Any autocrosser's?

[90AWDTalon]

I went autocrossing for the first time with my Talon. I had gone about 6 times four years ago with a Honda Delsol Si. I ran Novice and CSP. I ran novice with the Talon and plan on staying there a few more times. I'm trying to figure out what class to run after that. I had planned on running open street, but I missunderstood the rules when I was thinking this. The guy that won that class had a turbo miata and was extreamly fast, he beat me by 12 seconds. I went and checked his car out and saw he had R compound DOT tires. I plan on using real streat tires, so this class is out. The other options are C modified and Street Tire. Modified class can runs any tire, I'm on street tires so not a good class for me. That leaves Street Tire, the problem with that is its indexed based on what class you would be in, that is C mod for me, this is the 3rd from the top on the index list . Means it'll be pretty much what ever time I run against everyone else's handicaped time's. My car is not set up for autocross, my turbo is whats putting me into modified. My suspension is stock right now, but I ordered springs and shocks last Friday, but its still not a race setup.

So I'm curious what class you guys run?
Is Street Tire going to be my best option? It'll be a long time before I buy autocross tires, if at all.

My main goal is just to have fun, but I'd like to be as competitive as possible.

 

[logic]

This is what turned me off about SCCA autocross; all the niggling about car setup and classifications based on mods. I found a local club that holds regular autocross events without any of the classification rules; everyone runs, and you're classified by the times you run, not by the mods. It's not incredibly competitive (until the final run, when the class groupings have been announced); just a really laid-back atmosphere to learn how to drive your car.

I'm sure I'll end up going to SCCA events when my skills have improved, but I'm more interested in driving right now than learning rules that are changed and "clarified" every year that dictate what I can and can't do to my car to stay in a particular class.

 

[GRNDSM]

This is my #1 gripe with SCCA!!! They care about every little mod on your car (which isn’t really all that important), but they do not recognize R-compound tires as giving you an advantage… That is plane stupid and there is not much you can do about it, other than trying out different clubs. Or race with SCCA and not be competitive…

I like to race with my local BMW CCA club, which has two different classes, one for street tire and one for R-compound tire.

Leon
RR

 

[turbohappy]

People complain about SCCA constantly, but I don't really understand the issue. You can go and be laid back and just have fun and learn (a lot of people do)...in this case what class you fall in doesn't really matter. Or you can get serious about it and mod your car for a class and try to be competitive. I don't see how you can not take mods into account and still have a competition, your time classification scheme just sounds weird to me (doesn't everyone sandbag?).

Everyone wants a ME class, a class specially designed for my mods and removing drivers that are better than me so that I can win. Kind of silly, you can't expect to win all the time, or ever for a while.

But seriously, you should run Street Mod. With a different turbo, you're in Street Mod or Modified, and Street Mod is going to be a LOT more up your alley. Yeah, it allows R tires, but a lot of people don't run them so you'll definitely have people to compete with. If you get serious, you'll want to get a set of R tires so you stop sliding around so much...makes it more fun IMO

BTW, I haven't autoxed in the Eclipse and don't plan to, I have an 89 CRX Si dedicated to autoxing.

 

[HokieDSM]

I've been autocrossing for about a year, although I haven't been able to do it in a couple months due to *cough* DSM issues *cough*.

The whole tire thing does kinda annoy me too - just that, at least in the club here, you can be in STOCK class but still run slicks, and of course that'll give you so much more of an advantage.

But if you're looking for the "me" class, you can always run in "Prepared" instead of Street Mod - I think AWD DSMs fit into C Prepared, which around here no one's ever in anyway - so it'd be like getting a class to yourself....

 

[loreak]

i used to race my 95 tsi awd occasionally in autox, i thought it was a blast, i just had boltons and street tires, there was a guy in a stock 97 tsi awd with r compound tires one time, he destroyed everyone, there was only one car that beat his time, and it was a z06 with race suspension r compound tires that was moded and had a pro driver, and he only beat him by 1 second, i was amazed

 

[GRNDSM]

>People complain about SCCA constantly, but I don't really understand the issue.

