how do you make big horsepower on pump gas

Mellon · May 2, 2004

how do you make big horsepower on pump gas?

I'm subcribing to the high boost/low timing theory but don't have any proof. Has anyone done any testing to see if high timing/low boost is better or High boost/low timing is better?

I'm using the greddy e-manage to retard timing under boost to keep knock away.. it works and the car feels good but Ive been told by others that I'll make more horsepower by lowering the boost and ramping up the timing.

suggestions??

91TalonChic · May 2, 2004

Tuning is the main key!!! I don't have much done to my car and my bf tuned it on the dyno and it put down 313hp/335tq. I have a big 16g..... this was only in 3 pulls too. I would've went for the full hour but I was a little short on cash. I know I eliminated my knock sensor. But, he tuned it for me and it did fine.

kpt4321 · May 2, 2004

Eliminating your knock sensor is a bad idea, and that's all I am going to say about that.

You are correct that lots of boost and not a ton of timing is the way to go.

el aguila · May 2, 2004

kpt4321 said:
You are correct that lots of boost and not a ton of timing is the way to go.

Any more info on that? I always thought lower boost with more timing and less knock was the way?

G9S1X · May 2, 2004

91TalonChic said:
I know I eliminated my knock sensor.

Put it back on :thumbdown and i pray your not using 87 octane

kpt4321 · May 2, 2004

el aguila said:
Any more info on that? I always thought lower boost with more timing and less knock was the way?

I am not sure exactly what to tell you. With a big turbo, a lot of people end up with timing down in the mid to high teens, and boost well over 20 psi. The gained airflow more than makes up for the lack of timing, and timing needs to go down anyway when boost goes up.

91TalonChic · May 2, 2004

G9S1X said:
Put it back on :thumbdown and i pray your not using 87 octane

Well, I'm not dumb enough to use 87. And you all should come up here cause 90% of the DSM's running around eliminated their knock sensors too. It just depends on if you know what you are doing or not.

tanner261 · May 2, 2004

91TalonChic said:
Well, I'm not dumb enough to use 87. And you all should come up here cause 90% of the DSM's running around eliminated their knock sensors too. It just depends on if you know what you are doing or not.

Um, yeah!?!?

kpt4321 · May 2, 2004

91TalonChic said:
Well, I'm not dumb enough to use 87. And you all should come up here cause 90% of the DSM's running around eliminated their knock sensors too. It just depends on if you know what you are doing or not.

I'm not going to start a huge argument with you. However...

If you do know what you are doing, then there is no need to eliminate the knock sensor. If a car is built, maintained, and tuned correctly, the knock sensor is one of your best tools for tuning and safety, ESPECIALLY if you are trying to make a lot of power on pump gas. If you're tuning to the edge and driving the car daily, you really want the ECU to be able to yank timing out if it sees damage on the way, or your little party is going to be ended when a rod goes through your block.

Bd1000Eclipse · May 3, 2004

91TalonChic said:
Well, I'm not dumb enough to use 87. And you all should come up here cause 90% of the DSM's running around eliminated their knock sensors too. It just depends on if you know what you are doing or not.

So if all the other little DSM people jumped off a bridge would you too? Does your b/f know your knock sensor is gone, too? If so... :laugh:

Mellon · May 3, 2004

personally I don't forsee disabling my knock sensor for safety reasons with pump gas but that's another conversation. Let's see if I can get us back on topic

Here's my situation.. my turbo is known to be efficient in the 20-24psi range max. I'm running 93 octane and 20psi on the street and timing is as high as it will go at each rpm range without inducing knock. Would I be better off running 17psi and advancing the timing? Would that make more power or would it be safer?

kpt4321 · May 3, 2004

What turbo do you have?

You're probably better off at 20 psi with les timing, but it depends how much is "less."

TargeT · May 3, 2004

kpt4321 said:
What turbo do you have?

You're probably better off at 20 psi with les timing, but it depends how much is "less."

I was pushing 26lbs on my Big 16G and getting 17degree's of timing with about 10 counts of knock @ 6500-7500

then i spun a rod bearing... LOL

but i'd definatly say that more fuel = more power, and more boost = more fuel so basicaly more boost = more power (as long as your not exceding your ability to cool the boost so you dont get crazy knock)

and remeber that some turbos have different efficentcy ranges.. I'm not sure what mine is (big 16G) but with my set up it seemed to be that 24lbs on pump was the sweet spot

91TalonChic · May 3, 2004

Bd1000Eclipse said:
So if all the other little DSM people jumped off a bridge would you too? Does your b/f know your knock sensor is gone, too? If so... :laugh:

Well, I don't know why all of you are jumping up my ass just from saying I eliminated my knock sensor. I just told the guy what I dyno'ed on pump without it. My car has NEVER had it on their and neither has my BF's car. His car is fully built with a pt67 on it and spray. I don't know why you are attacking me. My car is perfect..... my bf has built these specific cars for 7 yrs. now and guess what? He's never had a problem, he knows what he is doing. SO, sorry Mellon I let you know what "I" did to my car and everyone attacked me for it. I mean, hell, if you all would like to make a trip up here to the DSM meet coming up and see the cars..... be my guest. As for Mellon..... good luck with your car!!!! :thumb:

