1G Road Racing Weaknesses

[tsiboosted]

Thank you.

I had no intentions of this thread starting an arguement like that, But I do appreciate everyones opinions and advice. Your right Tsiboosted, I just finished freshening up my stock setup. I was planning on maxing out my cars potential with its stock power (ok maybe a little increase in boost, but its still a stock car), before doing anything with the engine. I want to be able to feel the difference that different mods have on my car and in order to do that I need to know what it's limits are. That was a big reason for me starting this thread.

Anytime...Yeah, I see where you are coming from and what you are trying to accomplish with that. Like I already said, I believe your best bet is to start with the suspension and go from there. It will really tighten the car up and see what you have to work with at the same time. Just something to try and get your starated with is all I am stating with that. But tires and suspension to me, are the most important ingredients to a winning road course car.

 

[Zero Bar]

I would really talk to the Tech and Safety people with your local racing body on something like the foam filling. If it has any type of flammability it's very likely they will not allow it as it can be trouble enough with the fuel and other liquids in the car in the event of a wreck.

Though I don't know what your entire intentions for the car, a roll bar or full cage is the simplest, safest, and most proven way to stiffen your chassis and there's no guess work in it. Also, if you install a cage things like those bars pictured above won't be neccessary. I don't have a rear strut tower bar and don't need one because my rollbar works well enough. A bolt in 4-point rollbar can likely be had for a few hundred $$ and a little more maybe for a welded in bar.

 

[tsiboosted]

I would really talk to the Tech and Safety people with your local racing body on something like the foam filling. If it has any type of flammability it's very likely they will not allow it as it can be trouble enough with the fuel and other liquids in the car in the event of a wreck.

Though I don't know what your entire intentions for the car, a roll bar or full cage is the simplest, safest, and most proven way to stiffen your chassis and there's no guess work in it. Also, if you install a cage things like those bars pictured above won't be neccessary. I don't have a rear strut tower bar and don't need one because my rollbar works well enough. A bolt in 4-point rollbar can likely be had for a few hundred $$ and a little more maybe for a welded in bar.

That is all true there. He was saying he cant spend a lot so a proper cage to me would be out of the question on a man with a budget right now. If there is no local person that can make one, the 4 point bar I started with from AutoPower was $450 or so without shipping. Strut bars can be had for $100, which in his case (financial wise) may be in his best interest. Or he can just wait and save up the funds and go with the cage.

With my full cage; when it goes in, will also have a rear strut bar brace welded into the car. But that is off topic all together for this thread. I was just throwing ideas out with its original intent of cost effectiveness with his "limited" budget. I was not saying one was better than the other. Obviously a cage is the best, no one was arguing that point.

 

[turboAWDfanatic]

+1 on eliminating the active rear toe on the 1G. Do a search on it. You can have it done for around $300 at most places. Makes a HUGE difference in handling and predictability. Also, if you lower your car, be sure to correct the tie rod angle. A lot of people ignore this.

And a side note on seat time and AutoX: I'm not sure about other regions, but here in SoCal we have "practice days" (usually held the day before competition). They're more expensive (around $60-$75), but you get tons of seat time and you can have passengers ride with you, instructors or not. I've gotten several runs in on the practice days that I've been to. Best way to get a lot of affordable seat time.

 

[underradar92]

My unscientific opinion on the foam: I like the idea for a semi-street car but it'll likely become less useful as the cage gets more elaborate. The other flammable stuff in the car (interior panels) will lose significance at the same point. That said, I may do it to my ride when I get to the seam welding level of chassis prep, since this thing will always be a partial daily driver as in, no gutting of the interior. It's not a race car nor I a race driver.

This has been said many times: The most effective route to faster lap times is seat time. Seat time will also show what needs to be improved on the car.

"Toe eliminators" along with eliminating the plethora of rubber mounts on seemingly EVERYTHING goes a long way towards a better handling 1g. Most of my remaining ideas are covered by everyone else. Good work guys.

Now get out there and drive!

 

[Zero Bar]

That is all true there. He was saying he cant spend a lot so a proper cage to me would be out of the question on a man with a budget right now. If there is no local person that can make one, the 4 point bar I started with from AutoPower was $450 or so without shipping. Strut bars can be had for $100, which in his case (financial wise) may be in his best interest. Or he can just wait and save up the funds and go with the cage.