That is because you are not racing a turbo car . Seriously, SCCA HATES turbo cars, they do not know what to do about cars that can add 20-40% of more power with a simple tweak of a boost controller or “creative” exhaust work.

You can’t do this with Hondas, so it seems like a HUGE advantage to the very much NT based SCCA brass. Believe me, it is nowhere near as much of an advantage as switching to R-compound tires...

Take a well prepared ESP GSX on Hoosiers and compare it to the same car with bigger turbo and more boost (SM class), but on best street tires, both cars driven by the same driver. I am willing to bet that ESP car will come out ahead. But according to SCCA’s PAX system, it is rated lower.

That is my # 1 gripe with SCCA… And I don’t really understand how anyone can not understand this .

Leon
RR

 

[Trctnless]

""Take a well prepared ESP GSX on Hoosiers and compare it to the same car with bigger turbo and more boost (SM class), but on best street tires, both cars driven by the same driver. I am willing to bet that ESP car will come out ahead.""

Well DUh...tires are worth every bit of 1.5 seconds on course. You can't compare a cars competitivness between classes with DIFERENT TIRES on it.

" SCCA HATES turbo cars, they do not know what to do about cars that can add 20-40% of more power"

Yes they do.. That why they created STREET MODIFIED Class in 2001.

I copied the below from my post this morning under "What no drivers"

The SCCA Classing system works. (unless your undermodified or underskilled for the class you select, most peoples problems) I deliberatley put myself in a more competitive class to challenge myself and my car set up. Stop crying about tires and learn to drive or suck it up and buy some Voctoracers if you want trophies.

I primarily Autocross and my car is currently a State Championship contender in the most diverse open class in SCCA racing, SM = Street Modified. Just this weekend the car laid down 36.1 second laps to the WRX's, EVo's 37-40 second avg laptimes. I hit the fasted speed on course 64 (there was a radar gun) THe ONLY SUbie that was able to outrun me by just .04 seconds was a FP (F-prepared/gutted/vishnu tuned track prepped) car driven by a PRO driver. (Jerry is an incredible driver) Call it driver skill or car set up, however you can't argue with the clock. A FWD (stock Diff/still unswayed) being a 100th of a second off a 350 WHP FP WRX is unheard of but prooves that with enough SEAT TIME/and the right set up (tire preasures and all) A MODIFIED TURBO DSM = is more than competive in SCCA racing... its a class killer with the right driver.

AWD is very well suited for SCCA once you get the suspenstion sorted out. I would not recomend building a FWD DSM SCCA car, unless you like uphill battles for power and traction (have $$ for a Quaiffe) and have a firm understanding of handling dynamics. I got the PUSH tuned out of my car LONG ago. Now My car goes from perfelctly neutral to snap OVERSTEER (fun but innefective in getting fast lap times) with only 1/2 lb preasure differential in the rear tires. (Kumho 245/45/16 VictoRacer, set 43 front 36 rear.) I Chased my best friend (NC SM Champion) in his GSX for a year as I learned HOW to Drive my peg legged GST and set it up to catch him. Latley the only car to beat both Kent, Jenny and I has been the BMW M3m which I have to give props to as those cars just plain KICK ASS>

Keep in mind, Road Racing & Autoxing (especially) require alot of focus and a well honed (instructed) driver. IT's 90% the NUT behind the wheel that needs to be adjusted. I'm very dedicated to campaigning my car and disprooving myths and smack talk about FWD DSM in the racing community. Not to mention I love to see my girlfriend sending Subie owners home to lick thier wounds. MUahahaha! Above all I have HAD FUN and kept it on the level. Which has enabled me to befriend/meet the sort people that could help me set myself and my car up for success.

From what i've seen and experienced is all a matter of dedication. Obsese yourself with Championship Winning goals and you won't even remember the days of squabling over mods and tire selection.

 

[turbohappy]

Originally posted by GRNDSM
Take a well prepared ESP GSX on Hoosiers and compare it to the same car with bigger turbo and more boost (SM class), but on best street tires, both cars driven by the same driver. I am willing to bet that ESP car will come out ahead. But according to SCCA’s PAX system, it is rated lower.