TargeT · May 3, 2004

91TalonChic said:
Well, I don't know why all of you are jumping up my ass just from saying I eliminated my knock sensor. I just told the guy what I dyno'ed on pump without it. My car has NEVER had it on their and neither has my BF's car. His car is fully built with a pt67 on it and spray. I don't know why you are attacking me. My car is perfect..... my bf has built these specific cars for 7 yrs. now and guess what? He's never had a problem, he knows what he is doing. SO, sorry Mellon I let you know what "I" did to my car and everyone attacked me for it. I mean, hell, if you all would like to make a trip up here to the DSM meet coming up and see the cars..... be my guest. As for Mellon..... good luck with your car!!!!

look, no need to get all defensive.
the point that was being made is, what you have done by removing your knock sensor makes it so you can put some good numbers down, but how do you know when your engine is being damaged ? I'm sure your car will be perfect right untill you arc weld your valves to your head, or bend a stem or break a rod due to detonation (knock)

try to take our advice for what it is,, advice..

I'm replacing a short block right now because of engine failure,, my car ran Awsome.. right untill it blew up

either way, good luck :talon:

Mellon · May 3, 2004

no need to apologise 91TalonChic. I don't like the way the ecu retards timing during knock and it probably won't save an engine that's knocking severely but it's a nice little indicator. Keep pushing the envelope and good luck to you as well :thumb:

New and unproven ideas scare the hell out of people OMG

I have 720cc injectors and the e-manage piggy back so by fooling the ecu into seeing less air I'm getting much more timing than I need and thus get knock as low as 15psi. so I'm having to retard timing as much as 20 degrees from ~5500rpm to redline.. the pocketlogger is seeing as much as high 20's so in some cases timing could be as low as 6-8 degrees while @ 20psi. at the lower rpm's I'm advancing the timing or retarding a slight bit befor the full 20psi of boost comes on (3700rpm typically)

If I had to do it over again I might have gone with a bit smaller injector but I read too many times where people went with 550cc and later found out that it just wasn't enough. Retarding the excess timing with the e-manage seemed like the logical choice since I'd have the room to grow with 720cc injectors should I need it.

TargeT · May 3, 2004

Mellon said:
no need to apologise 91TalonChic. I don't like the way the ecu retards timing during knock and it probably won't save an engine that's knocking severely but it's a nice little indicator. Keep pushing the envelope and good luck to you as well New and unproven ideas scare the hell out of people

I have 720cc injectors and the e-manage piggy back so by fooling the ecu into seeing less air I'm getting much more timing than I need and thus get knock as low as 15psi. so I'm having to retard timing as much as 20 degrees from ~5500rpm to redline.. the pocketlogger is seeing as much as high 20's so in some cases timing could be as low as 6-8 degrees while @ 20psi. at the lower rpm's I'm advancing the timing or retarding a slight bit befor the full 20psi of boost comes on (3700rpm typically)

kinda sounds like you have some cooling problems, whats your IC set up?

I used to get crazy knock at 18-19lbs, then i put an alcohol injection system on,, and i can run 24lbs of boost with hardly any knock.. (and just like you said, people thought i was fukin bonkers when i said i was going with alch injection... now they all want to use it too.. LOL

)

edit: of course, this was all before i spun a rodbearing ,, so take it with a grain of salt

kpt4321 · May 3, 2004

91TalonChic said:
Well, I don't know why all of you are jumping up my ass just from saying I eliminated my knock sensor. I just told the guy what I dyno'ed on pump without it. My car has NEVER had it on their and neither has my BF's car. His car is fully built with a pt67 on it and spray. I don't know why you are attacking me. My car is perfect..... my bf has built these specific cars for 7 yrs. now and guess what? He's never had a problem, he knows what he is doing. SO, sorry Mellon I let you know what "I" did to my car and everyone attacked me for it. I mean, hell, if you all would like to make a trip up here to the DSM meet coming up and see the cars..... be my guest. As for Mellon..... good luck with your car!!!!

What?

Eliminating your knock sensor is a bad idea. End of story. I don't care how long your boyfriend has been building cars, for a street car it's not a good idea.

Blk_99gst · May 3, 2004

91TalonChic said:
Well, I don't know why all of you are jumping up my ass just from saying I eliminated my knock sensor. I just told the guy what I dyno'ed on pump without it. My car has NEVER had it on their and neither has my BF's car. His car is fully built with a pt67 on it and spray. I don't know why you are attacking me. My car is perfect..... my bf has built these specific cars for 7 yrs. now and guess what? He's never had a problem, he knows what he is doing. SO, sorry Mellon I let you know what "I" did to my car and everyone attacked me for it. I mean, hell, if you all would like to make a trip up here to the DSM meet coming up and see the cars..... be my guest. As for Mellon..... good luck with your car!!!!

