to the knock, but once you need more fuel it's going to be an issue.

 

[Ben]

I have a rewire kit waiting to go in. I don't see any need until I have a larger turbo. I have one waiting(16g with a garret copressor wheel) but don't care to put it on yet if a 14b provides the most amount of boost I can run.

 

[kelvinb]

ben I would say an intercooler upgrade might be your best bet. when we talked last night I remember you saying you rewired the fuel pump so that shouldn't be an issue.

 

[Ben]

I need to post more recent logs with the 16g and oct booster.

that's my next move. a FMIC and, and a more aggresive chip. probaly a 11.2 : 1.

I'm not able to borrow a wideband. All 3 people I know when them have theh hardwired in.

 

[turboglenn]

Another thing to keep in mind is that a larger turbo will make less heat and there fore the engine should knock less at the same or higher boost levels as the result of a cooler air charge(as long as that was the original cause). It looks like you've got things going in the right direction though. But you might want to read up on how a larger turbo actually benefits you for day to day driving and how to size your turbo accordingly and get something that's going to flow the air amounts you want to flow but not be so large that your powerband becomes too small of a range for easy daily driving.

The only thing that confuses me about your log is the 10.2ms IDC around 5500 - 6k RPM. I was under the impression that our stock ECU;s went into batch fire mode over a certain boost level or load point to aid in cooling. And at that point 8ms would be aprox 80% IDC @ 6k RPM so 10 would have to be over 100 unless it stayed in sequntial mode and even then i don't think you'd have that much time for injection at those RPM levels.


OH and your question about people running high boost like 20 psi on a 16g , well they are running less timing than you're getting too. That curve looks really nice, so getting some knock with that much advance is normal on pump gas. To be running 20+psi on pump gas on the stock ECU, you would probably be pulling some timing out to avoid knock (or richening up the AFR's)

 

[Ben]

Right now on an ebay 16g, I have the same timing, but running just under 20 psi in 2nd and 3rd, and 22 or so in 4th anf 5th. For the 1st pass I won't see any knock. maybe a tiny bit, BUT after that 1st pass, bring on some more knock!!

I really want to buy a FMIC, there's an SBR race kit on ebay right now, but I DESPERATLY need a trans rebuild. so that's where my money will be going this weeks. Unless Jon at TRE says he doesn't have time. He just posted on his site that he's taking a month off soon. If he doesn't have time til after he gets back, then FMIC, here I come!!

I'm pretty sure I'm going get a Punishment racing FMIC kit.

My goal is to have a bolt on 50 trim, or something close to it. a 30r maybe.
BUT I rebuilt my engine not long ago(maybe has a few thousand miles on it) and used a stock non metal head gasket with sock head bolts. I don't know if that will be ok with a 50 trim. Maybe I can just install head studs one at a time with the stock headgasket??

Thanks for the help here

Ben

 

[turboglenn]

Yea, do the head studs one at a time if you don't want to change the HG when you do it. THat way it doesn't get fully unseated during the bolt chage over. But honestly it would be best to put a new one on while changing the bolts to studs. It's better to do it right once than half way twice!

 

[Ben]

I guess I'll just wait til I'm going to buy the turbo before I put in a metal headgasket and head studs in.

I'm really happy with the oct booster, but I'm sure I'll end up getting a meth kit.

I'v been seeing A LOT of your posts here recently as I'v been researching meth stuff.

Have you been able to try the larger meth nozzles with out an IC yet???

I think I'm going to go after an SBR race FMIC kit I'v been watching.

 

[Ben]

Well, I bought me an SBR race fmic. Can't wait for it to get here!!!

I think I'm going to see how it run for a week or so, then me a reburn from dsmchips with a more aggressive tune.

Especially since we found 93 oct in my area.

My current chip is set for 91. I may have him up it to 93, and retard my base timing a few degrees, and see how much boost I can run.