As i have now had some constructive criticisum. thank you GTM.. I would like to say that i did get the pump to run.. I did infact test the old pump and found it able to power up, although i only did this for about 3 seconds, it worked perfectly...

So i decided to check unleash the fuel filter, to no evail i just watched as the check switch did nothing but spark..

I since have pulled the pump out once again after hearing it run for two 5 second spells and then stop on the original installation.. I found that the power lead that was in the tank had burned or melted... I could have lost my car, what the hell!!! i will probably invest in a fire extinguisher... Alright, that said, i rewired the pump with a new eyelet.. this time i realized that the little boot that covers the power cable, at the spot that melted on the base of the fuel cover, had not been properly seated and also the new wire was smaller then the original so i made sure the boot seated well and melted pastic around the top of the boot that would seal the wire in..
To my surprise, my baby whimpered some, fired up and ran for 1 minute. At this time i was shutting the hood and getting ready to move her.. When i let the hood down.. the engine stalled...
I jumped into the drivers seat and thats when i smelt it... burning wires AGAIN... AHHHH... so i can't tell where the burning is coming from... but i know she is melting something.. sniffle sniffle... What do i do now..

It sounds like i may have something not proper, i have taken a break for tonight as i am cold and angered again.. In need of serious help.. Rusty..

rustyoldsmoker said:

As i have now had some constructive criticisum. thank you GTM.. I would like to say that i did get the pump to run.. I did infact test the old pump and found it able to power up, although i only did this for about 3 seconds, it worked perfectly...

So i decided to check unleash the fuel filter, to no evail i just watched as the check switch did nothing but spark..

I since have pulled the pump out once again after hearing it run for two 5 second spells and then stop on the original installation.. I found that the power lead that was in the tank had burned or melted... I could have lost my car, what the hell!!! i will probably invest in a fire extinguisher... Alright, that said, i rewired the pump with a new eyelet.. this time i realized that the little boot that covers the power cable, at the spot that melted on the base of the fuel cover, had not been properly seated and also the new wire was smaller then the original so i made sure the boot seated well and melted pastic around the top of the boot that would seal the wire in..
To my surprise, my baby whimpered some, fired up and ran for 1 minute. At this time i was shutting the hood and getting ready to move her.. When i let the hood down.. the engine stalled...
I jumped into the drivers seat and thats when i smelt it... burning wires AGAIN... AHHHH... so i can't tell where the burning is coming from... but i know she is melting something.. sniffle sniffle... What do i do now..

It sounds like i may have something not proper, i have taken a break for tonight as i am cold and angered again.. In need of serious help.. Rusty..

Click to expand...

Bummer that you replaced the pump seemingly when not needed. Wonderful that you now know the car can RUN!!!!!!

It is considered bad manners to correct someone's English/grammar/spelling so please forgive me for I need to understand the sentence unleash ... evail (avil) etc.??

You have isolated the problem to electrical wires. The best I can suggest is to forget what you have been trying to follow in wiring diagrams.

Disconnect all added wires, install proper working relays into factory sockets. Install a pair of wires, 1 connected to ground and the other wired from battery + into a toggle switch, out of toggle switch to pump. This should make the car run reliably forever but since you have bypassed the ign switch you will have to turn the switch on and off it will run the battery down if you forget when you turn the key to off. Only you know what you have done and we can't sort that out without seeing the car. We can guess that some relay or fuse failed and subsequent repairs have only masked or compounded that failure thus the need to get to most basic running contidions.

I'm not working from my computer with thousands of files including schematics of your system thus cannot tell you the ground is not interrupted and part of some control function. You need spark and fuel plus the mechanical physics of a good engine to make this run. You must follow someone's directions that comprehends the basics involved rather than "I had that problem and it was this..." . I've not asked you to spend 10¢ except for tools if you didn't have, now you are out $100+ and no further along than 2 weeks ago. 1-2 hours max of proper diagnostic work should have solved this problem which diesn't include a wish list 10 pages long. Focus on solving this problem only then worry about other things.

