Tuning e85 with dsmlink

[90laserRSfwd]

Ok so I just spent 6 hours of my life over the last 4 days reading post after post and I didn't find a thing that has to do with tuning e85 with dsmlink. I info I was looking for wasn't to be found (not by me anyway) so hope this helps.

some quick info...
when I say gas I'm refering to premium unleaded fuel (93 oct in my case)
when I say e85 I'm refering to 85% ethanol (summer blend)
I have a 1992 Eagle Talon (fwd turbo). It's currently running 950cc FIC injectors and a 255 high pressure pump with an aermotive 1:1 fpr. Check my profile for mods.


ok here goes....

stoich for gas is approximately 14.7:1
stoich for e85 is approximately 9.765:1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85_in_standard_engines#Air_fuel_ratio_comparison

^^^ here's the link for the stoich of the e85 I'm talking about^^^

I have a gt35r turbo and want to tune my car (I have dsmlink) to run around 27 to 30 psi. My hp goal is around 500whp. Don't post a response if you don't know the answer, I'm going to be very upset if I ruin a new motor over some wrong advice.

ok on to my questions

1. Do I need to up my injectors? (If so what size)

2. How do I tune the dsmlink to make up for the fuel requirement difference's, I've been seeing you need to add approximately 27 to 33 % more fuel.

3. Can I set up the Innovative xd-16 (the wideband I just ordered) to show my 9.7:1 is stoich instead of 14.7:1, and if so how do I do that, if not how do I tune using the 14.7:1 as the stoich setting. I just got my dsmlink the other day and didn't get to register it yet so I don't have access to the dsmlink forums. This question may be answered there already. If so could someone post that info here (as apposed to just linking to it, so all of us can see it and use the information).

4. I'm currently running NGK 7 (brp7es) plugs, do I need to go colder then that?

5. I have an ACT2100 with streetdisc now (my current clutch) and I was thinking of going to either the 26 or 2900 when this one goes out... should I get the street disc again, or the sprung race 6 puck.. Perhaps a different clutch like the SBR 4500???

5. Anything you can add to this would be greatly appriciated

Thanks in advance

Jayson

 

[deflator]

For 500whp, you better get huge injectors. I'm planning 1000cc injectors for 350whp on e85. You'd probably get better guidance on the dsmlink forum though.

 

[90laserRSfwd]

after talking it over with some local guys here I've pretty much decided to just sell my 950's and get a set of 1600's. Any info on the wideband or tuning?

 

[biglady112]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253452&highlight=e85

I would say a set of 1150's will do nice. Most new guys to tuning have a hard time getting the 1600's to idle correctly without a injector driver box. I can do it, but there are still cruising issues with the 1600's. Only a driver box can fix random studdering and missing. It is not bad but I notice it at times.

Tune for 14.7:1 gasoline ratios still for cruise and part throttle. I presonally won't tune a street car for more than 11.5:1 gasoline on E85. I would say in my opinion not to go over 12.0:1. Plenty of power can be had, I just like to leave room on the table for boost and timing.

BPR7ES's or BR7ES's(non projected) plugs will be just fine. I ran the BR7ES without issues for 1000 miles. Just know that 1600's and E85 try to foul plugs much more often. E85 is doing most of it, but just change your plugs every oil change to be safe. E85 just doesn't give spark plugs a long shelf life.

I ran a ACT 2900 on my FWD and had no issues. I was making over 450lb/ft of torque. I say that clutch or twin disc.

Steven

 

[JayRolla]

Biglady knows what he is talking about. Listen to him. 1600's are too big for dsmlink, buddy here said its a pain and he is going to aem to run the 1600's. Tune to 11-11.5 afr at wot. If you have the car tuned for gas at a good afr around 11 you can add 30% on top of that and should get you pretty close to where you need to be.

Get a plx 300 wbo2, they have cheap replacement o2 sensors.

 

[90laserRSfwd]

so what your saying is just leave the wideband set up the way it is and tune for 11:1 afr anyway?

 

[90laserRSfwd]

Just wanted to let everyone know I'm a retard when it comes to dsmlink... someone help me out here please!!!

