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Road Course & Autocross: Autocross, Road Race, and Open Track Event discussions. Preparation, technique, tips, and stories from the events. Tell us about your last event.

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Old 02-27-2008, 11:53 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #1 (permalink)
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1G Road Racing Weaknesses


I want to build my car to compete in road racing. I've been dooing alot of research lately trying to get as much info as possible so I can plan the build of my car. I've been having a hard time finding a clear answer on some of the downsides of the 1g's design. I am NOT talking about anything that has to do with the engine ( theres tons of facts as well as opinions on that ), but I am interested in finding out the weak points of the other areas of the car.

Here's what I have so far:

- The chassis flexes alot and needs to be made more rigid. Obviously a roll cage is a good way to correct this as well as strut braces. I've also read that there is a type of foam or epoxy or something that can be injected into the chasis to stiffen it up (I've read a few threads on this and am still debating whether or not its worth it. maybe someone who's had experiance with it can comment.)

- The 2g suspension is a better design than the 1g. I'm not sure exactly what makes it better (still have alot to learn about suspension). Is it that the 1g's suspension is a bad design, or is it just not as good as the 2g's?

- The open differential in the front kills us with understeer. A Quafe differential solves that, but I'd like to know what your guys opinion is on changing the center differential as well.

- The 1GA's have those puny mickey mouse brakes in the front (mine are already changed to 3000gt's)

- The car is a pig by nature, weight is a problem.


Is there anything else that you guys can come up with? I'm hoping for all the road racers to share there personal experiance in this. What have you guys noticed are the weaknesses of a 1g car for road racing?


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Old 02-28-2008, 12:29 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #2 (permalink)
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I'll chime in first and add a few things.

1. The 1g and 2g chassis' are weak and have quite a bit of flex, like you said a rollcage is a pretty good way to help this. Not too much data on foam filling though.

2. 1g suspension is a McPherson setup which is crappy. 2g's get double wishbone, which is the best suspension a car can have (look at F1 cars, this is basically what they use). McPherson CAN work well though, but the geometry is inferior to others. Both the 1g and 2g obviously are undersprung and underdamped from the factory. Besides stiffer shocks/springs and swaybars (add a rear only first, then add a front if you still need it), the stock bushings are very weak and should be changed out for a full urethane kit (energy suspension or Prothane).

3. Very few people upgrade the diffs on AWD DSMs especially for road racing. More for Auto-x. Road racing speeds are high enough that you won't be spinning the inside tire that bad. That said, a Torsen type like the Quaife WILL improve power-on grip, but will hurt you when off-power. The LSD doesn't spin freely when off power. Not much info on changing the center diff out on AWD DSMs.

4/5. Looks like you got that covered and what you need to do. In fact, looks like you got most of this pretty well researched.

Obviously cooling issues are a problem too (remove your A/C at least, bigger radiator, better ducting, avoid a FMIC if possible or get one that flows through itself well) but we're talking suspension-only issues. 1g's also have the active toe which should be eliminated. If you do all this, along with the obvious things like wider wheels and tires, camber settings, etc you'll have a hell of a car.


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Old 02-28-2008, 12:56 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #3 (permalink)
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Remember to build the car for the class you plan to compete in! Id hate to see you mod the car enough it moved you up to the top competing against race trim Corvettes....


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Old 02-28-2008, 09:29 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #4 (permalink)
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I would suggest upgrading the oil cooler on the 91-94 1G. Excessive oil temps can hinder performance and contribute to engine wear. There are a few companies out there that offer FMOC kits, here's an example: Automoto Sports Copyright&copy AMS 2006

Best of luck with your new venture!
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Old 02-28-2008, 09:38 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #5 (permalink)
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I don’t mean to burst your bubble, but I would strongly recommend learning auto-X prior to stepping into the FULL open track days. I don’t really know your history with racing, but auto-x should be the first step before open track days.


