Looking for Recommendations after 1st Two Logs

[98GSX-WI]

Hey all...

I finally got my AFPR and SAFCII installed and did two logs this morning. I have a FPBig28, full 3" exhaust, EVOIII O2 & Mani, with 255hp pump and 650's running @ 20psi. I also have the Keydiver Stage 3 chip to compensate for the 650's. Therefore, I set my Th Points at 69/70 and just set the trims at -5 at 1000rpm and then -2 across that board for the Low Setting. I left the High settings at zero.

Here are the two logs. I am loosing some timing, so I am assuming that I need to add fuel -- but my question would be...exactly where would you add it and how much? Thanks for your help.

98 GSX @ 20psi on 09/26/2004 - Log 1

Time RPM-Timing---Airflow-O2
0.50-2876---14-----6.49---0.88
0.97-3020---18-----7.83---0.90
1.45-3160---13-----9.39---0.90
1.93-3324---9-----11.52---0.94
2.40-3532---9-----14.66---0.94
2.89-3732---5-----17.50---0.94
3.38-4004---6-----18.79---0.94
3.86-4256---8-----20.28---0.94
4.34-4452---8-----22.33---0.94
4.82-4728---9-----24.12---0.94
5.30-4952---10----25.54---0.94
5.78-5208---11----27.07---0.94
6.27-5460---11----28.42---0.94
6.75-5620---11----29.63---0.94
7.24-5852---9-----30.87---0.96
7.72-6044---9-----31.50---0.96
8.20-6240---10----32.14---0.96
8.68-6408---10----32.63---0.96
9.16-6572---10----33.11---0.96
9.64-5816---10----33.32---0.28

98 GSX @ 20psi on 09/26/2004 - Log 2

Time RPM-Timing---Airflow-O2
0.49-2592---16-----5.25---0.82
0.97-2696---19-----6.16---0.86
1.45-2828---18-----6.93---0.88
1.93-2944---15-----8.03---0.90
2.41-3084---12-----9.35---0.90
2.89-3260---11----11.05---0.92
3.37-3448---8-----13.31---0.94
3.86-3656---7-----16.41---0.92
4.33-3888---6-----17.98---0.94
4.82-4108---7-----19.18---0.94
5.31-4336---8-----21.05---0.94
5.79-4584---9-----22.91---0.96
6.27-4824---9-----24.76---0.94
6.75-5064---9-----25.98---0.94
7.22-5288---11----27.43---0.94
7.70-5500---9-----28.82---0.94
8.19-5712---10----29.93---0.96
8.68-5944---11----30.43---0.96
9.15-6144---12----31.14---0.96
9.64-6304---12----31.63---0.96
10.11-6508---12---32.20---0.96
10.60-6664---12---32.94---0.96
11.09-6820---13---32.97---0.96
11.57-6968---11---33.26---0.96

 

[turbolarry]

Why are your high and low throttle so close together? Have you tried 30% for low and 80% for high? Your fuel pressure is set at 43 psi, right? For the best "pictue," log only timing, tps, rpm's, and O2's. Assuming you at WOT the secod log looks O.K. Add 2% at 5000 rpm

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58403

 

[98GSX-WI]

Why are your high and low throttle so close together? Have you tried 30% for low and 80% for high? Your fuel pressure is set at 43 psi, right? For the best "pictue," log only timing, tps, rpm's, and O2's. Assuming you at WOT the secod log looks O.K. Add 2% at 5000 rpm

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58403

I put the low and high throttle close together based on the following recommendation from a tuning guide that I found:
"For a DSM application, it is easier to tune if the maps are either on or off, instead of mixing the values between them. Set the Th-Point to 69/70 so it uses the LO map up to 69% throttle and then goes to full HI map beyond that. This separates the maps into closed loop and open loop maps, making it easier to tune."

My FPR is set at 43psi with hose off.

I substituted airflow for tps, because my throttle plate is opening all of the way at WOT, but the logger only reads 97%. I'm not sure why, but since someone checked when I pushed the accelerated all of the way down that the throttle plate was all of the way open....I figured that it made no sense to monitor this....