I find this a ridiculous statement, as the ESP car could legally run in SM. Even if you forget the possibility of more power, the SM car should be significantly faster just from the weight reduction possibilities. If the SM car can't beat the ESP car it's through poor driving & prep, nothing to do with classing. If you want to be competitive, you can be (unless you're a bad driver), if you want to have fun, you can. I really don't see the big issue.

 

[4pistons]

your time classification scheme just sounds weird to me (doesn't everyone sandbag?).

It's like bracket racing. You make several runs and use the fastest time, in your time class, for the final. You can't be faster than your best time by more than a second or you're disqualified. You'd have to be a damn good driver to be able to control that on a 50-60 second run.

I ran an SCCA event a few years ago and because my GSX is pretty stock-appearing I was put in a stock street tire class (don't remember which one) even though I had quite a few mods. The tech guy didn't ask me much and I wasn't aware of all the rules so I just went where they told me. One of the competitors in the class started quizzing me on my mods and after he learned what was done he had a hissy fit to the judges and got all mad at me. Needless to say it wasn't the best racing experience for me and I'm much happier running the "bracket race' style where any cars with any mods can run right with you.

Run what 'ya brung is the motto for drag racing and it holds true for autocross too!

Rick -' 91 GSX

 

[GRNDSM]

>Well DUh...tires are worth every bit of 1.5 seconds on course. You
>can't compare a cars competitivness between classes with DIFERENT
>TIRES on it
But SCCA DOES compare the cars with different tires (same pax). So I guess you agree with me?

>I find this a ridiculous statement

I do not think that you understood my statement?

>as the ESP car could legally run in SM.

Right? But that NOT what I am saying? My point is that ESP car on race tires will beat SM car on street tires. Showing that tires are more important than a few extra mods. But SCCA?s PAX system would suggest otherwise.

>Even if you forget the possibility of more power, the SM car should be
>significantly faster just from the weight reduction possibilities.

SM class does not allow too much weight reduction, it must still be a street car complete with both bumpers?

>if you want to have fun, you can. I really don't see the big issue.

I do want to have fun, but I am a very competitive person by nature. One of the best ways of making sure that you are staying competitive is using Hoosier tires which end up almmost 2x more expensive than to use than any other brand (high initial cost and high wear characteristics). Unfortunately, SCCA would pair someone with Hoosiers in the same class as someone with your favorite street tire. That takes the fun out of SCCA autox for me?

Solution? BMW CCA uses the same Pax structure, but they also divide each class into street tire and ?R-compound? tire classes.

Leon
RR

 

[HokieDSM]

Originally posted by GRNDSM

Solution? BMW CCA uses the same Pax structure, but they also divide each class into street tire and ?R-compound? tire classes.

Leon
RR

Leon has it right. This is exactly what the SCCA should do, it's a foregone conclusion why they don't. The last local event, the difference was telling - any somewhat decent driver on R-comps was pulling sub 50sec runs on the course, while those on street tires were CONSISTENTLY 2-3 seconds slower, -regardless- of class.

Certainly the existing PAX system does a great job of compensating for modifications and mechanical differences between cars, but to make it what it's supposed to be (a true measure of the driver's ability), they need to take the tires out of the equation.

-Cliff

 

[90AWDTalon]

I went autocrossing again today. I did much better than last time, I got a trophy for getting 5th in novice. Last time I was 14 seconds behing the fastest drivers. This time I was only 7.5 seconds behind the fastest times. Part of this was because the course was alot faster so my lag didn't penalize me as much, and hopefully part was do to me doing better.

I reread the rule book and for street tire I use the SCCA street mod index. I previously thought I had to use C modified. My index is still going to be higher than everyone else, who are already faster on strait time than I am, but it's much much closer to every one else's index. I still don't know if I'll be competitive, but with enough pratice and a couple more mods I might be able to beat some people. This was all for a non SCCA Club, they just use the SCCA idex's.