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Old 02-28-2008, 09:44 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E Racer X View Post
I would suggest upgrading the oil cooler on the 91-94 1G. Excessive oil temps can hinder performance and contribute to engine wear. There are a few companies out there that offer FMOC kits, here's an example: Automoto Sports Copyright&copy AMS 2006

Best of luck with your new venture!

What about for a 7 bolt???


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Old 02-28-2008, 10:02 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #7 (permalink)
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by talonTSIDriver View Post
I don’t mean to burst your bubble, but I would strongly recommend learning auto-X prior to stepping into the FULL open track days. I don’t really know your history with racing, but auto-x should be the first step before open track days.
Good point there Andy. Not only the experience, but the cost factor as well. $20 usually for AutoX. Most open track days are around $200 and up from my experiences.

And for the 7 bolt, couldnt you just get that kit (minus '90 housing & the $70) and get an Evo oil housing? Isnt that the one you use for the 7 bolt? I could have swore I read that somewhere. Could be wrong there though. Andy, you would know better than I on that issue I'm sure.


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Old 02-28-2008, 10:09 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsiboosted View Post
Good point there Andy. Not only the experience, but the cost factor as well. $20 usually for AutoX. Most open track days are around $200 and up from my experiences.

And for the 7 bolt, couldnt you just get that kit (minus '90 housing & the $70) and get an Evo oil housing? Isnt that the one you use for the 7 bolt? I could have swore I read that somewhere. Could be wrong there though. Andy, you would know better than I on that issue I'm sure.
you may be right on the oil cooler for a 7 bolt. I'll be reading in on it.

neoviper: what sort of experience do you have with road-racing?


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Old 02-28-2008, 10:10 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #9 (permalink)
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The 1G suspension has some advantages over the 2G and vice versa. For example, it easier and quicker to change spring rates in a 1G and it can withstand much more abuse (rally racing). The 2G suspension, however, has greater potential for pure asphalt racing.

Almost all cars need bigger brakes when road racing and the DSM is no exception. The cool thing is that you have numerous options.

My most difficult issue road racing a 1G is the fuel pickup problem. On high G left handers, the fuel moves to the right inside the tank while the fuel pump (installed on the left) runs dry. There are ways to minimize the problem but to fully cure it requires some mods and a bit of money. Just something to keep in mind if you experience fuel cut once you are on some grippy tires.
I don't know if the 2G experiences this issue.

Both cars have the crankshaft on the driver's side (worst side) and in front of the axle line (worst end) so the weight distribution is horrible...you can alleviate some of this problem but it will always be there in some aspect.

But I digress...I personally like racing a 1G but I have never had the pleasure of owning a 2G so I cant speak on it.

Oh, one more thing...
IMO, race only what you can afford to destroy


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Old 02-28-2008, 10:14 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #10 (permalink)
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave532 View Post
My most difficult issue road racing a 1G is the fuel pickup problem. On high G left handers, the fuel moves to the right inside the tank while the fuel pump (installed on the left) runs dry. There are ways to minimize the problem but to fully cure it requires some mods and a bit of money. Just something to keep in mind if you experience fuel cut once you are on some grippy tires.

I don't know if the 2G experiences this issue.

Oh, one more thing...
IMO, race only what you can afford to destroy
Yes, the 2G's have that same issue as well. Only solution (real solution) is of course a fuel cell. But they cost a pretty penny. Other solution is obviously some foam in the tank (which may or may not be legal) and a surge tank with another pump. I personally right now have to run a full, or close to full tank to keep this from happeneing after 20 minutes or so on the course. Which is a lot of excess weight to be hauling around for almost no reason.

And I like your "Race only what you can afford to destroy quote".


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Old 02-28-2008, 10:18 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by talonTSIDriver View Post
I donít mean to burst your bubble, but I would strongly recommend learning auto-X prior to stepping into the FULL open track days. I donít really know your history with racing, but auto-x should be the first step before open track days.
Your not bursting my bubble, your absolutely right. I'm gonna be moving to georgia in a few months and my cousin who lives there says they run a ton of auto-x events over there. I'm planning on running alot of those to get my feet wet. I also plan on getting some seat time in some HPDE events. I was just trying to get an idea of some of the flaws in the cars design so I had a better idea of what kind of work I had to do. Thanx for all the advice!