With my full cage; when it goes in, will also have a rear strut bar brace welded into the car. But that is off topic all together for this thread. I was just throwing ideas out with its original intent of cost effectiveness with his "limited" budget. I was not saying one was better than the other. Obviously a cage is the best, no one was arguing that point.

Not trying to argue, just my opinion on this if your going to seriously race the car like he said he plans.

I can't believe those bolt-in bars cost that much!! My bar is welded in and cost only $480 installed by a shop. Now that may be a really good deal but I'm sure you could get a 4 point welded in(if your willing to get that serious obviously) for $500 or so. The shop that installed my seat gave me an estimate for a full cage(which removes my current bar because of the design) for around $850-$900.

 

[tsiboosted]

Not trying to argue, just my opinion on this if your going to seriously race the car like he said he plans.

I can't believe those bolt-in bars cost that much!! My bar is welded in and cost only $480 installed by a shop. Now that may be a really good deal but I'm sure you could get a 4 point welded in(if your willing to get that serious obviously) for $500 or so. The shop that installed my seat gave me an estimate for a full cage(which removes my current bar because of the design) for around $850-$900.

My bar I started with is welded in for $450. Later this year I am adding the rest of the cage and it is only going to cost $300. So I will have a full cage for $750. I didn't think that was bad at all. And I knew you were not trying to argue, I know what you meant there. And I agree with you 100% on the cage issue if he does in fact to race it seriously.

 

[KGB Pilot125]

I have always heard 100 bucks a point. Is that pretty close to accurate?

 

[Ludachris]

It sounds like the price for custom roll bars/cages varies greatly in different areas. Around here it's about $800 or so for a 4-6 point roll bar. A full race-legal cage with NASCAR door bars would probably be in the $1200 range from the few places I know of around here. Out in California I remember hearing quotes being much more expensive than that.

 

[tsiboosted]

I have always heard 100 bucks a point. Is that pretty close to accurate?

I personally have never heard of that. But I knew through IO Port Racing Supplies, you can get the cage show below for $773.90. This is pretty much a full cage that can either be fitted as a bolt in or weld in cage per your request. This is what I am going with later this summer. I already have a modified 4 point bar in there now. So to add the front portion of the cage is only going to cost me $300.

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[Zero Bar]

Chris, that sounds about right even here for something along the lines of a 6 point with door bars. Not going with door bars will save some money and is something I've been debating with myself as I don't want 1lb more than I have to have in the car with it being so underpowered.

 

[KGB Pilot125]

Chris, that sounds about right even here for something along the lines of a 6 point with door bars. Not going with door bars will save some money and is something I've been debating with myself as I don't want 1lb more than I have to have in the car with it being so underpowered.

Here is something I have pondered... Taking out the door braces (supoosedly 20 pounds per side) or replacing the doors with Carbon ones and then going the door bar route. I just wonder if it would be as safe or possibly safer with the cage? And if you did do the carbon doors with the door bars you could actually cut away some of the door panel and extend the door bars out into the door for a little extra protection?

 

[KGB Pilot125]

It sounds like the price for custom roll bars/cages varies greatly in different areas. Around here it's about $800 or so for a 4-6 point roll bar. A full race-legal cage with NASCAR door bars would probably be in the $1200 range from the few places I know of around here. Out in California I remember hearing quotes being much more expensive than that.

Should have added it was when I lived in Boise and it was for mild steel.

 

[Zero Bar]

Here is something I have pondered... Taking out the door braces (supoosedly 20 pounds per side) or replacing the doors with Carbon ones and then going the door bar route. I just wonder if it would be as safe or possibly safer with the cage? And if you did do the carbon doors with the door bars you could actually cut away some of the door panel and extend the door bars out into the door for a little extra protection?

That's how a lot of cars are setup, the doors are gutted and the door bars are put in slightly protruding into them. At that point CF door panels would be great as the outer shell offers no protection anyway but in a racing series I wouldn't as the first incident you have and those pricey doors are FUBAR!!!

