I went to the dyno and did some tuning on pump gas sunday, i gained 36hp in two pulls. After those two pulls i took the car right off the dyno because i was getting knock and i couldn't even advance the timing at all. So we figured it was the gas, i went out and bought race gas and tuned, NO knock, so i was able to advance the timing and tune much more aggressive.
Id much rather prefer using alcohol injection instead of race gas because race gas is just a big hassle. Has anyone ever ran alcohol injection on a similar setup to mine? I'm running 20psi on a 57 trim and pump gas doesn't seem to do the trick. I'm not to sure how my car would react to alcohol. I mean i know it'll do the trick but will i damage my motor? Id appreciate it if i could get some input on the pros and cons of alcohol injection. Thanks a lot
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There are quite a few threads on alcohol injection already. But anyway, yes you can run alcohol injection just fine as long as you get it sized properly. I run a 50/50 (distilled water/denatured alcohol) with stock 450 injectors and 19 psi boost on a FP Big28 with no timing being pulled. Before the 50/50 injection I was only able to get about 15 psi on my stockers.
Just this afternoon, before all the big thunderstorms rolled in. I took my car out for a run down the highway to test out my Coolingmist setup.
It was 96* outside air temp, 80+% humidity and I have my MBC set for 24psi on pump 93 gas. The coolingmist kit is set to activate at 10psi. I merged onto the highway, found the left lane wide open so I punched the gas. 24psi came on in a heartbeat, the logger showed NO knock all the way to 6500rpm in third and timing was between 18 and 22 degrees. The car felt great, maybe even a little rich yet so I think I might be able to pull a little more fuel out up top.
Our cars respond very well to H2O/Alcohol injected into the mix. BTW i was using the blue windshield washer fluid about 49.5% methanol, 50% distilled H2O and .5% blue dye.
No issues with the dye as of yet. I'll try to type the short story version. Late last yr during a dyno tuning session, to much detonation cause minor damage to my mitsu 4 layer head gasket. The symptom of this was only loosing coolant out of the overflow bottle ONLY under higher boost 15psi or more. Normal daily driving was fine no loss of coolant. I installed ARP head studs to try to seal the HG better but the damage was already done. Fast forward to May '05 I bought and installed the Coolingmist kit.
I have run the kit since June and last week took the car to JNZ Tuning for a HG replacement. After the head was removed, the valves, bowls were in like new condition. There was no sign of contamination from the "blue smurf piss" in my motor. My piston tops had some carbon build up on them from running too rich but it cleaned off very easily from the steam cleaning action of the Water injection. It was really hard to believe that my stock bottom end had 130K on it, at least by looking at the pistons and cylinder walls.
After the car was all back together. I ran it at the Englishtown Mitsu day last Sat. I only ran the car once down the track to get a new baseline tune. Everything logged perfectly at 18-19psi, actually it was still on the rich side. On the way home I turned up the boost to about 21psi and the car felt much better, still logging rich. This brings me to today, and my post above. At 24psi it feels like I have a new car again, compared to the 18psi I was running two weeks ago.
Bottom line I give two thumbs up for H20/Alcohol or Methanol injection!!! Plus it's far cheaper than race gas..
Our cars respond very well to H2O/Alcohol injected into the mix. BTW i was using the blue windshield washer fluid about 49.5% methanol, 50% distilled H2O and .5% blue dye.
Yup. Small 16G. 450s stock rewired pump hacked (& overrunning) stock 1g maf at 23 psi w/ no more than 3 counts of knock at any time.
I ran a 50/50 mix of Isopropyl and distilled h2o. I was wondering, the only think keeping me from going to the blue stuff is the summer/winter mix issues... Can one order the winter mix: which is for sure at 50% methanol? I think the summer mix is at 30% or less methanol...
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Matt
dd '90 GST, Holset H1C
There are quite a few threads on alcohol injection already. But anyway, yes you can run alcohol injection just fine as long as you get it sized properly. I run a 50/50 (distilled water/denatured alcohol) with stock 450 injectors and 19 psi boost on a FP Big28 with no timing being pulled. Before the 50/50 injection I was only able to get about 15 psi on my stockers.