 

[90laserRSfwd]

On that paged you linked to (biglady112), it states that 950's are good for 42 lb. / min. (80% Injector Duty Cycle) and the 255 hp rewired will hold the same. How many psi (in your opinion) of boost would my turbo be able to make getting to that 42lb./min. ????

I would like to keep my 950's for the moment and save to upgrade my fmic and cams

I have a stock 1g head, stock 1g cams, stock 1g turbo intake manifold, 63mm 1g non turbo t/b, standard size valves, a ported 2g mani, pte scm6152e turbo, fmic (about 1.5 psi drop), 2 1/2" o2 dump, 3" downpipe; test pipe; and cat back

I know this question would be best left up to the logger on my dsmlink. Just wondering @ what psi to start my tuning. Thanks in advance

and since stoich for e85 is 9.765:1 isn't 8:1 a little lean?

 

[90laserRSfwd]

sorry for the excessive posting, what I meant was that if I tune the car for 11:1 afr on premium pump fuel and then switch out to straight e85, would I just add 30% to my WOT settings, and leave the part throttle and idle settings alone?

sorry I'm so stupid today, haha tell me the info againm this time acting like I'm retarded

Like...

ok dummy this what you do, tune your car (idle, cruise, and wot) for 11:1 AFR on premium fuel with your wideband...

then run all the premium out and switch to full on e85, add 30% everywhere on the fuel map, and then add timing till you see knock, once you see knock, use the timing setting before you got the knock as your tune

understand? like I said I'm dumb today

 

[NewTurboTuner]

1600's maybe be a pain in the butt to tune on DSMlink ....but 1600's are what you will need to get 500whp on E85.

A buddy with a EVO9 has 1200cc inj, & 1 Walbro255 ....his injectors are finished @ 445whp with E85. After he gets bigger injectors, he'll need to install another Walbro255.
Heck he already has the other 255 ready to install, but it doesn't even matter until he gets bigger injectors.

If you want 500whp on E85 then DSMlink might not be the way to go

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

...Not saying it won't work, but finer tuning is always better
Alot of people who are looking to run big HP with E85/E98 are considering dual fuel rails.

 

[gsx951]

I have been running 60psi base pressure so I can keep my Delphi 950cc injectors.
I've tried PTE and Ford/Bosch 1600cc injectors and pretty much hated them because of the part throttle stumble.

I'd say pretty much forget about fuel trims if you go with 1600cc: adjust deadtime to get the O2 to cycle and go from there. Follow your wideband. Set it up to read like you're running gas and shoot for what Steven said, 11.5:1 afr's.

A Walbro 255lph HP in tank and a Bosch 044 in-line are working out great for me. Jay racing is the hook up on Bosch pumps.

I'm running an FP Green at 29 psi and 11.5 afr in a 2.3. The car is running very strong with at most 1 degree of knock retard. The DSMlink hp calc says I'm right at 500hp, so your goal should be easily attainable.

For my set-up, an ACT 2600 has been working great.

I've been running E85 full time for almost a year and have had no problems other than reduced mpg and only two stations in the area selling the stuff.

 

[thekellbeast]

There are tons of people on the DSMLink forum that can help you out.

 

[NewTurboTuner]

There are tons of people on the DSMLink forum that can help you out.

Yup ...that would be the place to go

 

[JSpecEclipse]

hold the phone why do we need so much more fuel? 33% that is alot of extra fuel ...

for what pourpose is the extra fuel needed?

 

[JSpecEclipse]

ok looking at my fuel trim page on DSMLINK i see that ...
@2500-3000rpms my fuel goes from 0% to -12%.
then at 3500rpms -20%.
4k rpms -27%,
4500rpms it goes down to -31%,
5k rpms goes to -33%,
5500rpms -33%,
6000rpms -31% ,
6500rpms -33%,
7000rpms -32% ,
7500rpms -31%,
8000rpms -31%

global is set to -45%
dead time is 210

i have 680's precisions ballstyle peak and holds...
45psi fuel pressure at idol that rises to 55psi
aeromotive fuel filter
-6 from filter to rail and from rail to regulator
walboro 255lph pump with 10gauge power supply all the time...
tune was on c16 and boost was at 23#s on a precision SC6152E
i have a completly done head with comp 101300's and stock intake mani and throttlebody
the car through the automatic put out 385 awhp and 365ft lbs torque to the wheels.
a calculated 490+ crank horsepower. on a stock rotating assembly.