 

[Slow old poop]

I am getting into this discussion late, but--as I recall-- the original question was, more or less, how to get started in road racing. Here's how:

1. Make your car RELIABLE. Fix and upgrade everything, but leave the motor STOCK and do not mod the car. You want a car that you can drive to the track, run all weekend, and drive home again, without spending all weekend fixing things.

2. Run stock brakes. Carry a spare set of rotors ($20 each at Autozone), buy a set of race pads (I like Carbotechs) that you put in on race day, and put in good brake fluid (Motul, etc.)

3. Buy a spare set of wheels and race tires (Toyo RA-1s are great--they will last you a full season). You do not want to run on street tires because they get hot and greasy and never recover.

4. Get as much seat time as possible. Spend all your discretionary income on entry fees for HPDEs and travel expenses. Seat time will give you a much better ROI than mods. Get instruction whenever you can. Learn how to BRAKE properly.

5. Run stock in HPDEs for a full season, and then think about going racing. You will have a much better perspective on what to do with your car.

Autocrossing? Hmph! In autocrossing, you wait 2-3 hours to get a 1-minute run in 1st and 2nd gear on cold tires and cold brakes. There is no relation between road racing and autocrossing, other than they are both done in cars. You will learn nothing. Road racing is all about smoothness and consistency and taking corners at 100+ and learning a track and getting 180+ minutes of seat time in a weekend. Autocrossing is extremely violent, requires you to run around pylons in a slalom at very low speeds and encounter the kinds of sharp little turns you will never see on a race track, and you get 2-3 minutes of seat time per day. (This is not to criticize autocrossers. Autocrossing is a very specialized sport, and them what do it well are to be admired. I can't beat them at their game. Them dudes are good!)

In other words, don't worry about brakes, foam filling, roll cages, suspension uprades and all that expensive stuff until you have a full year of track time under your belt in a stock car.

 

[Ludachris]

I am getting into this discussion late, but--as I recall-- the original question was, more or less, how to get started in road racing. Here's how:

1. Make your car RELIABLE. Fix and upgrade everything, but leave the motor STOCK and do not mod the car. You want a car that you can drive to the track, run all weekend, and drive home again, without spending all weekend fixing things.

2. Run stock brakes. Carry a spare set of rotors ($20 each at Autozone), buy a set of race pads (I like Carbotechs) that you put in on race day, and put in good brake fluid (Motul, etc.)

3. Buy a spare set of wheels and race tires (Toyo RA-1s are great--they will last you a full season). You do not want to run on street tires because they get hot and greasy and never recover.

4. Get as much seat time as possible. Spend all your discretionary income on entry fees for HPDEs and travel expenses. Seat time will give you a much better ROI than mods. Get instruction whenever you can. Learn how to BRAKE properly.

5. Run stock in HPDEs for a full season, and then think about going racing. You will have a much better perspective on what to do with your car.

Autocrossing? Hmph! In autocrossing, you wait 2-3 hours to get a 1-minute run in 1st and 2nd gear on cold tires and cold brakes. There is no relation between road racing and autocrossing, other than they are both done in cars. You will learn nothing. Road racing is all about smoothness and consistency and taking corners at 100+ and learning a track and getting 180+ minutes of seat time in a weekend. Autocrossing is extremely violent, requires you to run around pylons in a slalom at very low speeds and encounter the kinds of sharp little turns you will never see on a race track, and you get 2-3 minutes of seat time per day. (This is not to criticize autocrossers. Autocrossing is a very specialized sport, and them what do it well are to be admired. I can't beat them at their game. Them dudes are good!)

In other words, don't worry about brakes, foam filling, roll cages, suspension uprades and all that expensive stuff until you have a full year of track time under your belt in a stock car.

This is a good reply to how to get started in road racing. But I think this discussion was more about finding the weaknesses of the 1G in relation to road racing. What needs to be improved upon on a 1G platform for it to be competitive and a solid road race car? That's the real discussion.

 

[Zero Bar]

There is no relation between road racing and autocrossing, other than they are both done in cars. You will learn nothing. Road racing is all about smoothness and consistency and taking corners

I respectfully disagree, though your advice is most sound and correct about road racing. Though the speed difference is vast autocross will teach you a ton about driving and can give you a great sense of yourself in the car(aka butt meter) and the line is vastly more important as milliseconds count in autocross and it's much easier to lose them with the severity and number of turns. Smoothness and consistency are quintessential in autocross. Though the sports are different in many ways the same techniques and physics apply.