Since my first message, I added 4% from 4000rpm to 7600rpm (at both low and high throttle) and did another run. I'm running WOT in 3rd gear. I only had one dip in timing from 11 @ 5548rpm to 10 @ 5748rpm...and timing went up to a peak of 13 at 6844rpm. Now what do you think I should do next?

 

[CanadianTSi]

Set your throttle points to 25ish and 75ish

 

[kpt4321]

"For a DSM application, it is easier to tune if the maps are either on or off, instead of mixing the values between them. Set the Th-Point to 69/70 so it uses the LO map up to 69% throttle and then goes to full HI map beyond that. This separates the maps into closed loop and open loop maps, making it easier to tune."

1. First of all, this is simply wrong, and a bad idea. The throttle points are there for a reason, as they allow you to build a 3D tapered correction map.

2. This will NOT make the maps "open loop and closed loop" as claimed, since that switch is dependant on airflow per rev and TPS, and the TPS switch value is not constant.

Since my first message, I added 4% from 4000rpm to 7600rpm (at both low and high throttle) and did another run. I'm running WOT in 3rd gear. I only had one dip in timing from 11 @ 5548rpm to 10 @ 5748rpm...and timing went up to a peak of 13 at 6844rpm. Now what do you think I should do next?

I was going to suggest the you add fuel / take out timing, so it's good to see that you did that.

Basically, keep adding fuel/airflow signal until the timing starts to go back down, and then leave it there. You want to get the timing as high as possible.

 

[turbolarry]

Since my first message, I added 4% from 4000rpm to 7600rpm (at both low and high throttle) and did another run. I'm running WOT in 3rd gear. I only had one dip in timing from 11 @ 5548rpm to 10 @ 5748rpm...and timing went up to a peak of 13 at 6844rpm. Now what do you think I should do next?

Post it. Let's see the timing pattern.
Where's that "tuning guide for DSM applications?"

 

[kpt4321]

Post it. Let's see the timing pattern.
Where's that "tuning guide for DSM applications?"

Tech articles.

 

[turbolarry]

I love the tech article one, it's the one that says;
"For a DSM application, it is easier to tune if the maps are either on or off, instead of mixing the values between them. Set the Th-Point to 69/70 so it uses the LO map up to 69% throttle and then goes to full HI map beyond that. This separates the maps into closed loop and open loop maps, making it easier to tune."

That's the one I'm wondering about.

 

[98GSX-WI]

I have another question. Should I totally disregard my EGT when tuning. The reason that I asked is because I've read where people tune using EGT and try to get the temp up to about 1500 deg F to 1600 deg F. My EGT's never go above 1400 deg F. Should I stop tuning when my timing curve looks good with no knock...or should I try to also raise by EGT?

Thanks. I find all of this tuning stuff and the theory very interesting....

 

[98GSX-WI]

Post it. Let's see the timing pattern.
Where's that "tuning guide for DSM applications?"

Here is the last log with an increase of 4% fuel from 4K to 7.6K. Does this look any good, or should I keep tuning?

Time-- RPM--- Timing-O2
0.50- 2764--- 22---- 0.90
0.97- 2920--- 19---- 0.92
1.44- 3072--- 16---- 0.92
1.93- 3252--- 11---- 0.92
2.40- 3432--- 9----- 0.94
2.88- 3652--- 9----- 0.96
3.37- 3864--- 7----- 0.96
3.86- 4132--- 8----- 0.96
4.34- 4340--- 9----- 0.96
4.82- 4624--- 9----- 0.98
5.30- 4840--- 9----- 0.96
5.79- 5084--- 10---- 0.96
6.26- 5308--- 10---- 0.96
6.75- 5548--- 11---- 0.96
7.23- 5748--- 10---- 0.96
7.72- 5944--- 11---- 0.96
8.20- 6124--- 12---- 0.96
8.68- 6312--- 12---- 0.96
9.15- 6432--- 13---- 0.96
9.64- 6596--- 13---- 0.96
10.11- 6736-- 13---- 0.96
10.61- 6844-- 13---- 0.96

 

[turbolarry]

I find all of this tuning stuff and the theory very interesting....

Putting together this picture is a trip huh?
For me, EGT's are just another little piece. I'm ultra conservative and keep them low, rarely crack 1450. I could probably squeeze out more power, but I've also had the car for 8 years and 140K+ miles. Still on stock internals, no problems, and still playing it safe.