I think I'm still screwed for SCCA though, there doesn't appear to be a street tire class that I qualify for. So I'll be in street mod which allows almost anything to be done including any tire. I don't know how much SCCA I'll anyway though, all the events for SCCA are held about 100 miles from my house.

 

[B2119]

Tires will make a big difference with a bad driver. If you know how to drive, you can win on street tires vs. people with r compound tires. my dad in a completley stock Mini Cooper S beat about 8 people with r compound tires, just because he can drive. the pax system theoretically says that a toyota 4runner could get as good of a time as a race prepped z06 corvette. but it does not take into consideration your specific mods. and why should it. that would take too much time which would mean less runs. so if you learn to drive it wont matter. although i do like how BMW cca has an r compound tires class. and around here you get twice as many runs as the scca ones.

 

[GRNDSM]

>Mini Cooper S beat about 8 people with r compound tires, just because
>he can drive...

...AND because people with r compound tires can not drive. Lets see how your dad would compare to a national champ level driver on r compound tires.

If you are saying that tires do not make much difference for high level drivers, you are plane wrong! If anything, a really bad driver might not be able to take advantage of extra grip. A good driver will ALWAYS be able to shave down this times if given better tires!

Leon
RR

 

[90AWDTalon]

Originally posted by B2119
Tires will make a big difference with a bad driver. If you know how to drive, you can win on street tires vs. people with r compound tires. my dad in a completley stock Mini Cooper S beat about 8 people with r compound tires, just because he can drive. the pax system theoretically says that a toyota 4runner could get as good of a time as a race prepped z06 corvette. but it does not take into consideration your specific mods. and why should it. that would take too much time which would mean less runs. so if you learn to drive it wont matter. although i do like how BMW cca has an r compound tires class. and around here you get twice as many runs as the scca ones.

I call BS. At the event I went to on last Sunday, only two out of the top fifty times where on street tires. The top time was 40.154 in an S2000. The top street tire was the 35th fastest time with a 42.445, no car listed but he used the A stock index. The next fastest street tire was the 49th fastest time with a 43.354 in an Imprezza using the D street preprared index. All the top street tire cars used Falken Azenis tires, which have a reputation for being near R-compound. There where 144 total entrants of which at least 57 cars where on street tires.

Here's a link to the results. http://www.wwscc.org/event_results/2003/scsresults.html

 

[turbohappy]

Do you want to know why? People with a lot of seat time (fast drivers) truly enjoy auto-xing and do it often and therefore have R-tires if they are in a class that allows it. It's _mostly_ newbs that have street tires (except in STS/STX).

 

[B2119]

I am sorry, i meant to say he was on street tires. If you dont believe me go to rmsolo.net and look at the results for 8/02 and 8/03 events. My dad was in g stock.

 

[GRNDSM]

Originally posted by B2119
I am sorry, i meant to say he was on street tires. If you dont believe me go to rmsolo.net and look at the results for 8/02 and 8/03 events. My dad was in g stock.

, I didn't even notice that you said you mistakenly said r-compound . My reply was as if you said street tires and I still stand by it!

That means is that the other drivers were really bad…

Leon
RR

 

[90AWDTalon]

Originally posted by B2119
I am sorry, i meant to say he was on street tires. If you dont believe me go to rmsolo.net and look at the results for 8/02 and 8/03 events. My dad was in g stock.

How about provideing a working link? And if your dad really beat 8 people useing R-compound while on street tires, how many cars on R-compound beat him?

 

[90AWDTalon]

I went again today, it was raining and I did really good. I think I'm faster in the wet than dry. I was spinning tire the whole time, but was able stay some what in control. I also found a cure for my turbo lag, rain. Because of all the wheel spin, I had no problems spooling up. I had better times than alot of the pros. Unfortunatly it was just a practice event so there was no trofie's. I would have gotten second in novice, and that was with a one second penalty for hitting a cone. If I didn't hit the cone I would have had the best novice time, and had one the top ten times overall. I'm going to do a rain dance before every event now.