Back on topic: Slow old poop is right about the car, leave it stock, maybe only do safety systems for it and get seat time on. The less done to your car the less there is to break!!

 

[Slow old poop]

This is a good reply to how to get started in road racing. But I think this discussion was more about finding the weaknesses of the 1G in relation to road racing. What needs to be improved upon on a 1G platform for it to be competitive and a solid road race car? That's the real discussion.

In that case, the answer is: Spend lots of money.

All seriousness aside, spendng a year running HPDEs, getting seat time, and checking out the competition in the region will go a long way toward determining what class and organization he wants to run with, and that will determine what mods he will be allowed to make.

Let's say, for example, that he wants to run NASA class TTB. The rules will determine what mods he can make in terms of brakes, suspension and engine mods, because the points for each mod add up. In TTB, he can make fewer mods than if he was running TTA, TTS or TTU.

So it's not a matter of what he CAN do to mod the car, it's a matter of what he will be ALLOWED to do under the rules. In rallying, we'd call this a recce.

 

[drivemusicnow]

I guess I'll put my own two cents in here.

1g weaknesses:
Age
Heat
Age+heat
Age + heat + lack of maintenance
Brakes, tires,

If I were doing this all over again, here is what I would do:

Pick up a cheap 1g dsm. Spend some time beating on it, doing basic maintenance, and getting familiar with the car. I define basic maintenance as timing belt, fluids, vacuum lines, brakes, etc.

Once you have a perfect condition stock car that you're familiar with, purchase some spare/track parts. Brake pads, rotors, wheels and tires specifically for the track. Common spares such as alternators, battery, spark plugs, coil pack/resistor, etc.

Once you're at this point, go to the track. You won't be flying past corvettes, but you'll have a great time and after a few trips, you'll probably realize which direction you want to go.

This is when you start planning for a class. ASSuming that you go with the NASA HPDE/PT-TT/PT racing, you should determine a budget, then do a LOT of research. Basically you need to come up with the highest class that you can be competitive in with your budget.

Also, NEVER buy parts that won't support you at the highest level of racing. It's pointless. you spend more money then you should because you end up buying parts twice.

To make a 1g AWD track competent (just from a vehicle standpoint) your money should be invested into wheels and tires, brakes, getting the most power out of the stock motor, suspension, reducing weight, adding more power, and then finally aero.

One more thing, ANY TIME you replace something, (and I MEAN anytime) you need to A) make sure it's the best part for your needs B) install it using the best method possible (including safety wiring, loctite, lock nuts, lock washers, etc) and C) check all the other similar parts, because it's likely if something failed or is close to failing, the other similar parts are about there too.

Greg

 

[Slow old poop]

IIf I were doing this all over again, here is what I would do:Greg

I agree with all that, but I would add: REPLACE THE WIRING HARNESS!!!

Remember that a 1G is up to 18 years old, and the wiring harness has been subjected to oil, heat, water, salt, corrosion, vibration, amateur electricians, stereos--you name it. Also,you never know what the previous owners did to the wiring.

We spent two years sorting my car, and most of our problems were electrical. This includes water temperature leads, fan wires, O2 sensor, fuel injector wires, power sources, grounds, etc. We bypassed the wiring harness so many times it looks like a wiring rainbow in there. We never figured out why the temperature lead to the ECU didn't work, and wound up engineering a kludge with resistors so the ECU thought the engine was always at 200F (we did this at the track, no less! Thank gawd for Radio Shack being open on Sunday). And I had two electrical engineers and an electrician in my crew.

If I was doing it all over again with a 1G, the first thing I would do is replace the wiring harness with new. It don't cost that much, and it eliminates headaches at the track.

 

[my_precious]

ok here is the problem with new guys in racing. remember, racing is expensive. if you start worrying about your car and how you can make it better, you spend all your money into the car and dont do alot of racing, which is fine. I know i've spent a ton on mine (for how much I make) and well, i guess its not all regretted.