You need some breathing room where you are not under so much pressure and overwhealmed with these circuits, hopefully you have not damaged anything else for it's never a good thing to smell wires getting hot. The fact that it stopped is not good news but 1 thing at a time. As a professional we can rejoice for it's easy to find burned wires and trace the failure, it's the open circuits that will drive us crazy and that's what you had at the begining of this fiasco.

Take care of baby and baby's moma, NEVER depend on a DSM as transportation for they will always let you down. There is a member who has 3 and he has learned to never drive more than 100 miles, "they are wonderful cars, just hard to get use to..." My son offered to give me his and I declined for a car is meant to be a slave to you rather than you to it.

I can't impress upon you enough to do the basics, forget conditional branching relays and circuits just get power to the pump (that means both + and -) to complete the circuit.

Keep us advised,
Cheers,
GTM

i bought a pump rewire kit. i think i still have the directions maybe i can scan them tommorrow.

highboostintsi said:

i bought a pump rewire kit. i think i still have the directions maybe i can scan them tommorrow.

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I/we appreciate your willingness to help but we are at post 67 for something that should have been solved by post 5. Rather than scan the rewire which Rusty~ has viewed from various sources it would be helpful if you could verify that the _ground_ does go to ground and not through some monotoring device or into the brain box.

Without meaning to be insulting read through all the replies and his responses to understand that he is working with too many helpful people who cannot draw the circuit much less understand it.

Again, please review the circuit and establish how the factory wired the ground circuit only. I will be happy to discuss this at length AFTER his car can be driven but please please please no more guessing.

Cheers,
GTM

I was wondering if i corrected the ground by taking the car end of the fuel pump plug and making it gound on rear ground bolt that i used for the new relay? I wonder if the initial idea of finding the ground wire under the radio would be the fix??

rustyoldsmoker said:

I was wondering if i corrected the ground by taking the car end of the fuel pump plug and making it gound on rear ground bolt that i used for the new relay? I wonder if the initial idea of finding the ground wire under the radio would be the fix??

Click to expand...

rusty~, I'm not going to second guess this any more. I've spent hours with your problem and trying to get you to follow basic directions. I have absolutely no idea what you have done and I am hesitant to tell you to cut the wires at the fuel tank since you take difficulty in connecting + and - to the fuel pump.

I have never seen a DSM fuel pump in my life time, as far as I'm concerned it glows in the dark. But if you put 12v+ and - on the proper terminals it spins or it does not. Don't ask me what radio station you were listining to.

I keep asking others to identify where the ground (-) goes for I can think of 20 circuits and ways of handeling them. You could test it but since you only got to that place this weekend I feel like I'm wasting my breath. IF YOU HAVE A PLUG OUTSIDE THE TANK UNPLUG IT, PUT 12V+ ON THE PUMP SIDE, PUT THE REMAINING CONNECTION HOPEFULLY NEGATIVE (-) ON THE OTHER AND START THE CAR. Before you had smoke and smelled burning this probably would have worked now we are worse off for who knows what you have done. I'm in California, want to bring it here I probably could fix it but I grow weary just getting basic info to you.

It's not my fault if every hero in the western hemisphere tells you how to sort out your problem. You can look at my bio and sort out if I'm blowing smoke up your back side, either put power and ground to the proper pump terminals or forget I was here.

I'm not here for your or anyone else's amusement, someplace on this board you will find someone else saying that combine any 3 Wisemen and they would not know the depth of my knowledge. There is an alternative to all this, pay a professional to make a house call. Maybe you can get others snookered into this revolving door but I'm done until you tell me the car is home and the baby's bottle is full. 68 posts to fix a fuel pump is nonsense.