I think your timing looks good, but it looks like your turbo spools slow. FP Big T-28 spooling 3700-3800 rpms?

 

[98GSX-WI]

Putting together this picture is a trip huh?
For me, EGT's are just another little piece. I'm ultra conservative and keep them low, rarely crack 1450. I could probably squeeze out more power, but I've also had the car for 8 years and 140K+ miles. Still on stock internals, no problems, and still playing it safe.

I think your timing looks good, but it looks like your turbo spools slow. FP Big T-28 spooling 3700-3800 rpms?

Yes, that's a good observation about the slow spooling...I made a different post recently where I asked what gear people are doing their pulls in to check rpms to see when they hit maximum boost...but nobody responded.

The only thing that I can think of...is that the EVO O2 housing that I have caused my 3" downpipe to come off at a different angle and rest up against the transfer case. I had to have the downpipe heated-up and dented flat in two spots to clear the transfer case...maybe the restriction in the downpipe is causing the slow spooling??

 

[turbolarry]

My SBR T-28 hits full boost (set at 17lbs.) by 3200 rpms in third. If you can spool sooner you should see better timing. New DP? How big are the dents? Ditch the cat?

 

[98GSX-WI]

My SBR T-28 hits full boost (set at 17lbs.) by 3200 rpms in third. If you can spool sooner you should see better timing. New DP? How big are the dents? Ditch the cat?

I experimented today...in third--full boost (20psi) at 3700-3800rpm. In fourth and fifth--full boost at 3400-3500rpm.

The dents in the DP are very big...like I said, they are more like big flat spots about 4" long (2 of them). I have a 3" high-flow cat that I can't ditch...we have emissions testing here in southeast Wisconsin. I do have an Apexi Downpipe just lying around that would eliminate the cat....maybe I can have it cut and welded onto my cat... The Apexi downpipe starts at 2.5" to the first bend...maybe this would give me better clearance...I will look into that...

I do have a ported turbo, but the EVO O2 housing and the EVO manifold are not ported. I thought at the time that since the EVO parts had larger openings than stock, that porting wouldn't be necessary. I don't have any boost creep at all.

I'm going to have to seriously look into this.... Full boost that late defeats the whole purpose of having a Big28.

 

[RavenX]

you have the same problem as i do. Too low timing except you get 13 and i get 14. Shouldn't our cars be hitting around 18-19 degrees of timing. In either case i already decided on ditching the keydiver chip with the afc as its not getting me the results i want and just gonna upgrade to dsmlink and have the car tuned. Heres a log of mine check that out 4 degrees of timing .

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[turbolarry]

RavenX is right. I get 19 degrees peak advance, and this is on an old log before fuel tuning.

RPM O2's Timing TPS
2640 0.89 21 98
2772 0.93 14 98
2960 0.93 11 98
3184 0.95 8 98
3404 0.95 7 98
3636 0.95 8 98
3848 0.95 9 98
4076 0.95 10 98
4288 0.97 10 98
4512 0.97 10 98
4716 0.97 10 98
4876 0.97 10 98
5084 0.97 11 98
5260 0.97 12 98
5428 0.97 12 98
5612 0.95 14 98
5788 0.95 16 98
5960 0.95 17 98
6104 0.95 18 98
6272 0.95 19 98
6420 0.95 19 98
6552 0.95 18 98
6664 0.95 18 98
6772 0.95 19 98
6880 0.95 19 98

 

[98GSX-WI]

you have the same problem as i do. Too low timing except you get 13 and i get 14. Shouldn't our cars be hitting around 18-19 degrees of timing. In either case i already decided on ditching the keydiver chip with the afc as its not getting me the results i want and just gonna upgrade to dsmlink and have the car tuned. Heres a log of mine check that out 4 degrees of timing .

RavenX--so what rpm are you getting full boost at--and what boost are you running? When reading the logs does anyone know if it's accurate to say that when the timing hits it's first low, that is the rpm where you have hit full boost?

 

[RavenX]

i have the evo16g and i hit full boost around 3,800. On that specific log i had the boost at 18psi. Either way dsmlink is getting ordered on monday