I read through this thread a bit and there are talks of foam filling chassis to bolt in cages and strut bars and what not. For autocross, a cage is definately not needed and will only slow you down due to the weight added. Foam filling will be a huge mess but maybe that doesnt matter to you idk.

however, as far as how to get started in racing, whether it be fun factor or intently trying to compete and get good, the first year is gonna be completely n00b. I think before you spend ANY money on your car, you should buy a helmet. Open face IMO because your in a car, you will want to have the extra bit of site that a closed face will take away from you. However, at track days you'll see people drive some open wheel cars, that have two seats...might keep that in mind.

and here is my solution to cheap track days and fun and also much needed learning. Do what I did and find the closest tracks near you. then visit them. talk to the people there see what goes on. Being there sheds so much light on the subject. Also, if you dont have a helmet borrow one. If not from a friend, then small talk to people and you'll be able to find one im sure.

and now for the secret: ask people for rides. No joke, I've been to a few track days with nothing but a way to get there and i've rode in some fantastic cars. Going to a Driver's school can be free too. You'll find that many tracks will have a driver's school put on by clubs that usually costs 200-300 bucks for a day or two day event, and they teach you how to drive round a track. if you dont pay, thats ok. you wont be able to drive, but if you talk to people, you CAN get in.

I attended a couple different driver's training days put on by a lotus club here in michigan. Thanks to the guys at Autoeurope, i was able to even ride in mutliple elise's and other cars during the times i went. doing a track walk, being described the line, seeing the track up close and then being in a car and seeing the line is HUGE. you learn so much just from that. Of course there isnt one perfect line to take, but multiple ones, which you will eventually learn from years of experience. the point is, you can learn the "line" in a truck for all I care. it doesnt have to be sporty at all.

Think of racing in this way. Instead of making the car faster, stronger, more reliable, etc...try to make YOU faster, stronger, more dependable. Work out, do endurance training, and more importantly, invest all you can in seat time. It doesnt have to be something insane or sporty, just a seat. I've learned a ton just from riding shotgun with a good driver. Knowing the line doesnt have to be behind a wheel. Also, look at great racing drivers. They can hop into anything and blast off a hotlap. There will always be a faster car out there, so modifying the car for racing has to be something you HAVE to do, rather than want to do (so to speak) because you should want to spend all your money on time.

I've learned this the hard way. I've gone through the car maitenence wise and im still not finished. I've been on track, but ive never driven because my car has never been properly ready for it. Autocross is great too, ive been to them and also volunteered alot at rally crosses. Thats also a good way to learn. Just being there means so much. Learning how things work is a big part of it.

Wow i've typed alot. Sorry for that, but i guess for cliff notes do this: Buy a helmet, go to track meets, talk to people about there cars, ask for rides, then learn. Simple, costs you 100-150 bucks, and you'll learn a ton and have a blast. Get your car so it passes a simple tech inspection, then apply the things you've learned to your own car. Get an instructor to ride along and tell you when to brake and turn in etc, and you'll learn a ton. Then, once you've got the basics, its just a matter of seat time on your own. And dont forget when somebody asks you for a ride, because of all the help people will give you along the way.


EDIT: i forgot to mention that even though autocross is very time consuming for the amount of seat time you get, so what? you dont just learn from being in the car. you can learn from other peopls technique and learn the ropes just by working. Also, autocrossing works on lower speed cornering and braking. its been said and is true that autocrossers make great road racers, but road racers make poor autocrossers. Do both so you are excellent in both highspeed and low speed maneuvering. I think both are very important, and also much fun.

 

[Ludachris]

I think this thread is getting a bit off topic. Nobody asked how to get started in racing, and though some might feel that modding the car too much too early is not necessary, this discussion was started to help point out what the weaknesses are for the 1G in regards to it being a good road race car. We all know the platform is old and newer cars have an immediate advantage. The question is, where does the 1G come up short.

Let's discuss that instead of the best way to get started in road racing. We already have threads talking about that. I think some people would just like to talk about ways to improve the 1G platform. What's wrong with that? I don't want to stifle good discussion on how we might be able to make our cars more competitive. And let's stop with the whole AutoX vs. Road Racing debate. Start a new thread for that if you want.