In my previous post I put ? and I expect an answer but like so many other replies they are always avoided. To the best of my knowledge ALL your problems have been discussed and the answers are in this series. I'm so angry with you that I'm on the verge of asking a moderator to close this thread for it's going nowhere and I'm thinking something stinks. Perhaps it would be better if someone sent you a bill for all the professional advice that you have not taken. Never once did I say your pump was bad, never once did I say some relay was bad yet you have spent money needlesly because some unqualified twit told you it was so.

GTM

GTM said:

I keep asking others to identify where the ground (-) goes for I can think of 20 circuits and ways of handeling them. IF YOU HAVE A PLUG OUTSIDE THE TANK UNPLUG IT, PUT 12V+ ON THE PUMP SIDE, PUT THE REMAINING CONNECTION HOPEFULLY NEGATIVE (-) ON THE OTHER AND START THE CAR.

Click to expand...

Sorry, the ground is pretty simple.

The negative terminal of the pump runs to the mounting bracket. The bracket is grounded by the black wire from the harness running to a stud on the top. The black wire uses/runs to grounding point 9 under the liftgate latch to connect to the the body.

The positive for the pump runs from the Black/White wire in the harness to a insulated bolt to the wire going to the pump positive terminal. If you not carefull when changing the pump you can crack the insulator and short that bolt to ground. (sounds like Rusty did this but I can't tell) Normally if the power feed was shorted the ignition fuse would blow but with all this questionable rewiring going on I can't tell what connected to where.

Steve

For the followers of this post... Given you have the responsibility of posting what you want.. I am not twisting anyones arm.. I feel that the questions i asked were relavent and information i needed to know, as a NEWBIE, I think that this is what this forum is for.. I am sorry i can't answer everyones questions.. I guess i would also comment that I have basic knowledge of electrical work.. I believe i only asked question in my posts if i needed something.. i guess if someone could have only answered the questions rather then posting other data(which I found useful).. this could have been a different post.. Again, i appologize for the time spent and hourly efforts that all the "wise people" have spent.. But as a Dsmer i can't understand the way this works.. I am the one needing something here.. but people are using this post to talk to other people.. I was under the impression that using a PM could help people correct information..

No appologizing needed "Rustyoldsmoker" we are all here to help one another with problems that may occur among the DSM world, but we tend to get side tracked and get off the subject at times.

As for "GTM" we greatly thank you for all the help and knowledge you have supplied but over the past several post I do have to disagree with some of the "constructive criticisum".
I thought we was all here to help one another no matter what rank they are and how long it takes

Drifter27_04 said:

I thought we was all here to help one another no matter how long it takes

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I wouldn't count on that part. People help for various reasons but if they don't think their time is being valued they are going to move on to something else.

Steve

Drifter27_04 said:

...
and get off the subject at times.

As for "GTM" we greatly thank you for all the help and knowledge you have supplied but over the past several post I do have to disagree with some of the "constructive criticisum".
I thought we was all here to help one another no matter what rank they are and how long it takes

Click to expand...

Everyone is entitled to have an opinion but when they are not relevant they only confuse the issue. It is a misuse of the system and the resources which have made this one of the best boards on the Internet.

This is not the chat forum and it's not fair to those who are offering their life's work to have novice, shade tree, wannabe mechanics, offering suggestions which have nothing to do with the problem. However the poster doesn't know this and lets others loose focus and manipulate thread content which was to solve A problem rather than 10 unrelated. This thread has had some of the best minds contributing yet when basic disgnostic information is not heeded and it has become cluttered with nonsequeters people will loose interest.

You wouldn't go into a Doctor's office and pull this, so why here. My favorite saying is: there is little difference between what a Doctor does and what we as professionals do except our patients don't talk to us. The Doctor isn't going to put up with this and I see no reason why we should. It has not been the policy of this board and by now it should be abundently clear that this old dog wags his own tail. We are not here to keep repeating and repeating basic directions which are not answered or done. This ain't rocket science but it does require some discipline on the part of the poster which has not revealed it's self in this thread. We are NOT here to explain everything we know about a particular subject. And frankly many of the major players in this thread are quite tired of the nonsense and thread manipulation.