afr is 11.2 -11.7 consistant through out pull and likes to stay in the 11.4 range

my question is are the people who tuning the cars on e85 sugesting huge injectors and more fuel or is this some dumb misconception.

on my current tune i could add a shit pot load of fuel ... hell i could wash the walls with the extra fuel i have to give ...
now the real question is why do i need 33% more fuel?
if i do need the fuel, do i have enough fuel on my current setup? if not why?

sorry for the long post but i want real answers before i switch my setup to someting like this...

 

[JSpecEclipse]

spoke to the guys at englishracing.net referred to me by sonyslave on here. they informed me that the E85 is less dense than gasoline. so to obtain the same air fuel ratio that you have with gasoline you need on average between 30% - 40% more fuel...to compensate. now with that said he also informed me that the actual octane rating is close to 105 not better than C16 . this fuel would allow you to run a more aggresive tune than with pump 91. it is still not a better fuel than C16.


I have 680's now so a 33% increase is 680x.33 = 224.4 add that to the 680's
904.4cc's
a 40% increase would be add 272cc's totaling 952 cc's

this would essentially give me the same injector duty cycle that I have now .... using E85 achieving the same afr...

so for summary...

for the exact same power level that you achieve on pump gas (91-93)octane you need 30% more fuel to run E85... the fact that E85 has a higher octane rating means you then have the ability to run more boost and timing which usually ends up being 40% more fuel for the said power and airflow increase...

lets say you make 300hp on 20lbs on pump 85 % duty cycle on the injectors

on E85 with 33-40% increase in fuel capacity you could make 400 hp on 25 lbs of boost with added timing.

ultimately once the injectors reach 85% duty cycle there isn’t any more fuel there and a increase is needed...

 

[JayRolla]

spoke to the guys at englishracing.net referred to me by sonyslave on here. they informed me that the E85 is less dense than gasoline. so to obtain the same air fuel ratio that you have with gasoline you need on average between 30% - 40% more fuel...to compensate. now with that said he also informed me that the actual octane rating is close to 105 not better than C16 . this fuel would allow you to run a more aggresive tune than with pump 91. it is still not a better fuel than C16.


I have 680's now so a 33% increase is 680x.33 = 224.4 add that to the 680's
904.4cc's
a 40% increase would be add 272cc's totaling 952 cc's

this would essentially give me the same injector duty cycle that I have now .... using E85 achieving the same afr...

so for summary...

for the exact same power level that you achieve on pump gas (91-93)octane you need 30% more fuel to run E85... the fact that E85 has a higher octane rating means you then have the ability to run more boost and timing which usually ends up being 40% more fuel for the said power and airflow increase...

lets say you make 300hp on 20lbs on pump 85 % duty cycle on the injectors

on E85 with 33-40% increase in fuel capacity you could make 400 hp on 25 lbs of boost with added timing.

ultimately once the injectors reach 85% duty cycle there isn’t any more fuel there and a increase is needed...

Just because the octane is not as high as c16 does not mean c16 is better. Its incredible how much timing and boost you can run on e85 without knock. People are making more power on e85 than c16 with the same setups.

 

[90laserRSfwd]

any new updates?

 

[Hal]

1600's maybe be a pain in the butt to tune on DSMlink ....but 1600's are what you will need to get 500whp on E85.

A buddy with a EVO9 has 1200cc inj, & 1 Walbro255 ....his injectors are finished @ 445whp with E85. After he gets bigger injectors, he'll need to install another Walbro255.
Heck he already has the other 255 ready to install, but it doesn't even matter until he gets bigger injectors.

If you want 500whp on E85 then DSMlink might not be the way to go

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

...Not saying it won't work, but finer tuning is always better
Alot of people who are looking to run big HP with E85/E98 are considering dual fuel rails.

Try again.

I make about 600 to the wheels on E85 with 1150's (12.5:1 AFR) and do it with DSMLink.