Do you run a dual stage kit or a single stage? I am going to be purchasing a kit within the next 2 weeks to help with the stock SMIC. I'm not sure exactly which way I am going. I wasn't sure if one nozzle before the SMIC in the LICP would work, or if I should go with one after the SMIC in the UICP . Either that or a dual setup.
I have heard that putting one before the SMIC is worthless because you are wasting the cooling effects of the SMIC and should inject directly after the SMIC. But, I think I'm weird trying to run the stock SMIC.
DSM guys seem to be moving to 80/20 meth/distilled h20. Especially those that are running a direct port set up. That's just what I noticed on other boards.
TURFNNSURF - Are you using the single or dual stage kit? 100 or 150 psi pump? I recently spoke with David @ Cooling Mist. He didnt recommend using washer fluid. He recommended using the 50/50 mix of water and alcohol. But either way, I've heard great results from each.
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-Paul Volk-
'99 GSX
'91 TSI
Can you get that 80/20 pre-mixed somewhere like you can with the washer fluid, or is it something you have to make yourself?
No, it's race grade methonal from your local race boat/car builder and distilled water from where ever. I get it from walmart for 50cents a gallon Methonal is 3.50 a gal or $125 for a 55 drum here. Doesn't seem to vary too much around the country. From $3 to about $5 at the most. A 5 gallon gas can mixed with 80/20 lasts me a good 3-4 months on my daily driver.
Im using the single stage kit with the 150psi pump. I installed the injector nozzle just after the GM mas in my Throttle body elbow. When I placed my order with David, I believe I mentioned to him that I would be using the Washer fluid, and he didn't say not to. Although he did suggest that I mix my own Distilled H2O/Alcohol. I may try making a mix for my next batch, but so far the Washer fluid is working just fine.
Do you run a dual stage kit or a single stage? I am going to be purchasing a kit within the next 2 weeks to help with the stock SMIC. I'm not sure exactly which way I am going. I wasn't sure if one nozzle before the SMIC in the LICP would work, or if I should go with one after the SMIC in the UICP . Either that or a dual setup.
I have heard that putting one before the SMIC is worthless because you are wasting the cooling effects of the SMIC and should inject directly after the SMIC. But, I think I'm weird trying to run the stock SMIC.
I run the single stage. But then again I am setup with a 3" MAF in a blow through setup. You don't want the injection to run through your MAF. So I am just running a 300cc nozzle right into my TB elbow (about 4"-5" away from the actual TB).
If you are on stock MAF then you can run the dual stage through you SMIC as long as you are not running straight Meth. (it will eat away at your SMIC).
so then you guys would suggest running h20/alcohol.... Not 100% alcohol?
The alcohol helps us that are stock with 91-92 octane instead of 93+ as well as running on stock injectors. The alcohol adds octane and fuel so you don't run lean under higher boost. The water for the cooling effect.
I run the single stage. But then again I am setup with a 3" MAF in a blow through setup. You don't want the injection to run through your MAF. So I am just running a 300cc nozzle right into my TB elbow (about 4"-5" away from the actual TB).
If you are on stock MAF then you can run the dual stage through you SMIC as long as you are not running straight Meth. (it will eat away at your SMIC).
When I spoke with David @ Cooling Mist, I asked many questions regarding how I should set up a kit on my car, being I have MAFT blow-thru. He recommended a dual stage kit with the small injector being before the GM MAS and the larger injector being after. He said the output of the small injector would be small enough to not affect the sensor. Is this how everyone else is doing it too?
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-Paul Volk-
'99 GSX
'91 TSI
When I spoke with David @ Cooling Mist, I asked many questions regarding how I should set up a kit on my car, being I have MAFT blow-thru. He recommended a dual stage kit with the small injector being before the GM MAS and the larger injector being after. He said the output of the small injector would be small enough to not affect the sensor. Is this how everyone else is doing it too?
No, you DON'T want any water hitting your GM MAF. Your car will run horribly rich and probably die after the pull. I don't know why he would tell you that. Even assuming the nozzle was far enough down stream and injecting so little water where all of the water vaporized before it got the sensor, the water vapor in the air would still mess with the sensors readings.