I will repeat for the last time this could have been solved in 5 posts had there been the focus of solving the problem. This is so counterproductive it's almost a joke and becoming ridiculed for basic steps are not being folowed though offered countless times. Now you want to come along and toss this crap out and give the poster a pat on the back for ignoring what has been said. We are not here for your amusement because you have nothing else better to do. We have led the poster by hand through every step necessary to get his car running, there has been no rank pulled.

If you know the subject then solve it.

If you think I or anyone else has abused the poster and not been incredibly patient then take it up with moderators and the owner. It is not my nature to be a SOB but enough is enough. I see nothing more to be learned or said and it's just inapproriate clutter.

Cheers,
GTM

I would like to thank all the Dsm Gods for helping me.. I have now gained running status. And as usual GTM was correct. Seems the old wiring is fine, which is the way i ended up going.. So runing power to the pump from the battery didn't work for me, as it melted wire every time i attempted to run. Once i removed all the abnormal rewiring gear, the car ran with the new 190 lph fuel pump..
The things i learned.
When fixing a problem, start with one part.. Once your sure its the problem, just replace that one part. Even though i thought i knew better, I was wrong. I would also carry a fire extinguisher if your going to mess with fuel wires. I almost lost her for a second time when i found that the insulation bolt that passes power through the fuel lid had totally burned up, like dust, and i had to put a connector in, I will be looking into a new insulating bolt as soon as i get the chance, right now i have a heat shrink butt connector in the slot where it should have an insulated bolt.
I can't thank you guys enough. THANK YOU DSMERS

rustyoldsmoker said:

I would like to thank all the Dsm Gods for helping me.. I have now gained running status. And as usual GTM was correct. Seems the old wiring is fine, which is the way i ended up going.. So runing power to the pump from the battery didn't work for me, as it melted wire every time i attempted to run.
...
The things i learned.
When fixing a problem, start with one part.. Once your sure its the problem, just replace that one part.

I can't thank you guys enough. THANK YOU DSMERS

Click to expand...

I don't think there are any gods around here though we do have some gurus. You are quite welcome, a pain _in_ the backside [ said somewhat affectionately] but nonetheless welcome. I don't know squat about DSMs which is why I had to ask for some help for specifics especially ground and clutch circuits.

I didn't mean to be rude at times more at frustration / exasperation. One of your last questions concerned getting a ground from behind the radio. This has been one of the most common mistakes DSM owner make. They see all those black wires or black with a white trace and thnk they are grounds. They are NOT, many are part of the warning advisory circuit and bulb check which incorporates a floating ground design. Depending on what it is or it's function it can be a ground flowing in one direction one moment and in another direction the next but still a conditional ground. Perhaps another way of thinking is less than positive but not a dead short to ground after a load. I didn't want to get into having you sort out that mess, plus it will cause nightmares, one moment one thing will give one warning or failure notice and the next it does something entirely different. I could write a chapter or so just reciting all those who have made this mistake.
.....................

I think the most important is to resist the temptation to make several changes at the same time for they just introduce more possibilities of something going wrong. Circuit trace one thing at a time until you are assured you know it by heart and understand it's function so you can explain it to others. If you feel a need to insert a relay for the new pump we can discuss it so you don't have a repeat of what ever went upside down. Steve may have been right about breaking or rotating the positive pump terminal so it was shorting internally for I've seen that happen with other Bosh type pumps.

You were wanting to make some mods to improve performance. Take what you learned here and do one at a time so you know each is not going to give problems and introduce 10 problem/symptoms that can stem from changing just 1 item. Allow your self time, assume something is going to give trouble, have backup transportation should something break. Try to learn in advance what can go wrong and all the symptoms when it does.

Glad it worked out for you, I didn't always get it right the first time either. You don't learn without making mistakes along the way, hopefully you don't repeat them too often. Do the easy ones first so you gain confidence in your abilities.

Cheers,
GTM