Hal

 

[nanokpsi]

1600's maybe be a pain in the butt to tune on DSMlink ....but 1600's are what you will need to get 500whp on E85.

A buddy with a EVO9 has 1200cc inj, & 1 Walbro255 ....his injectors are finished @ 445whp with E85. After he gets bigger injectors, he'll need to install another Walbro255.
Heck he already has the other 255 ready to install, but it doesn't even matter until he gets bigger injectors.

If you want 500whp on E85 then DSMlink might not be the way to go

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

...Not saying it won't work, but finer tuning is always better
Alot of people who are looking to run big HP with E85/E98 are considering dual fuel rails.

Surely his injectors arn't at fault in that case. A single walbro will surely have trouble keeping pressure up on e85 when making that much power. You're friend is probably losing pressure and compensating with more duty cycle.

If you are going to be runing a Bosch pump, then you probably only need 1150cc injectors, as they will run out of room close to the same time as the pump on e85. I'm looking forward to retireing mine from daily duty so I can switch it over to e85 full time.

 

[Car Cannibal]

You will need two pumps for sure and it would be pointless to go lower than a 1150cc injector considering you want to make that much power. Another reason for two big pumps is that E85 does not have the lubricity that gas does, even more strain on the pump.

Concerning the wideband, it is reading the amount of oxygen in the exhaust regardless if it is gas or alcohol as the fuel. Just use the wideband numbers as if you were tuning on gas. Many have stated that forced induction cars are making more power around 11:1.

And even though E85 has a rating of 105 octane, it contains properties that go beyond just octane points in a forced induction vehicle and will act like a higher octane racing fuel.

You need more E85 due to it's BTU output, which is less than gas. Generally 30% at WOT and you should only see a 10-15% lose in gas mileage.

 

[JayRolla]

There is a good decrease in gas mileage. My brother gets a little over 200 miles to the tank which is not that great. He just blew his head gasket adding more boost. Its incredble how much timing and boost can be ran with the e85.

 

[90laserRSfwd]

I could care less about fuel mile-age (within reason, I would like to get at least 150 miles to a tank, stock 1g tank that is). I think I sounded like a ricer when I said I want to run x amount of boost. I'm looking to make 500whp, that is my goal. This is not my daily driven car. I don't need this thing to run all the time, just run like a raped ape when it does come out! There are some cobalt ss guys and some 4.6L gt mustang guys here that have a problem keeping there mouth shut. When I bring the Talon out (to the track of course) I don't to want it to be a close race at all. Thanks for the help so far. I'm still confused though about where to add fuel. Should I add 30% everywhere? Just at WOT? I'm going to register my dsmlink sometime today and get on the forums over there. The car is coming together nice now. I've decided to go with 1150cc FIC injectors, a 255hp intank walbro and a second 255 inline walbro pumps, both rewired. I'll be running -6an fuel line from tank to rail. My car is a non turbo to turbo conversion btw. It also started as an automatic car that is now 5 speed. I'll post some pic's of the car and a video when it's done. I'm currently building a turbo motor with 9.0:1 custom Ross pistons for the e85 500whp goal. Even though I could have done it on the stock internals.

 

[biglady112]

To the original poster. If you have a wideband there is no SET adustments that need to be made. Just do what the wideband tells you. I would do a full retune on the car after the switch. I don't know why you wouldn't.

My very good friend is running 51lbs/min on a rewired 255, 950's, water/methonal injection and stock fuel lines. He is running 11.7-12.0:1 gasoline ratios with the injection. His tune didn't change much however other than some global adjustment after the E85 switch.

Steven

 

[biglady112]

500hp is not an issue with E85. I made 510whp at 39psi on a stock engine. Stock from the throttle body to oil pan. My fuel system was overkill, and will be much smaller and simpler this time around. After what we have been experimenting on 2 2G's with.

Fuel economy is not bad if you have a bigger turbo. A 14b or 16g will give you poor economy either way, but the big turbo is out of boost and should help tremendosly. I got an average of 30mpg with my mirage. Awder here was getting no less than 26mpg in his 2G. You can tune around most things. Just run stoich gasoline ratios on part throttle and idle and you are good.

Steven