I'm sorry but I have to agree with everyone else. Maybe you mean your bf removed all the knock you were seeing... :confused:

But you can't just go removing sensors that the ecu's need/use. The ecu is expecting some value from the knock sensor. If you just pull it out, it won't get any signal from it and who knows what the ecu would do. Imagine if you just pulled out your front o2 sensor (or when it fails). If the ecu doesn't see that signal anymore, it freaks out and will run your car super rich; that's its way of protecting itself since it's not getting any air/fuel feedback. I'd bet 5 bucks that you're knock sensor is still in there. Take a picture and it's really gone, then I'll paypal you five bucks! :thumb:

TurboGeoff · May 4, 2004

Thanks for all your helpful responses guys, Mellon and I are from the 3000GT/Stealth board, so we are spoolin around with two turbos, but sometimes i wanna kill my VR4 and get a DSM for their simplicity.

High Boost/Low timing all the way.

With cars, the first thing I learned about was horsepower.
then i learned about drag racing
after that, i learned about boost
and while i was having fun, i felt like there was something missing.
so i learned about traction, and now i know the answer to life, the universe, and everything.

Turbo AWD Owns!

-Geoff

NOSLO2PT0 · May 4, 2004

I've got a lot of ideas on how to make good power on pump gas. I believe the key is high boost/low timing. If I get too much timing, the car knocks. I run 25psi, straight 93 octane, and run mid 11's. I am going to try for 27psi this year, and maybe some 11.3x timeslips. I'll have to get rid of even more timing. I'm going to have to turn up the base fuel pressure in order to keep the ECU happy with timing/airflow maps. However, my other source of timing retard will come in the form of retarding base timing. I'm going to start at 0, then slowly advance timing 1 deg. each pass and see if I see any improvements.

When you run low boost and high timing, your tuning window shrinks dramatically as cylinder pressures i imagine are greater. And when poor tuning does occur with this configuration, results are catastrophic.

91TalonChic · May 4, 2004

Blk_99gst said:
I'm sorry but I have to agree with everyone else. Maybe you mean your bf removed all the knock you were seeing...
I'd bet 5 bucks that you're knock sensor is still in there. Take a picture and it's really gone, then I'll paypal you five bucks!

I never said it wasn't there..... re-read. I said it has been eliminated. I do think alot of you don't think I know what I am doing cause I am a girl. My knock sensor has been eliminated, it will remain that way, I datalog my car like 3 times a week. I have a very knowlegdable person help me with it. She is very well taken care of and makes decent power for what she has. I am done.... no need to jump my case for the knock sensor. I should've just kept my mouth closed. But, oh well. Never had a problem before..... no blown motors, nothing. So, carry on......

Like I told Mellon before, good luck with the car.

NOSLO2PT0 · May 4, 2004

91TalonChic said:
I datalog my car like 3 times a week. I have a very knowlegdable person help me with it. .

This person that has been building DSM's for 7 years. What has he done? Any monkey can slap a T67 on a car. Let's hear some #'s or ET's. Prove to us that he knows what he is doing. A mechanic can tear our engine down and put it back together as well. Does it mean he knows what he is doing when it comes to modding the car? NO.

kpt4321 · May 4, 2004

91TalonChic said:
I do think alot of you don't think I know what I am doing cause I am a girl.

Not true. I think you don't know what you are doing because you disabled your knock sensor.

91TalonChic · May 4, 2004

Where should I start?!?!?! Well, about 5 years ago he had a mustang with over 600hp that pulled the wheels. Then he got into DSM's. He had an AWD with a green that went 7.20@100mph(untuned and fuel cutting cause his friends just talked him into running it at the last minute) 8th mile. He set the record at the track here and kept it for a year and lost it cause he dropped out of the scene for a while(personal issues). A colt that had 427hp on pump gas with a green. All of these were built in HIS garage at home. Him and his friend would work all hours of the night on peoples cars. He gets calls and IM's everyday from people needing his help. He is very well known in the Kentuckiana area. I could go on and on..... but i have only been through about a third of all the things he has done. But there are many people here that can testify he knows what he is doing. Oh, and all the things I listed above(excluding the mustang) were with stock motors. His Mirage will be his first "fully built" DSM motor!!! He hasn't tested out the 67 yet cause he just got it but the Mirage had a 61 on it but it was never dyno'ed or taken to the track! He has done many things...... I wish I could list them all, but I don't know all of them and I can't remember some of them.

Anyways, please stay off my back. You can call BS or whatever if you want. I just gave input to Mellon's like everyone else in this thread..... and look what happened. I have been on here 4 days and people are jumping my case left and right, for a freakin' KNOCK SENSOR!!!! Get over it already, it isn't gonna change! If you cannot be nice to me, then please just leave me alone!

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how do you make big horsepower on pump gas

Mellon

91TalonChic

kpt4321

el aguila

G9S1X

kpt4321

91TalonChic

tanner261

kpt4321

Bd1000Eclipse

Mellon

kpt4321

TargeT

91TalonChic

TargeT

Mellon

TargeT

kpt4321

Blk_99gst

TurboGeoff

NOSLO2PT0

91TalonChic

NOSLO2PT0

kpt4321

91TalonChic

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