No, you DON'T want any water hitting your GM MAF. Your car will run horribly rich and probably die after the pull. I don't know why he would tell you that. Even assuming the nozzle was far enough down stream and injecting so little water where all of the water vaporized before it got the sensor, the water vapor in the air would still mess with the sensors readings.
Cool, thanks for the info. Yeah, David made it sound like the first nozzle emitted such a small amount that is would vaporize before even reaching the sensor. He made it sound like it was such a small amount that the sensor would be un-affected. thanks for the heads up though.
So being that my MAS is only about 6 inches from the TB, would it be a waste of money to purchase the dual stage kit? Or would it still be beneficial to have 2 injectors only inches from the TB?? Also, does the 150 psi pump really make that much difference with atomization?
I'm thinking about it-- that progressive controller looks pretty nice. From what I can tell, it looks like you might need a MAP sensor for it, though, and I know nothing about those.
So being that my MAS is only about 6 inches from the TB, would it be a waste of money to purchase the dual stage kit? Or would it still be beneficial to have 2 injectors only inches from the TB?? Also, does the 150 psi pump really make that much difference with atomization?
The main reason for running two nozzles isn't to keep them far apart, it's to have the amount injection more proportional to the amount of air you're flowing. For example, I was running a 600cc nozzle and if I had the solenoid open at 4-5psi, the car would bog from all of that water and fuel coming in. If I had it open around 14psi, the car didn't bog but I'd get insane knock counts up until then due to the amount of fuel I was pulling. Now, I'm going to use a small, 150cc nozzle that activates ~3000rpm at 75%< throttle and the larger nozzle activate when I hit higher boost.
The best way to go is to use Aquamist's HSV. The valve pulses the fuel/water injection like a regular fuel injector with your rpms so it's proportional to the speed of your engine. I just wish there was a way to increase the amount of injection with the amount of airflow or boost you're seeing.
I am running a Shurflo pump, McMaster-Carr solenoid and aquamist nozzle about 2 inches from the t.b. (post blowthrough maf). So far my best results have been from a 75/25 mix of
methanol/water. The blue washer stuff works good but was putting a white "ash" type coating on the t.b. and u.i.c. pipe.Denatured alky. worked good too just not as well as the meth.If you can find a local sprint car/kart racer ect. they will usually give you a gallon or two of their old (or to those guys "bad") methanol for free.
On the logger I can turn the H2o injection off and on and see knock/no knock instantly.
I haven't kept up with the water/alky scene lately but that looks like what I was talking about Time to put the new no limit Citi bank card to use
Edit: Actually, that looks like it just varys power to the pump. With the pump in the rear of my car at the washer resivour, that wouldn't be ideal. If you had the pump in the engine bay like the picture posted a few posts back, that would work ok.
Please pardon my ignorance, but why does pump location affect whether this is a good solution or not? I was thinking of mounting the pump in the rear near the washer reservoir as well.
If you're activating your WI by powering on the pump, the pump has to fill the lines between the pump and nozzle to the 100psi or 150psi you're running. I have the power to my pump on at all times and a solenoid in the engine bay is what activates the WI. There's only about 8" of line between the solenoid and nozzle rather than 15' running through the car.
An example, when I turn on my WI system and pressurize the line from the pump to the solenoid, it takes about 2-3 seconds to get from ~0psi to 135psi. Considering you can't maintain pressure in the lines between the pump and nozzle if you don't have a solinoid, it would take too long to build the 100-150 psi at the nozzle every time you spooled the turbo.
It's good that controllers and gizmos and jimcrackery are all out there for cheap. And, it's certainly good to use them, and if you're up on the edge of performance they're highly recommended.
However, for normal street use, the first, biggest payoff from virtually any type of water "injection" (or, just plain sucking) is how clean a very tiny amount of water keeps the combustion chambers.
Don't hold-back on doing it just because you want to get it all just exactly right. Provided simple safeguards are implemented (making sure it can't flow too much, or fill the cylinders when parked on a grade, for instance :eek: ), even an off-peak WI setup is a very, very good thing.
Methonal is 3.50 a gal or $125 for a 55 drum here. Doesn't seem to vary too much around the country. From $3 to about $5 at the most. A 5 gallon gas can mixed with 80/20 lasts me a good 3-4 months on my daily driver.
Time to put the new no limit Citi bank card to use 