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Old 02-28-2008, 10:20 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #12 (permalink)
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neoviper: what sort of experience do you have with road-racing?
Im as green as they come. I've just read up on it alot.

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Old 02-28-2008, 10:26 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave532 View Post
Just something to keep in mind if you experience fuel cut once you are on some grippy tires.
Fuel Cut is not caused by low fuel pressure, its caused by the ECU reading too much air coming through the MAF and then cuts the fuel as a safety precaution to the engine.

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Im as green as they come. I've just read up on it alot.
Reading a lot will help a lot. Another thing that helps a lot is practice (AKA SEAT TIME)


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Old 02-28-2008, 10:27 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #14 (permalink)
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Not to jack this thread...

Eddie, I have an idea you can try that is cheap and relatively
easy which will allow you to keep less fuel in the tank. I will PM you.


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Old 02-28-2008, 10:33 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
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I donít mean to burst your bubble, but I would strongly recommend learning auto-X prior to stepping into the FULL open track days. I donít really know your history with racing, but auto-x should be the first step before open track days.
I politely disagree. I believe you should try a track day and go out with an instructor and take it easy, learn the car and proper approaches and procedures. I've never participated in an auto-cross with my Galant but I have been to the road course.

Quote:
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What about for a 7 bolt???
That's a great question. As far as I know you need the oil filter housing from an EVO III for it to work with a 7-bolt DSM 4G63. I believe those are very hard to come by.
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Old 02-28-2008, 10:36 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E Racer X View Post
I politely disagree. I believe you should try a track day and go out with an instructor and take it easy, learn the car and proper approaches and procedures. I've never participated in an auto-cross with my Galant but I have been to the road course.
I'd be more concerned about the money factor. For the price of one lapping day at a big track, you could attend an entire season of auto-x events. This sport is already expensive, money management is crucial. If money was truly not an issue, then Iíd say, sure, why not go out and learn on a large road course, just as long as you learn the right way (like you said, ride with an instructor).


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Old 02-28-2008, 10:37 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #17 (permalink)
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by E Racer X View Post
That's a great question. As far as I know you need the oil filter housing from an EVO III for it to work with a 7-bolt DSM 4G63. I believe those are very hard to come by.
I believe that is the one I was referring to. Thanks.

Thanks Dave532.


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Old 02-28-2008, 10:38 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #18 (permalink)
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[QUOTE=E Racer X;151420335]I would suggest upgrading the oil cooler on the 91-94 1G. QUOTE]

I have a 90 so my OC is already externaly mounted.

Besides it interfering with the airflow through the radiator a little bit , do you guys think it will suffice for now? Its going to be a little bit before I hit up an open track day, so excessive temps won't be as much of an issue.

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Old 02-28-2008, 10:41 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave532 View Post
My most difficult issue road racing a 1G is the fuel pickup problem. On high G left handers, the fuel moves to the right inside the tank while the fuel pump (installed on the left) runs dry. There are ways to minimize the problem but to fully cure it requires some mods and a bit of money. Just something to keep in mind if you experience fuel cut once you are on some grippy tires.
I don't know if the 2G experiences this issue.
A great way to combat this would be a fuel surge tank. You can modify the fuel sending unit and utilize your in-tank pump while running an inline Walbro 255 lph. The 2G gas tank is designed and positioned more thoughtfully than the 1G but it can produce the same starving issues. I think a surge tank would be a great option for either generation. You can run less fuel (lighter vehicle) and avoid fuel starvation.
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Old 02-28-2008, 10:43 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E Racer X View Post
A great way to combat this would be a fuel surge tank. You can modify the fuel sending unit and utilize your in-tank pump while running an inline Walbro 255 lph. The 2G gas tank is designed and positioned more thoughtfully than the 1G but it can produce the same starving issues. I think a surge tank would be a great option for either generation. You can run less fuel (lighter vehicle) and avoid fuel starvation.

save money, run a full tank.


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